Who is "F."?? Take Two.
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Who is "F."?? Take Two.
This has been debated already, with a lot of people concluding that "F." the sadistic friend of the narrator of Beautiful Losers, is actually a doppleganger.
F. is supposed to be a French separatist. The thing is, I there is nothing "French" about the guy. He talks, thinks and acts like an Anglo, specifically a member of that elite. He was supposed to have been raised in an orphanage, with the narrator, who is an Anglo, which suggests it was an English orphanage... so then, how can he be French?
So who, really, is F.?
A Flaw in the novel?
Just a plain Fake?
Is his endorsement of separatist violence a "False Flag" operation, given that the FLQ at the time has been said by many to have been largely a creation of the RCMP?
I.e. agents provocateurs were set loose planting bombs under statues to create a "separatist threat" much as Al Qaeda has many suspicious ties to the CIA?
Did LC write F. originally written as an Anglocharacter? Did he change F.'s ethnicity in the editing, maybe at the request of his Toronto publishers, who wanted certain secrets to remain secret in the interest of "national security"?
Just a few theories.
F. is supposed to be a French separatist. The thing is, I there is nothing "French" about the guy. He talks, thinks and acts like an Anglo, specifically a member of that elite. He was supposed to have been raised in an orphanage, with the narrator, who is an Anglo, which suggests it was an English orphanage... so then, how can he be French?
So who, really, is F.?
A Flaw in the novel?
Just a plain Fake?
Is his endorsement of separatist violence a "False Flag" operation, given that the FLQ at the time has been said by many to have been largely a creation of the RCMP?
I.e. agents provocateurs were set loose planting bombs under statues to create a "separatist threat" much as Al Qaeda has many suspicious ties to the CIA?
Did LC write F. originally written as an Anglocharacter? Did he change F.'s ethnicity in the editing, maybe at the request of his Toronto publishers, who wanted certain secrets to remain secret in the interest of "national security"?
Just a few theories.
Give me land, lots of land
Under starry skies above
Under starry skies above
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F. is a character composed with a lot of different stuff, all reflecting, but like a mirror, a truth of the environment of the narrator.
FLQ was real, as well as the French Canadian separatist mouvement, though the majority of separatists did (still don't) agree with violent means to do it as they say they are living in a democracy, so they want to do it the democratic way and they want to leave (and live) in peace. So FLQ was a tiny group of hot heads and bombs are things that make noise. The majority of independentists were not agreing with the violence and they would have tamed the felquists themselves according to many people.
Now what happened during this time... the army invading the place, the "false flag operations" indeed, there was an abuse of power, a kind of sadistic one for a witness.
Now, I just saw on the news yesterday a video of a Brit guy of the Brit army in Iraq (was it in Iraq?) having like what seems to me to be an orgasm while encouraging his men to hit some Iraquian guys they caught in a manifestation.
Power and the use of power seems to lead to abusing of this power. There is a certain pleasure in sadism.
Changing subject : I hope Leonard Cohen still owes the copyright of Beautiful Losers, because you will certainly make the sales raise humanponeysss2000 with all the interesting mysteries you are putting out of it.
It seems almost like a Da Vinci Code before Da Vinci Code.
FLQ was real, as well as the French Canadian separatist mouvement, though the majority of separatists did (still don't) agree with violent means to do it as they say they are living in a democracy, so they want to do it the democratic way and they want to leave (and live) in peace. So FLQ was a tiny group of hot heads and bombs are things that make noise. The majority of independentists were not agreing with the violence and they would have tamed the felquists themselves according to many people.
Now what happened during this time... the army invading the place, the "false flag operations" indeed, there was an abuse of power, a kind of sadistic one for a witness.
Now, I just saw on the news yesterday a video of a Brit guy of the Brit army in Iraq (was it in Iraq?) having like what seems to me to be an orgasm while encouraging his men to hit some Iraquian guys they caught in a manifestation.
Power and the use of power seems to lead to abusing of this power. There is a certain pleasure in sadism.
Changing subject : I hope Leonard Cohen still owes the copyright of Beautiful Losers, because you will certainly make the sales raise humanponeysss2000 with all the interesting mysteries you are putting out of it.
It seems almost like a Da Vinci Code before Da Vinci Code.

