leonardcohenforum.com

And some they swear
The messiah will come
They devote themselves to him
Start up web sites
Read texts and debate
But I grew up non-religious
Public school
Local hangouts
Beer, then wine
With no particular faith

And as I write
Rachmaninov is urging me
To believe in something
His piano serenades me
Yet I know the existence only
Of a reticent God
Who allows the murder
Of so much innocence
Who allows confusion
Amongst the races
Who allows the dollar
To be King

And whose messiah
Must come out of the junk heap
To have integrity
To know Love...

Wow, this is really really lovely!!!!!!!
Ah, very nicely put all this!!
Yeah, it's a delicate subject, but treated very good!
Religion should be a good thing, and it sometimes is (not that I'm religious), but a lot of the time people abuse it, and feel that having this sort of religion allows them to do negative towards other peoples visions. A lot of people abuse it... It devides people, it doesn't make them more open minded, a lot of the time...
I CAN appreciate it when it gives people support and hope and some guidance... that's what it's for...

I am really moved by your remarks. They are, in themselves, lovely. Although born a Jew, I don't really adhere to any particular religion. I follow Humanity. However, when you hear Leonard sing, 'your servant here he has been told to say it clear to say it cold, it's over it ain't going any further', you've got to wonder, "What's over and what servant?"

In peace

Boss

Boss wrote:I am really moved by your remarks. They are, in themselves, lovely. Although born a Jew, I don't really adhere to any particular religion. I follow Humanity. However, when you hear Leonard sing, 'your servant here he has been told to say it clear to say it cold, it's over it ain't going any further', you've got to wonder, "What's over and what servant?"

In peace

Boss

who is that in your icon/pic? I once pm'd you to ask but you didn't reply. I think I gathered you are male? so that would probably rule out it being yourself.

spread enlightenment, ta.

Who allows confusion
Amongst the races
Who allows the dollar
To be King

These are my favourite lines... At first I wasn't sure I understood this, but after a few times reading it, (I think) I understand now...

About that line 'the servant... it ain't going any further'...
I think what he meant is that there once was a messenger, according to a story, who said that the future would be very bad for us, if we would not change our lives (and start believing in a God).
I think, that Leonard might say earlier in the verse (You don't know me from the wind, you never will, you never did) that he finds it strange that people believe this, (hence the sarcastic way of saying things in this song) because this messenger was never identified, and never will (perhaps because it might not be true, but a tale). I guess he means the Bible with that.
Quite often religion removes you of your freedom instead of giving you more. A religion often has the tendency to say: believe this, or else...
When looking further at the lyrics, they all seem to sum up a sort of threatening. (your private life will suddenly explode, I've seen the future - it is murder). He also seems sarcastic in the song (no one left to torture)...

Hmmm... maybe it's complete nonsense what I wrote, but it did start me to think even more careful about that lyric, and I like that!

About the picture... We'll know when you tell us, but to let me guess: Maybe it IS a boy in the picture Boys in the seventies had long hair quite often. Hahaha... could be totally wrong of course!

Greetings, Stefan

Look back at my posts and you will find my name. Stefan is astute; 6 year old boys did have long hair in the seventies! To spread enlightenment is to speak from one's heart. I believe more dearly in a redeemer rather than money or smart arse forum posters.

Boss

Boss wrote:I believe more dearly in a redeemer rather than money or smart arse forum posters.

Could you please explain what you mean??

Hahaha... I thought I was right about the picture

Cohen Kid wrote:

Boss wrote:I believe more dearly in a redeemer rather than money or smart arse forum posters.

Could you please explain what you mean??

What I am implying is that I'd rather ruminate about a redeemer than spend my life embroiled in money - how to get, how to get - or read specific forum post writers who think they are so clever with their witticisms that are often not so funny and often mean so little.

Regards Boss

I understand now! Thanks!
I don't know exactly your reason to mention that point, but I know what you mean with it! Money is not everything!

People who are trying to look very intelligent can sometimes be boring yes...

There were some forums that I visited, but stopped posting because I thought it was irritating or boring, but obviously this forum isn't one of them. Though I have to admit that people who like Leonard are often quite litterate kind of people, so I sometimes have some problem with understanding some posts in this forum...
So sorry if I ask sometimes for an explanation of what someone's actually saying! I'm Dutch! hahahah

Greetings, stefan

Hi Boss,

With regards to your last paragraph, it would seem that a messianic
figure capable of universal expansion of heartfelt understandings
would not necessarily have to arise from the "junk heap."
Such a person would transcend our ordinary mindsets and, therefore,
would negate any "integrity" issues that we presently hold, including
those that arise from any preconceptions that may or not pan out.

