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Is it fair to criticize poems?

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:52 am
by Sandra
If we like some poem we can say it.......if we don´t we better keep silence...

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 6:40 am
by lizzytysh
Hi Sandra,

I understand exactly what you are saying with this. One of the things that was part of the general "culture" that I grew up in was the saying, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." Now, you can look at this as being gracious, or being phoney. Both perspectives have merit. There are times when you really need to just go ahead and say un-nice things. Hopefully, those times aren't often. However, when it comes to a person's poetry, I feel that's a very personal part of themselves/their being that they have accessed and drawn from to get those particular words onto paper. Then to place those words on a public forum is a huge act of vulnerability. When someone has chosen to make themselves vulnerable, I have no desire to stomp on them or their feelings.

I feel that respect for them is as important as my opinion might be to them. Ultimately, they are the one who wrote the poem, and for them, their intended feelings may still be coming through loud and clear, whether I get it or not, and whether they care whether I get it or not. I guess the thing to do would be for people to indicate whether they're interested in feedback or critiqueing. I would be if I were placing mine [my non-existent cache, that is] here. However, I'm not going to presume that with others....or at least I hope I'm not. I prefer to focus on what I feel are the strengths therein. Unless I'm asked to Edit something....and then the person will [I hope!] set their ego and feelings aside.

Lizzytysh

To Liz

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 10:49 am
by George.Wright
Welcome Liz
and very nice words of wisdom on the subject of poetry
Poetry is an expression of the heart and soul of an individual at a certain time
Georges

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:29 pm
by lizzytysh
Hi Georges...Thanks.

Lizzytysh

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:00 pm
by Jon
Yes, it's fair!

Lie snug, to hear what critics say.
And if you find the general vogue
Pronounces you a stupid rogue,
Damns all your thought as low and little,
Be still, and swallow down your spittle.
Be silent as a politician,
For talking may beget suspicion;
Or praise the judgment of the town,
And help yourself to run it down

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:12 pm
by lizzytysh
Hi Jon....Great little [and cute] ditty regarding the topic. I've worked for two politicians and worked in the campaign camps of several others; rarely known any to be silent. Speaking of oxymorons...... :)

Lizzytysh

mmmmmm

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2002 2:50 am
by Sandra
Hello!
I did not express myself well when I said criticize I meant to use scorn or make the other feel ridiculous......
To say right or wrong is correct........with caring words......

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2002 3:22 am
by lizzytysh
Excellent distinctions, Sandra. To criticize and critique are quite different, as well. I agree with you. No one [or remarkably few] begins as an excellent [or even good] poet. It takes practice like everything else. The scorn can kill the spirit. As I say this, I'm thinking of the resiliency of Ev's in the face of some of the unfair, mean-spirited things that have been said to him.....and can only question the quality of the poetry [if any] that was being written by the one[s] commenting when they were 16. And to that I say, keep on writing, Ev!

~Lizzytysh

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:14 pm
by lizzytysh
Hey Everyone....I wasn't really sure where to put this, so decided to put it here. I learned about everseradio [and subscribed to it] through Bobbie Chalou. This is an excerpt from today's [daily ~ can't remember whether it's 5 or 7 days a week, as the man who does it took some time off and basically just returned]. I really like it and hope you do, too. The remainder has to do with "C" words, etc. Some really cool stuff shows up here. The link is: everseradio@earthlink.net. Check it out and think about subscribing. Today's "subject line" quote is:

"Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it." - Tallulah Bankhead

Now, this is the excerpt:

"Paul Blackburn
Statement

My poetry may not be typically American, or at least in matter, not
solely so: but I think it does make use of certain techniques which, even
when not invented by American poets, find their particular exponents
there in contemporary letters, from Pound & Doctor Williams, to younger
writers like Paul Carroll or Duncan or Creeley.

Techniques of juxtaposition.
Techniques of speech rhythms,
sometimes very intense,
sometimes developed slowly, as
one would have
conversation with a friend.

Personally, I affirm two things:
the possibility of warmth & contact
in the human relationship :
as juxtaposed against the materialistic pig of a technological world,
where relationships are only "useful" i.e., exploited, either
psychologically or materially.

20, the possibility of s o n g
within that world: which is like saying 'yes' to sunlight.

On the matter of song: I believe there must be a return toward the
musical structure of poetry, just as there must be, for certain people at
least, a return to warmth within a relationship.

However impractical that may seem in a society controlled in some of its
most intimate aspects by monstrous, which are totally irresponsible,
corporations, organized for the greatest gain of the most profit: and whose
natural growth, like that of any organism, is toward monopoly,
self-support, self-completion, self-
perpetuation,
and eventually self-competition and self-destruction.

In a world that is so quickly losing its individuals, it can only be the
individuals who persist, who can work any change of direction, i.e. control
the machines, or destroy them.

