leonardcohenforum.com

http://www.ranska.net/poetes-finlandais/

For those of you who read French (I saw many French poems, here, I find those poems very pretty and interesting.) They are translated from Finnish. I feel that translation brings something new to a language, adds to it what comes from the original, a touch of wow. I like very much the majority of the poems of this site. They are brief and clear like I like.

I also like the 'wow' element that seems to so often occur, when someone writes in a language second to their original. I see it in poems, as in prose. It adds soooo much charm, and more often than not still makes sense in a more literal, and wonderful way.

Of course, since I don't know French, I won't be able to appreciate this, particular site .

Hum... Lz you seem to be so very sure that because you master English better than me, you undestand everything better than I do. Only what is written is written, and 3/4 of your deliciously carved sentences when they fly at the level of your caricature-of-woman wit, are full of emptiness.

Many more beautiful things are writing in fewer words, even in from-your-point-of-view-not-correct-written-sentences.

I don't expect that you will go to the core of this post (or whatever post it is, by the way), I expect from you that it will be just another occasion for you to discharge an enormous empty verbiage and kindergarden fight to "win". To tell you the truth, by now, I'm convinced that you are a sick woman. I have compassion for sick people. But sometimes a sickness is too much to endure even for the most compassionate people. Also I am not very patient, that does not help.

So go on dear, go on chasing after all of my posts on the board to write your little words of nothing until exhaustion. But please forgive me in advance if I do not answer.

But please forgive me in advance if I do not answer.

You just did .
The same as you returned to the thread you claimed to have abandoned .
All this, whilst suggesting that other, truthful people are liars. Imagine .

Now ~ As to whatever this protracted [above] mess is on about, it's a pitiful and pitiable shame that you lack the ability to recognize that I am not one to carry on with grudges [life is too short]. Of course, there's no instant evidence that you might be .

If your concept of "sick" is:

~ Not holding grudges
~ Being attracted to something that includes the word "Interesting"
~ Preferring pleasant to unpleasant exchanges
~ Recognizing and appreciating how beautiful the unintendedly-nuanced words written and spoken by others, who are using words not of their native language can be
~ Checking out a link someone posts, thinking that, perhaps, English might appear somewhere there, as well
~ Expressing regret that I wouldn't be able to engage in it, after all

Well ~ Tchoc ~ Please do all within your power to ensure my lifelong residency in that sanitarium .


Meanwhile, please don't fancy that you warrant my chasing after you, anywhere; or that all things said relate to you personally ~ that's ego-centered, magical thinking. I try to read all posts and respond, if inclined, when I can. You just happen to be here, like everyone else. My comments had at their base any number of people, whose writing I remember very fondly. You didn't even cross my mind in that. You only triggered my thoughts with the 'wow' aspect.

Whatever the rest you've written is intended to relate to, I have no idea. However, since it appears to reflect something roiling about inside you, I'll leave it alone. I've obviously held up some kind of mirror for you. It's not a pretty sight .

Please stay well, Tchoc. See you around the Forum. Yes, I will be speaking again, so you might as well prepare for it .

I'm leaving now. You're not going to follow me, are you ?

~ Lizzy

What you are doing to me right now (and sometimes to others in other circumstances) is rather sick or evil, Lz. There is or other words in any languages.

I hope sane and good people will not be happy to just read your prose and believe it because you are writting good English, have good manners and answering every post like if this board was your private blog, interpreting whatever you want in any way you want, on the spot, without giving a second thought, without a shadow of a wisdom, in your sole way, for the glory of your ego.

I trust other people to be able to use their common sense.

***

This said, folks, allow me to copy here the purpose of this thread :

http://www.ranska.net/poetes-finlandais/

Very interesting material, for peotry lovers.

Hi Tchoc ~

OK, so you did follow me, despite pronouncements to the contrary .

Misquoting and misrepresenting me all the way, whilst getting tangled up in that extension cord you drag along, for the spotlight on your own, dismal lack of observation.

*******************************************************

You said: "What you are doing to me right now (and sometimes to others in other circumstances) is rather sick or evil, Lz."

I say: You appear to have become discombobulated by my coming to the defense of my friends, in detail, via repetition of your own words, with some of mine added in commentary; and then going on with my life. I won't call what you're doing right now "rather sick or evil," but I will call it discombobulated.

I say: You appeared to enjoy the smear campaign you conducted, for them "to realize it was a necessary thing to do and you gain to have done this exercise." Not only was it not a "necesssary . . . exercise" [the latest, politically-correct, sanitized term for 'smear campaign'?] ~ it was totally uncalled for; and a reasonable, detailed response to it has appeared to left you dazed and confused. Not a "gain" for them; and a net loss for you.