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F. and the FLQ
The FLQ was real, and had some support, but there also many reports of cells being created by police informers and people working for the police, to trap gullible young people. This is an old story, everywhere.
Also there are stories of separatists ending up in mental hospitals.
My hunch about F. is that he was based on some important psychiatrist, possibly Ewen Cameron. That would explain why he uses scientific jargon, is completely amoral, and why he gets his come-uppance by ending up in a psych ward.
Then -- I'm guessing - Cohen tried (in a clumsy, maybe last-minute way) to cover up his identity in case of legal problems, by making him French.
It's interesting that Cameron quit his job at the Allan in 1964 -- the same year Cohen began writing BL.
So: any bets??? My money is on Dr. Cameron as the evil F.
Also there are stories of separatists ending up in mental hospitals.
My hunch about F. is that he was based on some important psychiatrist, possibly Ewen Cameron. That would explain why he uses scientific jargon, is completely amoral, and why he gets his come-uppance by ending up in a psych ward.
Then -- I'm guessing - Cohen tried (in a clumsy, maybe last-minute way) to cover up his identity in case of legal problems, by making him French.
It's interesting that Cameron quit his job at the Allan in 1964 -- the same year Cohen began writing BL.
So: any bets??? My money is on Dr. Cameron as the evil F.
Give me land, lots of land
Under starry skies above
Under starry skies above
Source: viewtopic.php?p=59999#59999Geoffrey wrote:I may be wrong, but I think Irving Layton was 'F' in Beautiful Losers. His mother's pet name for him was 'Flamplatz' (Jewish for 'exploding flame') - something Leonard would have known. I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I haven't been able to read all of the recent messages.
And Geoffrey's back on this subject from this point in Irving Layton's thread: viewtopic.php?p=60449#60449
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
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"The FLQ was real, and had some support, but there also many reports of cells being created by police informers and people working for the police, to trap gullible young people. This is an old story, everywhere.
Also there are stories of separatists ending up in mental hospitals."
Yes. There is always secret operations "secret wars" during a war and/or a conflict (some call this strategy). Secret operations are known only (when it is known) well after the operations are finished and there is no need for the secret anymore.
Yes. Mental hospitals were used by all governments to take care of politic prisoners.
It happened in this page of History too.
And others unecessary cruel acts.
I'm sure it has to do with a sadistic pleasure also. Test this. Give an occasion for someone to unleash cruelty and destruction even if it is not necessary to solve a problem, they will jumb on the occasion to hit. They like that. Otherwise why the boxe shows will be so full? Why people would get all excited when hockey players are punching themselfs with blades and sticks? Why football matches are degenerating into a desctruction and violence fit? As this notion is new to me, I never consider sadism as a part of human mind, put as a kind of misfunctionment. Maybe it is. After all, put an insane person (with the flu, let say) in a group, it is likely that the sick person will pass the flu to the others and not the contrary (the healthy persons will pass "the health" to the sick one). So. Of course the fewer sick people the better the chances are that those people recovered and others stay healthy. And also if the healthy people are healing, chances are that the sick person will be "influenced" by them and grow healthy. This is a metaphor, of course. But it may explain this human cruelty that I can not explain.
I'll repeat I think F. is not somebody, but a forged character from many sides of a reality.
I let this discussion runs without me, though.
Also there are stories of separatists ending up in mental hospitals."
Yes. There is always secret operations "secret wars" during a war and/or a conflict (some call this strategy). Secret operations are known only (when it is known) well after the operations are finished and there is no need for the secret anymore.
Yes. Mental hospitals were used by all governments to take care of politic prisoners.
It happened in this page of History too.
And others unecessary cruel acts.
I'm sure it has to do with a sadistic pleasure also. Test this. Give an occasion for someone to unleash cruelty and destruction even if it is not necessary to solve a problem, they will jumb on the occasion to hit. They like that. Otherwise why the boxe shows will be so full? Why people would get all excited when hockey players are punching themselfs with blades and sticks? Why football matches are degenerating into a desctruction and violence fit? As this notion is new to me, I never consider sadism as a part of human mind, put as a kind of misfunctionment. Maybe it is. After all, put an insane person (with the flu, let say) in a group, it is likely that the sick person will pass the flu to the others and not the contrary (the healthy persons will pass "the health" to the sick one). So. Of course the fewer sick people the better the chances are that those people recovered and others stay healthy. And also if the healthy people are healing, chances are that the sick person will be "influenced" by them and grow healthy. This is a metaphor, of course. But it may explain this human cruelty that I can not explain.