On a more micro level, i.e. personal transformation, the "junk heap"
place of origin would hold entirely true. Prior to the messianic age,
where this occurs, the "integrity" issues overcome are highly personal
and experiential and getting out of the "junk heap," is not only
credible, as the person KNOWS the change(s) first hand, it is more
appreciated, for many reasons, including being able to contrast
the before and after.

G'day Steven,

You write so fluently, so well even I have trouble sometimes and I'm not Dutch! What I assume you're saying in your first paragraph is that a messiah would 'not necessarily have to arise from the junk heap'. However you go on to suggest that such a one as this 'on a more personal level' would benefit such a transformation. He would learn, through pain and difficulty empathy for others. This is what I meant about the 'junk yard'. How else can one bring the world to a new state of consciousness, a new awareness? How could he know suffering if he was given Porsches and nursed through college? The messiah will be well acquainted with hardship. Just listen closely to Leonard's The Future, there are references to it everywhere. You wouldn't like it baby, you wouldn't like it here. There ain't no entertainment and the judgements are severe. I think Leonard was acting as a harbinger for the messiah in this particular album. Just a thought.

Take it easy Steven

Boss

Hi Boss,

I "fluently" and "well" wrote an unclear reply to you. It was a failing
on my part to communicate properly. Sorry about that.

The first paragraph of the post was referring to a particular messiah
that by his own authority and resources is said to have the capacity
to transform the entire world. The "micro level" spoken of in the
second paragraph, should, but didn't make it clear that this wasn't
speaking of "The" messiah of worldwide dimensions. Rather, I was
thinking of the potential of any person, even prior to a messianic age, to
achieve a level of enlightenment (positive transformation or
self-actualization). In the second paragraph, the individual is the
source of his/her own salvation (not discounting the power of faith,
when it is present for some).

Your speaking of empathy as coming from personal pain and difficulty,
isn't alien to some interpretations of biblical literature. "A man of
sorrows..." is spoken of by Isaiah. More commonly among Jews,
it is thought to be a depiction of the people of Israel's travails and
their particular plan in the messianic scenario. Christians tend to
view this suffering picture as a depiction of Jesus. It would seem
plausible, that a person with Messianic, supernatural capacities would
be able to fully connect with others, whether or not his own personal
experience mirrored the depths that others have suffered. In non-
messianic, ordinary people terms, people can't have empathy for others
unless they connect with similar stuff within themselves. So, your
point on this is well taken.

As for the "Porsches" and "nursing through college," it's not unlikely
that people who have the vehicles and this college experience
find luxuries and coddling to ultimately be more of a curse (source of
suffering) to them than a blessing.

Different cultures speak of a messiah that will rescue humanity from
difficulties of its own making. I hear what you are saying about "The
Future." The consequences of the dire state of affairs that Leonard
speaks of are of proportions commensurate to messianic attention.

Thanks for the chance to think about these things.

Thank you for the same reason.

One of the most valuable traits the messiah will have will be empathy. And one of the most useful things He could affirm is that He will die some day.

Boss

Hi Boss,

I wonder why you feel that the messiah affirming his mortality would
be "one of the most useful things" to affirm. Is it that his doing so
would humanize him in his kingship and also allow maximum
focus to be on his everlasting legacy?

G'day Steven,

It would clarify the human dimension as you suggest. As I've just today read in a recent Leonard Cohen interview, he believes that there will be nothing left of him after his death. I think it fair to say Leonard Cohen's legacy will be everlasting. And I think that too of a messiah...

I assume the messiah will be fully human; will be conceived the same way, will be born the same way and will die the same way - that is my point. It has taken evolution millions of years for Life to develop as we have it now. Many animals and humans have come and gone. In my mind there have never been, are none and will never be miracle births, reincarnations or resurrections. We all, all of us, come and go like the others. We are men of Nature, so will he be. Unfortunately we just need a leader now and although I only have a vague idea of world religions, I feel the time is right. Our current position is hopeless. We can't look to our governments - as Leonard sings, the widowhood of every government in "Anthem". The birth betrayed, the marriage spent and on it goes. He is coming...

I tried to answer your question, I hope it wasn't in vain.

Boss