http://www.leonardcohenforum.com/
(Being a neophyte, I'm not sure who the singer was but am trying to trace him down.)I agree. To make it worse, in Florida now, if you feel threatened, you have the right to fire.But times have changed. There is no longer a reasonable need for everyone to have a personal firearm.
Thank you so much for your response, Lizzy! I do believe you're right.lizzytysh wrote:It took me awhile, but I finally found the video you told about, Neophyte. As near as I can tell, it's the four Norwegians who are singing Hallelujah... it's one of the most poignant renderings I've heard and, in that, the best for this.
~ Lizzy
I never thought of them last night when I was searching and was so disappointed when I couldn't find a match. You're a great researcher---found the video on the MSNBC site? I agree with everyone that this song was most perfect for this sorrowful occasion. Thank you , Leonard.Yes, I did find it on the MSNBC site... however, an hour and eight minutes of looking makes me a rather lacklustre researcher, though clearly a determined one. There were a lot of possibilities and I met with many dead ends; yet, like YouTube, they seemed to produce other possibilities. I finally got there, though. I did some reading of various things, as I went, but it was mostly searching and watching.You're a great researcher---found the video on the MSNBC site?
Fla. Gun Law to Expand Leeway for Self-Defense
NRA to Promote Idea in Other States
By Manuel Roig-Franzia
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, April 26, 2005; Page A01
MIAMI -- It is either a Wild West revival, a return to the days of "shoot first and ask questions later," or a triumph for the "Castle Doctrine" -- the notion that enemies invade personal space at their peril.
Such dueling rhetoric marked the debate over a measure that Florida Gov. Jeb Bush (R) could sign as early as Tuesday. The legislation passed so emphatically that National Rifle Association backers plan to take it to statehouses across the nation, including Virginia's, over the next year. The law will let Floridians "meet force with force," erasing the "duty to retreat" when they fear for their lives outside of their homes, in their cars or businesses, or on the street.
NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre said in an interview that the Florida measure is the "first step of a multi-state strategy" that he hopes can capitalize on a political climate dominated by conservative opponents of gun control at the state and national levels.
"There's a big tailwind we have, moving from state legislature to state legislature," LaPierre said. "The South, the Midwest, everything they call 'flyover land' -- if John Kerry held a shotgun in that state, we can pass this law in that state."
The Florida measure says any person "has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm."
Florida law already lets residents defend themselves against attackers if they can prove they could not have escaped. The new law would allow them to use deadly force even if they could have fled and says that prosecutors must automatically presume that would-be victims feared for their lives if attacked.
The overwhelming vote margins and bipartisan support for the Florida gun bill -- it passed unanimously in the state Senate and was approved 94 to 20 in the state House, with nearly a dozen Democratic co-sponsors -- have alarmed some national gun-control advocates, who say a measure that made headlines in Florida slipped beneath their radar.
"I am in absolute shock," Sarah Brady, chair of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said in an interview. "If I had known about it, I would have been down there."
The lessons of history do not bode well for gun-control groups and their leaders, such as Brady, who became a crusader after President Ronald Reagan and her husband, then-White House press secretary James S. Brady, were seriously wounded in a 1981 assassination attempt.
Florida has a track record as a gun-law trendsetter. In the mid-1980s, the NRA chose Florida to launch a push for "conceal carry" or "right-to-carry" laws, which allow states to issue permits for residents to carry firearms. Democrat Bob Graham, who was then governor, vetoed the measure, but it was resurrected after he left office and was signed in 1987 by Gov. Bob Martinez, a Republican.
Is self-defense law vigilante justice?
Some say proposed laws can help deter gun violence. Others worry about deadly confrontations.
By Patrik Jonsson | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
ATLANTA – Instead of embracing a citizen's "duty to retreat" in the face of a physical attack, states may be taking cues from the days of lawless frontier towns, where non-deputized Americans were within their rights to hold the bad guys at bay with the threat of deadly force.
First enacted in Florida last year, "Stand Your Ground" bills are now being considered in 21 states including Georgia, according to the National Rifle Association and the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. The South Dakota senate approved one just last week.