I'll repeat I think F. is not somebody, but a forged character from many sides of a reality.
I let this discussion runs without me, though.
I agree that he is not somebody. Of course - he's a fictional character in a novel.
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
(precaution: Although I have reduced this, a lot,
it still winds its way to its point in a very round-about way.
(But it does have a point.))
February, 1968, was the coldest, cruelest month of my life.
At the start of the month I was on leave from ITR, for 2 weeks.
After which I went UA (aka AWOL) for the rest of the month.
And I stayed at about two dozen different people's places.
Smoked their pot, dropped their acid, listened to their records,
read their books. Fed my head on everything going down.
And I had 2 or 3 more leaves that year,
which continued on in the same style of experiences.
The whole year was "Feliniesque" for me.
The albums that were the constant background music of
that year were, of course, remarkable. I started listing
them here, but that's hopeless. Perhaps - just perhaps
- the 3 that left the strongest impression on me
were Astral Weeks, John Wesley Harding,
and Songs Of Leonard Cohen.
Songs Of Leonard Cohen made a strong impression on
everybody I knew. And many of them immediately went
out and bought LC's books. And I read those books, or
read in them, way back then. And it is my eternal shame
to have to confess that I remember almost nothing of them
from that time, other than the covers, and some weird-assed
associations of some of the topics in them with things
that were happening in my own life.
In my defense, there were an awful lot of other things I was
trying desperately to absorb and comprehend at the same time.
I read The Alexandria Quartet, and had to associate all the
characters in it with people I knew. And The Velvet Underground's
"Venus In Furs", which led me to read Leopold von Sacher-Masoch's
"Venus In Furs", also had personal associations for me.
The dedication "To S.A." in T.E. Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom",
I interpreted as "SAndy", a friend of mine. (Which, for a reason
I never quite got, quite pissed off Frank.)
And so on.
I also remember the liner-notes in Dylan's "John Wesley Harding"
Notice that all of Dylan's suggestions there as to who "the key" is
begin with the letter "F".
And I can not have been the only one who,
even if only for an instant , - and even if it took
being under the influence of, ... -well, - of something,
(which i'd admit, if I could rember) - thought that, maybe,
- just maybe, - Dylan also read Beautiful Losers.
And tried to guess who "F." was.
Because "F." in BLs is obviously "the key".
On the other hand, "Frank", who was one of the 3 or 4
people I spent about half my time with on those leaves,
seemed to me to be the most likely candidate for "F." in BLs,
as well as "the key" to Dylan's album.
You see, I had to figure all this out.
And the idea of actually researching Cohen's and Dylan's lives,
like A. J. Weberman, and thousands of others since then,
in order to figure out who in Dylan's and Cohen's personal lives
corresponded to this and that character in the works,
would have struck me, back then, not only as utterly insane,
but absolutely disgusting. These works were for us
to project the characters of our own lives onto.
In order to help us better navigate our own lives.
And it is not for us to feel we own the authors,
-- with bits of crass gossip!
~
For different reasons most of my male friends in those
years after high school had absent fathers. And the notion
of a father figure or father substitute was an explicit topic
for us. We chose them mostly from books and movies,
characters like Donleavy's "The Ginger Man".
And T.E. Lawrence, for example, was a hero for one of us,
- who, I believe, wound up enlisting, on account of "The Mint".
And so on.
My father was in Vietnam, in a non-military connection
(he was director of the bi-national center, USIS,)
and the few times he came home on his leaves
he made a strong impression on my friends, - who had been
spending a lot of time in his house (- and sort of, actually,
living there sometimes). So I wasn't the only one
who had been trying to understand him, or feel him, through
his "effects", -his books and records and other things
that he'd left behind in the house. (The vast number of 78s
were mostly opera, but I listened more to the Brahms
and Satie. And his vast number of books were on everything,
or so it seemed to me at the time, but I'll mention just
his large set of Carlyle, because that's what made me
think that he also thought of history in terms of "the hero".)
~
I know my father's name.
But I almost never think of it.
I always think of him, in my mind,
and refer to him for others, - as "my father".
Now, Leonard Cohen's father died when Leonard was 9.
