This isn't a poem.
Inspired by a comment about words, and laziness of youth on the muffins/war thread, I've decided to post this, and see if we can discuss it-
Where does a word exist?
Does it exist in the sound?
Does it exist in the spelling?
Is outta any less of a word than out of? (two words)
Doesn't outta convey the same message, and take up less space?
Is it laziness that evolved out of into outta?
or is outta just the spelling of that concept?
I'm (I am) grabbing my dictionary and digging a trench-
?????
Word War I
-
Joe Kaczmarek
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:01 pm
- Location: Brooklyn, NY
I don't know about now, but years ago the prevailing attitude of Linguistics studies was that a language is as it is used - if enough people use a term and understand it's meaning it becomes common and the language changes. A language is dynamic - it has to be to keep up with new concepts, new social and technological etc developments. If it stays static it dies - like Latin.
"Linguistics is neutral in the argument that to throw him with a stone is the incorrect variant of to throw a stone at him"
Although English is spoken in many countries the day to day usage differs - I'm not sure that many Americans or Brits would understand some of South Africa's street language and the same goes for Australian English. When there are other "official" languages (as in i.a Canada, Switzerland) those languages influence the English used there differently.
This appeared in our local papers recently as a fairly mild example:
I was in the dwang after the kêrels bust me and a chommie with insangu.
Jo
"Linguistics is neutral in the argument that to throw him with a stone is the incorrect variant of to throw a stone at him"
Although English is spoken in many countries the day to day usage differs - I'm not sure that many Americans or Brits would understand some of South Africa's street language and the same goes for Australian English. When there are other "official" languages (as in i.a Canada, Switzerland) those languages influence the English used there differently.
This appeared in our local papers recently as a fairly mild example:
I was in the dwang after the kêrels bust me and a chommie with insangu.
Jo
"... to make a pale imitation of reality with twenty-six juggled letters"
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
hi Joe,
it was not long time ago when I was asking myself the same questions with which you've started this posting...
and may be I am the last person who should make any comments here about English language, because you know why...
I've already explained about my poor English and so on...but I really would like to share this here...
Unfortunately, I agree with Jo that the linguistics should be very flexible, but what kind of thought's came to me?...that English words and may not only, but this from any other language as well, are much more impressive when they are written on a paper...let say in a book... compared with the same words written on a TV screen...and I was asking myself if it's like that only for me or it's the same for others?...and for example the words from the book are provoking your imagination and your memories, your senses...sometimes even they provoke you to write something... I don't really know why and how, but words written on a paper has their own power and let say their own "fragrance."..the same thing I can say about this example of out to or otta...if I should choose I'll never try the shorter variant...why? Because they have different "fragrance" for me...
so, I think, the words exist through the powerful impact that have over our Mind with their sound, which is coming from their spelling and let's not forget their meaning as well...
Iubita
it was not long time ago when I was asking myself the same questions with which you've started this posting...
and may be I am the last person who should make any comments here about English language, because you know why...
I've already explained about my poor English and so on...but I really would like to share this here...Unfortunately, I agree with Jo that the linguistics should be very flexible, but what kind of thought's came to me?...that English words and may not only, but this from any other language as well, are much more impressive when they are written on a paper...let say in a book... compared with the same words written on a TV screen...and I was asking myself if it's like that only for me or it's the same for others?...and for example the words from the book are provoking your imagination and your memories, your senses...sometimes even they provoke you to write something... I don't really know why and how, but words written on a paper has their own power and let say their own "fragrance."..the same thing I can say about this example of out to or otta...if I should choose I'll never try the shorter variant...why? Because they have different "fragrance" for me...
so, I think, the words exist through the powerful impact that have over our Mind with their sound, which is coming from their spelling and let's not forget their meaning as well...
Iubita
Love, Light
-
Joe Kaczmarek
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:01 pm
- Location: Brooklyn, NY
You both make strong, valid points.
I agree with Jo that languages are dynamic and change-
And with Iubita-
written word is different from spoken word.
I don't think Latin is dead though.
Many of the words we use every day are derived from Latin. So, in a sense, we are still
speaking it.
Jo, can you translate that sentence from the South African newspaper into
American?
I agree with Jo that languages are dynamic and change-
And with Iubita-
written word is different from spoken word.
I don't think Latin is dead though.