Machines can be very beneficent as means

to a better
(materially better)
life, as either
democratizing or socializing agents.
But as a means to control for the limited number of men who now own them,

but the president or general manager of the corporation
really owns nothing but his own salary (and his power) so that
even the controlling minds of these gigantic corporate machines
are irresponsible. That is, not subject to the effects
of their own decisions)

(and
the personnel, the individuals
are replaceable, all the way to the top. The machine, the organisation, has
itself created the position and will function without the individual, has,
in that sense created the person to fill the 'p o s i t i o n'
and its own needs) so that
when, in these upper reaches, the 'organisation' the machine itself
becomes master, it can only mean disaster, global and particular.

I do not claim that a greater frequency of rhyme than is now made use of
in American poetry will, in time, set things right.

Only that if a man could sing the poems his poets write

-- and could understand them -- and if

the poets would sing something from their guts, rather than
the queasy contents of same,
then that man would stand a better
chance, of being a whole man, than
him who stands or sits and says but 'Yes' all day.

Enough man to stand where it is necessary to take a stand.

To give
and man enough to receive, LOVE,
when he finds it offered.

To take the sun and the goods of the earth, while it lasts.
and to
fight in whatever way he can
the monstrous machines that try, and will try, to

o b l i t e r a t e him, for

$1 more.

from The Parallel Voyages, Sun-Gemini Press, 1987. Copyright © Paul Blackburn 1954, 1987"

~Lizzytysh

poetry

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:38 pm
by Sandra
Hello Lizzytysh :)
Your comment is a very pertinent and interesting point
Thank you.....

Re: Is it fair to criticize poems?

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:41 pm
by Lazysuit
Looks like this this thread died ten years ago...can I re-open it? I think it's interesting. I wouldn't like to diss anyones poetry here, online, detatched. It seems cowardly and cruel. But, were I to have my poetry dissed, I would like it to be here, by relative strangers. By Leonard Cohen devotees - you know - high standards.

Anyway. I'm new here and i'm just browsing. I've only read one poem that I thought was very good so far. But does it matter? My favourite poets are Robert Smith, Iggy Pop, Geezer Butler, Mick and Keef, Cave, Justin Sullivan, Bob and Leonard...you'll probably disagree on all but the last two so it doesn't matter if I don't like your poems...thank you for having the courage to share them here. I'll put one of mine up soon with a specific request that people say it's shite if they think it's shite. And my thoughts on this thread is no, we should not put some one down unless they specifically say they are comfortable with it.

Love and peace brothers and sisters x

Re: Is it fair to criticize poems?

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:46 pm
by Lazysuit
AAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! How did I leave Shane Macgowan, Spider Stacey, Andrew Ranken, Jem Finer, Terry Woods and James Fearnley and while we're here Joe Strummer out of my lst of fav -oh and John Cooper Clarke - ourite poets

Stop me! This list could grow....

Re: Is it fair to criticize poems?

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:19 am
by Cate
I don't know if it's fair to criticize poems. That's just mean, after all it's not the poems fault he's written that way. Critics on the other hand can be useful - new eyes, a different perspective.

I'm glad that this came up actually - I was going to post this in another thread a few days ago and then worried that would be straying to far from the original thread.

'One of the reasons why I like fish and this forum even, is that when I posted what was about my third attempt at ever writing a poem (my first time sharing anything) he gave me an honest critic. I’m kinda used to people just being nice to me and he was, but he was also honest! honesty softened a bit with humour. ‘This is okay, this is okay – like that line … oh no no no that’s not good - get rid of that’ (probably made a joke to soften the critique a bit). It wasn’t about me at all – it was about what I had been trying to do and allowing me to see how I might do it a bit better ... learn from it. That honesty helped me get over the shyness of posting – if people are just nice to you you don’t really know what they think and let’s face it you can usually pick up on somebody just trying to be nice.

Not everyone likes to be critiqued and that's fine but personally I appreciate when somebody actually takes the time to do so.

Re: Is it fair to criticize poems?

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:27 am
by Cate
Lazysuit wrote: Stop me! This list could grow....
Stop - these are lyricists, great song writers and I bet a great number of them also write poetry but I'm not sure it's the same thing. The poem I Stepped into an Avalanche is quite different then the song Avalanche.

Re: Is it fair to criticize poems?

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:00 am
by lizzytysh
agree on the value of critics and genuine criticism. it's every bit as instructive if one bypasses the road of mean-spiritedness, though. much more likely to have a positive, growth-oriented impact. a cardinal rule is often to show respect, and no reason for that to be abandoned because you're on an online forum of amateur poetry writers... if anything, more reason to show respect, as some might be bolstered and toughened by the nastiness, but most are more likely to just fade and be reluctant to try again

the one you've referenced/'quoted' is not the norm in substance or style

how can one go wrong in showing respect?