And Ira Nadel mentions that:
Now, I consider it a certainty that the abbreviation "F." in Beautiful Losers
originated as "Flamplatz", = "Irving Layton".
And, --since LC & IL were a couple of wild and crazy guys,
-- it is possible that LC may simply have been memorializing
their friendship by means of that abbreviation.
But, ---LC must also have given some thought,
--and probably some considerable thought,
as to the probable effect his using that abbreviation
would actually have on his readers.
And the one thing that I can not believe is that LC was actually
hoping that his readers would think of "F." as a kind of "scavenger hunt"
to be worked out from hints in his biographies,
and then, ultimately, solved, once and for all.
(- it reminds me of the "definitive screwball comedy"
- the social satire: My Man Godfrey, from 1936:
I think Cohen used the abbreviation "F." for a number of reasons.
-- It is a literary device, that creates an aura of autobiography about a book,
the implication being that it's somebody real who's identity is being protected.
-- It creates a constant state of tension in us as to what "F." actually stands for,
which helps, subtly, to keep our attention.
-- It remains wide open to the reader to cast his own personal projections
onto, in a way no more specific, necessarily arbitrary name, can do.
However, and in in conclusion, I want to point out
that Irving Layton was also a father figure to LC.
And even back then, in 1968, I thought that "F."
was probably an abbreviation for "Father",
or "Father figure".
And now that I know more, now that I've re-read TFG,
I think that maybe,
--just maybe,
Leonard Cohen himself felt something uncanny about the symbol "F."
As if it were incomplete in some way.
Like the remnant of something,
Like a scar.
Like a scar left in the place of an absent word.
Which maybe, just maybe, was the word: "Father".
it still winds its way to its point in a very round-about way.
(But it does have a point.))
February, 1968, was the coldest, cruelest month of my life.
At the start of the month I was on leave from ITR, for 2 weeks.
After which I went UA (aka AWOL) for the rest of the month.
And I stayed at about two dozen different people's places.
Smoked their pot, dropped their acid, listened to their records,
read their books. Fed my head on everything going down.
And I had 2 or 3 more leaves that year,
which continued on in the same style of experiences.
The whole year was "Feliniesque" for me.
The albums that were the constant background music of
that year were, of course, remarkable. I started listing
them here, but that's hopeless. Perhaps - just perhaps
- the 3 that left the strongest impression on me
were Astral Weeks, John Wesley Harding,
and Songs Of Leonard Cohen.
Songs Of Leonard Cohen made a strong impression on
everybody I knew. And many of them immediately went
out and bought LC's books. And I read those books, or
read in them, way back then. And it is my eternal shame
to have to confess that I remember almost nothing of them
from that time, other than the covers, and some weird-assed
associations of some of the topics in them with things
that were happening in my own life.
In my defense, there were an awful lot of other things I was
trying desperately to absorb and comprehend at the same time.
I read The Alexandria Quartet, and had to associate all the
characters in it with people I knew. And The Velvet Underground's
"Venus In Furs", which led me to read Leopold von Sacher-Masoch's
"Venus In Furs", also had personal associations for me.
The dedication "To S.A." in T.E. Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom",
I interpreted as "SAndy", a friend of mine. (Which, for a reason
I never quite got, quite pissed off Frank.)
And so on.
I also remember the liner-notes in Dylan's "John Wesley Harding"
"The key".There were three kings and a jolly three too.
The first one had a broken nose, the second, a broken arm
and the third was broke.
"Faith is the key!" said the first king.
"No, froth is the key!" said the second.
"You're both wrong," said the third, "the key is Frank!"
Notice that all of Dylan's suggestions there as to who "the key" is
begin with the letter "F".
And I can not have been the only one who,
even if only for an instant , - and even if it took
being under the influence of, ... -well, - of something,
(which i'd admit, if I could rember) - thought that, maybe,
- just maybe, - Dylan also read Beautiful Losers.
And tried to guess who "F." was.
Because "F." in BLs is obviously "the key".
On the other hand, "Frank", who was one of the 3 or 4
people I spent about half my time with on those leaves,
seemed to me to be the most likely candidate for "F." in BLs,
as well as "the key" to Dylan's album.
You see, I had to figure all this out.