Many of the words we use every day are derived from Latin. So, in a sense, we are still
speaking it.
Jo, can you translate that sentence from the South African newspaper into
American?
I was in the dwang after the kêrels bust me and a chommie with insangu.
I was in trouble after the cops found me and a friend with marijuana.
Derived yes - but we don't use it as a living language - but in a way you are right - we use latin expressions often - such as viz. (videlicit - namely; i.a (inter alia - amongst others) alea jacta est (the die is cast ) etc. (et cetera - and so on) carpe diem (sieze the day) etc. etc.
And yes - formal language that one uses when writing books or reading speeches is very different to what we use in everyday speech (the chatroom included)..... I'm sure we all remember the more formal nursery rhymes we used to recite for the fun of the difference:
Scintillate scintillate globule vivific
Fain would I fathom your nature specific
Loftily poised in the ether capacious
Strongly resembling a gem carbonaceous.
Translation:
Twinkle twinkle little star
How I wonder what you are
Up above the sky so high
Like a diamond in the sky.
I was in trouble after the cops found me and a friend with marijuana.
Derived yes - but we don't use it as a living language - but in a way you are right - we use latin expressions often - such as viz. (videlicit - namely; i.a (inter alia - amongst others) alea jacta est (the die is cast
) etc. (et cetera - and so on) carpe diem (sieze the day) etc. etc. And yes - formal language that one uses when writing books or reading speeches is very different to what we use in everyday speech (the chatroom included)..... I'm sure we all remember the more formal nursery rhymes we used to recite for the fun of the difference:
Scintillate scintillate globule vivific
Fain would I fathom your nature specific
Loftily poised in the ether capacious
Strongly resembling a gem carbonaceous.
Translation:
Twinkle twinkle little star
How I wonder what you are
Up above the sky so high
Like a diamond in the sky.
"... to make a pale imitation of reality with twenty-six juggled letters"
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
-
Joe Kaczmarek
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:01 pm
- Location: Brooklyn, NY
Un petit d'un petit
S'etonne aux Halles
Un petit d'un petit
Ah! degres te fallent
Indolent qui ne sort cesse
Indolent qui ne se mene
Qu'importe un petit d'un petit
Tout Gai de Reguennes
from Mots d'heures: Gousses, Rames (The d'Antin Mauscript)
apologies for missing out some of the accents on some of the e's ( I don't know how to type in french)..it doesn't lose the effect though
Pete
S'etonne aux Halles
Un petit d'un petit
Ah! degres te fallent
Indolent qui ne sort cesse
Indolent qui ne se mene
Qu'importe un petit d'un petit
Tout Gai de Reguennes
from Mots d'heures: Gousses, Rames (The d'Antin Mauscript)
apologies for missing out some of the accents on some of the e's ( I don't know how to type in french)..it doesn't lose the effect though
Pete
My take on it is that with some words, some people like to type them phonetically to give a better sense of someone speaking. We so often don't speak with the diction of the written word. Such is the case with "outta." In fact, some passages of dialogue and entire narrations in books are written as such, for the very same reason.
To go a little further with it, as life evolves, so does language. With the sole purpose of words being to communicate, if any particular combination of letters/symbols is successful in communicating, then they have passed the acid test and hence, ex-post-facto, organically emerged as a word. After a certain point, they may even become "officially" recognized as such. What the criteria for that may be, I have no idea. It may even differ according to the various publishers of dictionaries, reference and handbooks. Common usage plays a part, yet until that point of recognition occurs, the word has certainly been accepted as such by those using it
. I have found that some words new to the scene communicate even more effectively than those from which they were derived.
Judith Fitzgerald's writing is exemplar of this reality. Her writing is not only more multi-rayed, rainbow colourful; but it is kaleidoscopically enhanced with layered meaning, as well. The reading and usage of words can be satisfying, as well as fun. Why not make it so, when the patenting of words is restricted to no one.