These new measures would push the boundaries beyond the self-defense measures already on the books. Twelve states already allow citizens to shoot intruders in their homes, and 38 states permit concealed weapons in public places. The "Stand Your Ground" laws would allow people to defend themselves with deadly force even in public places when they perceive a life-threatening situation for themselves or others, and they would not be held accountable in criminal or civil court even if bystanders are injured.
Laws putting more judgment in an individual's hands stem from people's increased concern about crime in their communities. Proponents say it helps shift the debate from gun control to crime control,
"These laws send a more general message to society that public spaces belong to the public - and the public will protect [public places] rather than trying to run into the bathroom of the nearest Starbucks and hope the police show up," says David Kopel, director of the Independence Institute in Golden, Colo.
Some critics say such "Wild West" laws are vigilante justice, and commonplace confrontations and more likely turn to violence.
"You don't just broadly paint a new statewide law saying, if you're in doubt, go ahead and shoot and kill the other person," says Peter Hamm, spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence in Washington. "It's anathema to peace and calm in our communities."
Currently, Florida's new law is being tested for the first time. In Tampa, a tow- truck operator who shot and killed a man he said was trying to run him over used the "Stand Your Ground" law as a defense. The district attorney is evaluating other forensic evidence and eyewitness testimony that the shots came from behind, and therefore were not in self-defense.
To be sure, the laws challenge the notion of "duty to retreat" from attack upheld by many state supreme courts. Yet the US Supreme Court came down against the "duty to retreat" in a 1921 ruling.
In 2004, a National Academies of Science study was unable to draw any conclusions about whether owing a gun makes citizens safer.
About 35 percent of American homes contain some kind of firearm, according to Center for Gun Policy and Research at Johns Hopkins University. Their research also shows that while there are 1.3 million gun-related crimes committed in the US each year, guns are used for self-defense 108,000 times in the same period.
Indeed, those lobbying for the "Stand Your Ground" legislation say the proposed laws are more symbolic, sending a powerful message to would-be criminals. These laws "make it very clear that the good guy has the advantage, not the bad guy," says Wayne LaPierre, CEO of the National Rifle Association in Fairfax, Va.
However, many observers say the laws may promote gun violence as urban gangs could claim self-protection in the aftermath of shootouts. In Michigan this week, people protested a proposed "Stand Your Ground" law by wearing orange "innocent bystander" T-shirts. It came only a few days after an 8-year-old boy was killed in Detroit by a stray bullet from a gun fight.
"Stand Your Ground" laws could also change the way Americans deal with each other, some experts say.
"If you're in a state that's passed one of these laws, any time you're in a potential confrontation you'll have to think about the fact that, 'Will the fellow on the other side misunderstand my anger and pull out a gun?' " says Robert Batey, a law professor at Stetson University in St. Petersburg, Fla.
SOURCES: NATIONAL RIflE ASSOCIATION AND THE BRADY CAMPAIGN TO PREVENT GUN VIOLENCE; SCOTT WALLACE - STAFF
. . . and that these laws are part of the rugged individualism of Americans.
There is something called "emotional intelligence" and/or "emotional maturity" which is not given to people equally in this world.Birdonawire wrote:I personally find it difficult to believe (...)how this person really saw those he killed as the 'corrupted' ones. Could it be that he acted moreso out of feelings of jealously and isolation, rather than any sick form of misguided retribution?
I mean, to punish for not being perfect instead of finding solutions to problems). "It is not the gun that kills but the person holding it" What a demagogic statement!Birdonawire wrote:The U.S. gun laws must be changed. I understand well the argument from the advocates of the 'Freedom to bear arms' clause in the American Constitution, and that it is 'not the gun that kills, but the person holding it.' But times have changed. There is no longer a reasonable need for everyone to have a personal firearm. I agree that the responsibility lies with the holder of the gun and (obviously) not the weapon itself, but one must admit, ease of access to firearms is a, if not THE main contributing factor behind the SCALE of disasters such as this. It may seem obvious but if he did not have such easy access to firearms not nearly as many people's lives would be destroyed. (...)