And the idea of actually researching Cohen's and Dylan's lives,
like A. J. Weberman, and thousands of others since then,
in order to figure out who in Dylan's and Cohen's personal lives
corresponded to this and that character in the works,
would have struck me, back then, not only as utterly insane,
but absolutely disgusting. These works were for us
to project the characters of our own lives onto.
In order to help us better navigate our own lives.
And it is not for us to feel we own the authors,
-- with bits of crass gossip!
~
For different reasons most of my male friends in those
years after high school had absent fathers. And the notion
of a father figure or father substitute was an explicit topic
for us. We chose them mostly from books and movies,
characters like Donleavy's "The Ginger Man".
And T.E. Lawrence, for example, was a hero for one of us,
- who, I believe, wound up enlisting, on account of "The Mint".
And so on.
My father was in Vietnam, in a non-military connection
(he was director of the bi-national center, USIS,)
and the few times he came home on his leaves
he made a strong impression on my friends, - who had been
spending a lot of time in his house (- and sort of, actually,
living there sometimes). So I wasn't the only one
who had been trying to understand him, or feel him, through
his "effects", -his books and records and other things
that he'd left behind in the house. (The vast number of 78s
were mostly opera, but I listened more to the Brahms
and Satie. And his vast number of books were on everything,
or so it seemed to me at the time, but I'll mention just
his large set of Carlyle, because that's what made me
think that he also thought of history in terms of "the hero".)
~
I know my father's name.
But I almost never think of it.
I always think of him, in my mind,
and refer to him for others, - as "my father".
Now, Leonard Cohen's father died when Leonard was 9.
And Ira Nadel mentions that:
~At McGill, one of Cohen's surviving essays is on death;
ironically, Cohen emphasizes the lack of its effect on him,
although he concludes by reversing that attitude:
"Death is a tragedy and whether it strikes at an
eight-year-old youngster ... or a senile old man,
a scar is always left on one ... of the survivors
- a scar that does not heal quickly." (qtd. in Dorman 48-49).
Later, he would write that
"A scar is what happens when the word is made flesh"
(Favorite Game 3)."
Now, I consider it a certainty that the abbreviation "F." in Beautiful Losers
originated as "Flamplatz", = "Irving Layton".
And, --since LC & IL were a couple of wild and crazy guys,
-- it is possible that LC may simply have been memorializing
their friendship by means of that abbreviation.
But, ---LC must also have given some thought,
--and probably some considerable thought,
as to the probable effect his using that abbreviation
would actually have on his readers.
And the one thing that I can not believe is that LC was actually
hoping that his readers would think of "F." as a kind of "scavenger hunt"
to be worked out from hints in his biographies,
and then, ultimately, solved, once and for all.
(- it reminds me of the "definitive screwball comedy"
- the social satire: My Man Godfrey, from 1936:
)Godfrey: That's fine. Do you mind telling me just what a scavenger hunt is?
Irene: (in a breathless tempo, she makes an innocently-cruel statement)
Well, a scavenger hunt is exactly like a treasure hunt, except in a treasure hunt
you try to find something you want and in a scavenger hunt, you try to find
something that nobody wants.
Godfrey: Hmmm, like a forgotten man?
Irene: That's right, and the one that wins gets a prize. Only there really isn't
a prize. It's just the honor of winning, because all the money goes to charity,
that is, if there's any money left over, but then there never is.
I think Cohen used the abbreviation "F." for a number of reasons.
-- It is a literary device, that creates an aura of autobiography about a book,
the implication being that it's somebody real who's identity is being protected.
-- It creates a constant state of tension in us as to what "F." actually stands for,
which helps, subtly, to keep our attention.
-- It remains wide open to the reader to cast his own personal projections
onto, in a way no more specific, necessarily arbitrary name, can do.
However, and in in conclusion, I want to point out
that Irving Layton was also a father figure to LC.
And even back then, in 1968, I thought that "F."
was probably an abbreviation for "Father",
or "Father figure".
And now that I know more, now that I've re-read TFG,
I think that maybe,
--just maybe,
Leonard Cohen himself felt something uncanny about the symbol "F."
As if it were incomplete in some way.
Like the remnant of something,
Like a scar.
Like a scar left in the place of an absent word.
Which maybe, just maybe, was the word: "Father".