To go a little further with it, as life evolves, so does language. With the sole purpose of words being to communicate, if any particular combination of letters/symbols is successful in communicating, then they have passed the acid test and hence, ex-post-facto, organically emerged as a word. After a certain point, they may even become "officially" recognized as such. What the criteria for that may be, I have no idea. It may even differ according to the various publishers of dictionaries, reference and handbooks. Common usage plays a part, yet until that point of recognition occurs, the word has certainly been accepted as such by those using it
. I have found that some words new to the scene communicate even more effectively than those from which they were derived. Judith Fitzgerald's writing is exemplar of this reality. Her writing is not only more multi-rayed, rainbow colourful; but it is kaleidoscopically enhanced with layered meaning, as well. The reading and usage of words can be satisfying, as well as fun. Why not make it so, when the patenting of words is restricted to no one.
Last edited by lizzytysh on Tue Jul 15, 2003 3:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
Hi Kush ~
So, you don't agree with Judith's theories on Ten New Songs. "I have never read so much bullshit in my life..." ~ this seems a bit of an extreme way of saying it. Of course, you could always be wrong with regard to her theories, too.
As for what I meant with the words, I actually was thinking of other writings of hers. She's written a whole lot more than her analysis of TNS, both formally and informally.
~ Elizabeth
So, you don't agree with Judith's theories on Ten New Songs. "I have never read so much bullshit in my life..." ~ this seems a bit of an extreme way of saying it. Of course, you could always be wrong with regard to her theories, too.
As for what I meant with the words, I actually was thinking of other writings of hers. She's written a whole lot more than her analysis of TNS, both formally and informally.
~ Elizabeth
-
Joe Kaczmarek
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:01 pm
- Location: Brooklyn, NY
Howdy cobbers. 
Jeeze mate, I mean; stone the crows. Soun's like some of you geezers 'ave swallered a diction'ry!! Crikey! I could 'ardly berlieve me eyes when I read some o' this d'scusssion. 
That twinkle twinkle yarn. I tell yer mates, I damn near pissed meself I larfed so hard at that one. I said to me mate Dave, I said, "Dave feast yer road maps on this one it's a real beaute mate"! We was so tickled we jus' rolled about the floor until we had to have a real blue when we was both tryin' to get to the dunny ter releeve ourselves. Any way we got on the dog an' bone to call Ferret and git "im to join us for a few tinnies. Well he brought a few of the gang with 'im so we chucked a few prawns an' some snags on the barbie and ended up havin' a rip snorter of show eh? Lawd we got so pissed that most of us passed out on the carpet after a technicolour yawn to the sweet serenades of Cold Chisel. Yep we 'ad a great night awright an it all started wif "scintillate globule"
Thanks to you jokers we had a real good chuckle!!! He he he
Cheers, an' have one on me! Bazza.
Jeeze mate, I mean; stone the crows. Soun's like some of you geezers 'ave swallered a diction'ry!! Crikey! I could 'ardly berlieve me eyes when I read some o' this d'scusssion. That twinkle twinkle yarn. I tell yer mates, I damn near pissed meself I larfed so hard at that one. I said to me mate Dave, I said, "Dave feast yer road maps on this one it's a real beaute mate"! We was so tickled we jus' rolled about the floor until we had to have a real blue when we was both tryin' to get to the dunny ter releeve ourselves. Any way we got on the dog an' bone to call Ferret and git "im to join us for a few tinnies. Well he brought a few of the gang with 'im so we chucked a few prawns an' some snags on the barbie and ended up havin' a rip snorter of show eh? Lawd we got so pissed that most of us passed out on the carpet after a technicolour yawn to the sweet serenades of Cold Chisel. Yep we 'ad a great night awright an it all started wif "scintillate globule" Thanks to you jokers we had a real good chuckle!!! He he he
Cheers, an' have one on me! Bazza.
It may not be that often that I am moved to use strong language but JF is one person that really ticks me off...or her writing does. Please.....do not dignify that article by calling it "her theories". They are not......they are castles in vaccuum with no foundation. There has to be a fine line between politesse and accountability/quality control. I have read her other stuff on LC's work and I'd rather not say what I think of it. I think I was being mild when I said "bullshit". Her own stuff may be better but as I have zero respect for her I have no wish to read it.
And unlike the Correspondent Formerly Known as Partisan, I actually like TNS very much.
There must be a middle way on this forum between this "you are wonderful, Judith is wonderful, everything is wonderful" attitude and calling a spade a spade.
And unlike the Correspondent Formerly Known as Partisan, I actually like TNS very much.
There must be a middle way on this forum between this "you are wonderful, Judith is wonderful, everything is wonderful" attitude and calling a spade a spade.