Dear Greg ~
Your open, sharing, very well thought out explanation moves solidly in the direction of "Father" aka "Irving Layton," what seems a likely melding. The absentee father is an issue that would be relevant to Leonard, as it is to you. The characteristics of F being mentioned seem in keeping with its being Layton. I enjoyed the way you spelled out the details and then deftly pulled them together. I can understand your thinking on Leonard's not considering the character F to be subjected to a scavenger hunt, as you've noted. I also feel that Leonard knew too many, real-life characters to have to rely on a fictional character, when there was a real person he could symbolically weave into his story for commemoration. I'm much more inclined to believe that F lived and breathed here, rather than his being a tool for reflection.
It's ironic to me the high degree of sharing about yourself that you're incorporating into these discussions... I recall someone [Bee?] once chiding you for hiding behind quotes. Well, no more, Baby Blue...
I don't feel that Ann's conjecture regarding the psychiatrist is scavenger hunt material, however; it seems very 'considered' in the way I read it.
Extremely interesting discussion here on all this ~ not at all out of place, I'd say, since this is the work that will be the topic of many discussions after Leonard has gone. It feels good to read substantive explorations of Leonard's work like this.
~ Lizzy
Your open, sharing, very well thought out explanation moves solidly in the direction of "Father" aka "Irving Layton," what seems a likely melding. The absentee father is an issue that would be relevant to Leonard, as it is to you. The characteristics of F being mentioned seem in keeping with its being Layton. I enjoyed the way you spelled out the details and then deftly pulled them together. I can understand your thinking on Leonard's not considering the character F to be subjected to a scavenger hunt, as you've noted. I also feel that Leonard knew too many, real-life characters to have to rely on a fictional character, when there was a real person he could symbolically weave into his story for commemoration. I'm much more inclined to believe that F lived and breathed here, rather than his being a tool for reflection.
It's ironic to me the high degree of sharing about yourself that you're incorporating into these discussions... I recall someone [Bee?] once chiding you for hiding behind quotes. Well, no more, Baby Blue...
I don't feel that Ann's conjecture regarding the psychiatrist is scavenger hunt material, however; it seems very 'considered' in the way I read it.
Extremely interesting discussion here on all this ~ not at all out of place, I'd say, since this is the work that will be the topic of many discussions after Leonard has gone. It feels good to read substantive explorations of Leonard's work like this.
~ Lizzy
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- Contact:
Irving "F." Layton
Well, Greg, now I feel I know you a little better. Thanks for that Fugue in F minor... or major.
As for moi, my rational mind tells me that F. is probably a composite of a number of possible Father Figures in Cohein's youth.
His dad was in the military, according to Nadel.
That might have made young Leonard more inclined to associate Dads with authoritarian personalities, which F. definitely is -- and also caused him to be ambivalent about those F-figures.
I met Irving Layton a couple of times, and although he projected a certain fierceness in public, he was nothing like the cold, calculating, psychopath in BL.
I see F. as a deluded product of science and logic gone berserk -- and Layton was humane, generous, emotional .. not to mention argumentative of course.
So, the fact is, I don't know, but F. is a liar, a cheat, a wife-stealer who -- in the end -- is defeated by a Danish vibrator. Not much of a man at all, if you ask moi...
"Absent father" -- well, that's interesting. Military dads are absent, almost by definition, because their allegiance is elsewhere, you might say they are serving false gods, leaving their kids to pick up the pieces. As you describe so well.
Same goes for politicians and priests -- all Judases -- and Jesuits are of course the other bad guys of BL.
Jesuits were also deeply into a secret contract with MKULTRA -- trading in orphans and aboriginal kids... I felt I needed to add that.
I am beginning to believe there really is no such thing as Fiction!
As for moi, my rational mind tells me that F. is probably a composite of a number of possible Father Figures in Cohein's youth.
His dad was in the military, according to Nadel.
That might have made young Leonard more inclined to associate Dads with authoritarian personalities, which F. definitely is -- and also caused him to be ambivalent about those F-figures.
I met Irving Layton a couple of times, and although he projected a certain fierceness in public, he was nothing like the cold, calculating, psychopath in BL.
I see F. as a deluded product of science and logic gone berserk -- and Layton was humane, generous, emotional .. not to mention argumentative of course.
So, the fact is, I don't know, but F. is a liar, a cheat, a wife-stealer who -- in the end -- is defeated by a Danish vibrator. Not much of a man at all, if you ask moi...
"Absent father" -- well, that's interesting. Military dads are absent, almost by definition, because their allegiance is elsewhere, you might say they are serving false gods, leaving their kids to pick up the pieces. As you describe so well.
Same goes for politicians and priests -- all Judases -- and Jesuits are of course the other bad guys of BL.
Jesuits were also deeply into a secret contract with MKULTRA -- trading in orphans and aboriginal kids... I felt I needed to add that.
I am beginning to believe there really is no such thing as Fiction!
Give me land, lots of land
Under starry skies above
Under starry skies above
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I am not sure.Ann wrote: "Absent father" -- well, that's interesting.
Military dads are absent, almost by definition,
because their allegiance is elsewhere, you might say
they are serving false gods, leaving their kids
to pick up the pieces. As you describe so well.
But I get the feeling that you got the wrong impression,
about a couple of things in what I wrote.
First, about my father.
My father was never in the military (-except in WWII).
And he'd be very offended if anyone said he was.
At the time I mentioned he was in the State Department,
(USIS = United States Information Service) in Vietnam,
directing the bi-national center. Which was about teaching
English and US culture to Vietnamese.
And his family was always with him
(- until Feb 7, 1965, when all US dependants were evacuated
from Vietnam.)
(Which, incidentally, reminds me,
My first impression of Buddhism was seeing
a monk in Saigon immolate himself, become a black cinder,
and topple over.
And on account of that I am inclined to take
Jikan's apparent aplomb, in the face of his current
financial situation, as genuine.)
So anyway, through no fault of his own, my father
just wasn't available to me at that critical time in my life,
at the end of high school, and just after. Which was
a real pity for me, because he was an excellent father.
And not at all authoritarian.
For example, when I began refusing to take orders in the service,
I was afraid that it might, somehow, negatively impact his career
in the state department. And the cherry-point CO knew
that I was concerned about that. (Because everything
I told the chaplain in confidence, the chaplain told the CO.)
So the CO got my father to come down to the brig,
believing that my father would, or would try,
to talk me out of doing what I was doing.
And my father, first of all, assure me that my actions
were not going to affect his career in any way.
And second, that he knew that what I was doing, I was doing
out of conscience, and for no other reason.
And third, that however this turned out, he was just worried about one thing.
Which was, --since I hadn't finished college, --and since I was now determined
to not finish service, --that, in the future, I should watch out about getting
into the habit of simply not finishing things.
Which wasn't the way the CO wanted that to go, at all.
I doubt there've ever been very many fathers,
- and certainly not in those times, - as supportive as that.
Again, I didn't get enough of that kind of wisdom when it counted most.
But that wasn't my father's fault.
...I want to say more...
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USIS
I had never heard of USIS until reading your post a moment ago.
Then, completely by coincidence, I came across an article mentioning USIS: http://www.rense.com/general69/carl.htm
Of course, Rense.com is kind of a wacko website, but I was bored and looking for something about Dick Cheney.
I would think working for the US State Department is not that far from being in the military. At least in terms of the secrecy, oaths of loyalty, and so on.
Your father sounds like a very decent, honest man. But teaching US culture to the Vietnamese is something an occupying power does. It's not an entirely friendly act, is what I am saying.
I guess my point (if I really have one) is that our lives have become entangled with the agendas of so many agencies, and military values especially secrecy and deception are so widespread, that it's almost impossible to know the truth about ourselves anymore -- was it ever?
Something as personal as one's childhood can have strangers's foot and fingerprints all over it...
I think I'll just leave that hanging there, for now.
Then, completely by coincidence, I came across an article mentioning USIS: http://www.rense.com/general69/carl.htm
Of course, Rense.com is kind of a wacko website, but I was bored and looking for something about Dick Cheney.
I would think working for the US State Department is not that far from being in the military. At least in terms of the secrecy, oaths of loyalty, and so on.
Your father sounds like a very decent, honest man. But teaching US culture to the Vietnamese is something an occupying power does. It's not an entirely friendly act, is what I am saying.
I guess my point (if I really have one) is that our lives have become entangled with the agendas of so many agencies, and military values especially secrecy and deception are so widespread, that it's almost impossible to know the truth about ourselves anymore -- was it ever?
Something as personal as one's childhood can have strangers's foot and fingerprints all over it...
I think I'll just leave that hanging there, for now.
Give me land, lots of land
Under starry skies above
Under starry skies above
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With all my respect for both your chilhood and your opinion in regard of F. (I'm not cynic, in case it could look like that, here. I'm serious. I'm not ligthly jokink either. It happens sometimes) I must add.
Not only stangers, unfortunately, not only strangers.
As "Moi" is a part of "Nous". And as "Moi" is a being meant to live with other beings, this relationship with others and the living creatures of the world, and the nature, is to be observed also.
All this excessive sexual and emotional repression of the last "civilised" centuries- this is twisted. This is what maybe leads to some sooooo twisted sexual and/or emotional behaviors from all members of "civilised" society?
There is "a prayer" (like Cohen said) in BL for such a reflexion. This is what I saw.
Just a thought.
Be well people!
Not only stangers, unfortunately, not only strangers.

As "Moi" is a part of "Nous". And as "Moi" is a being meant to live with other beings, this relationship with others and the living creatures of the world, and the nature, is to be observed also.
All this excessive sexual and emotional repression of the last "civilised" centuries- this is twisted. This is what maybe leads to some sooooo twisted sexual and/or emotional behaviors from all members of "civilised" society?
There is "a prayer" (like Cohen said) in BL for such a reflexion. This is what I saw.
Just a thought.
Be well people!

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Flamplatz
I just wanted to add another piece of anecdotal "gossip".
I hadn't known Irving's mother's Yiddish nickname for him was Flamplatz. It could also mean, I guess, "Fireplace"
Kenneth Hertz, the poet I mentioned, who told me he had been in LSD experiments at McGill, once told me Irving was the central figure and mentor for a group of young men in Montreal who wrote poetry, dabbled in drug, the kabbala, channelling, ESP, out of body states, and all kinds of other experiments that drove quite a few of them crazy.
He told me, "We used to say that Irving Layton gave us fire."
He meant this, obviously, as some kind of spiritual transmission.
F. is for Fire, too. And flames tend to spread, sometimes out of control, and there are many cases of "acid burn-out" who ended up in hospital.
Fire also associates with electricity. Electroshock burned out people's brains. The 20th century was the electrical age. Josef Mengele, like many Nazis, was fascinated with electricity, in fact some believed they could commune with Nordic gods of lightning. The SS symbol looks like two lightning bolts.
The literal translation of the holocaust is: burnt offering.
There's a theme here: so what is it?
Playing with Fire... culminating in Auschwitz, Hiroshima. The energies of war that run out of control, wrecking the lives of human beings. Napalm, scorch and burn, chemical warfaire, as well as the energies of anger, revenge that run rampant in our society
And then there's "creative fire" that can change into arrogance.
In the Wizard of Oz, the wicked witch of the West is neutralized by water.
So everything in balance, right. Every element has its dark and its positive side.
I hadn't known Irving's mother's Yiddish nickname for him was Flamplatz. It could also mean, I guess, "Fireplace"
Kenneth Hertz, the poet I mentioned, who told me he had been in LSD experiments at McGill, once told me Irving was the central figure and mentor for a group of young men in Montreal who wrote poetry, dabbled in drug, the kabbala, channelling, ESP, out of body states, and all kinds of other experiments that drove quite a few of them crazy.
He told me, "We used to say that Irving Layton gave us fire."
He meant this, obviously, as some kind of spiritual transmission.
F. is for Fire, too. And flames tend to spread, sometimes out of control, and there are many cases of "acid burn-out" who ended up in hospital.
Fire also associates with electricity. Electroshock burned out people's brains. The 20th century was the electrical age. Josef Mengele, like many Nazis, was fascinated with electricity, in fact some believed they could commune with Nordic gods of lightning. The SS symbol looks like two lightning bolts.
The literal translation of the holocaust is: burnt offering.
There's a theme here: so what is it?
Playing with Fire... culminating in Auschwitz, Hiroshima. The energies of war that run out of control, wrecking the lives of human beings. Napalm, scorch and burn, chemical warfaire, as well as the energies of anger, revenge that run rampant in our society
And then there's "creative fire" that can change into arrogance.
In the Wizard of Oz, the wicked witch of the West is neutralized by water.
So everything in balance, right. Every element has its dark and its positive side.
Give me land, lots of land
Under starry skies above
Under starry skies above