I say: To speak positively on some things [what I, in fact, was doing ~ and not even directed to you] "is rather sick or evil" ~ interesting, hyperbolic comment from someone who likes to keep things stirred, just for the heck of it.


*********************************************************

You said: "writting good English, have good manners"

I say: Well, now there's a flaw I could be working on. Perhaps, you know someone here who could lead me in the direction I should be going?

**********************************************************

You said: "and answering every post like if this board was your private blog"

I actually said: "I try to read all posts and respond, if inclined, when I can"

I now say: Not only did you miss on what I said. You also miss on what I do. I'd certainly do better on keeping up if this were my own, private blog.

*********************************************************

You said: "interpreting whatever you want in any way you want"

I say: Yes, I will continue to do this. That's why my mind and my experiences are for ~ still, I take those thoughts and experiences of others into account, as I interpret.

*********************************************************

You said: "on the spot, without giving a second thought"

I say: Hmmm. So you portend to keep track of my timetables, too?

< * watch that cord * >

********************************************************

You said: "without a shadow of a wisdom, in your sole way, for the glory of your ego . . . I trust other people to be able to use their common sense."

I say: I'll trust to the "sane and good people" to make their own decisions on those matters, using their own common sense, which I trust, as well. It appears there may be a Tchoc Standard for what gets shared, a standard I must be in reckless disregard of.

**********************************************************

Well, Tchoc ~ I won't say you've gone over the edge, just yet; but you're appearing perilously close. You're missing, altogether, the fact [those little items you insist that people keep in mind] that I had just 'gone on,' as I do ~ commenting on what interests or touches me in some way, and that I have a moment for sharing my thoughts on.

Perhaps, you also feel I shouldn't have commented on Leonard's recovery of his things, just because you had gone there and commented first; oooorrrr, that my own comments lacked the merit of yours!?!

Not really sure what's going on with you right now, Tchoc. You've expressed some paranoic attitudes in the past as to how you're perceived and accepted here; and I've always re-enforced that you are appreciated and welcome. It seems now that, perhaps, you'd like me to join you in your paranoic den? Sorry. I prefer the sunlight. I'll continue to trust in those good and sane people.

By the way, in response to your final comment ~ I'm a poetry lover, and that site link didn't do me a lick o' good ~ it would be interesting, I'm sure, however, for poetry lovers who read Finnish or French.


Serious regards,
Elizabeth

This exchange is especially silly...

No thread is "owned" by the writer. I have left several threads that I could have felt were hijacked by other writers, sometimes the subject matter was personal. So what? Threads are a conversation, and conversations often go in different directions as they evolve.

Lizzy is a nice person who adds alot to this community. So what if sometimes she leaves comments that others may not see value in? There's no law that says that one has to read everything. If you feel she treats this as her blog, again, do you pay to participate? How does this meaningfully detract from your overall experience here? I think it's worthwhile to look at the reasons for your feelings, vs. attacking another forum member.

I would suggest that the ranting over Lizzy is what caused this thread to detour, not Lizzy's post.

I did not read your post Lz. I take the break I asked in the other one that you do not agree to give to me or to anybody else, despite my asking.

Notheless, I allow myself to take it though. I just want to tell you that for now I do not read you out or respect I think I owe to people.

John K, Lz is a nice person. Well. I think about her in those terms, usually. It happens that a nice person does not always act in the best ways. Please separate the person from the behaviros.

It is not a question of "owning" a thread, it is a question of respect. Real one. What you are doing here is harassment. I don't know if you are a nice guy or not, but this is not very appealing to me.

Reading how you are going, right now, I don't think that you give a damn
for respect.

Please continue to go on insulting everybody, being sure that you are on the good side, with all your alter egos.

The fact that you truly look like fools help me to endure your harassment.

Thanks.

Have a nice thread.

"Follow me the wise man said
But he walked behind."

Perhaps I'm blind to this, but I see nothing in my post that constitutes harrassment or disrespect. Tc, you referred to Lizzy's posts as "sick or evil", hmmm.

And I was very specific as to behavior vs. person.

And I do not "insult everybody" nor do I have "alter egos".

Feel free to elaborate, but I urge you to be specific as to things I've written. I'm open to the learning.

Best wishes,

John K.

La liaison avec l'assassin est coupée
avant même qu'il ne commette son forfait.
Je repose l'écouteur: il est noir,
lourd, sans entrave comme le nombre 40.
Je bois désormais mon café d'une autre façon,
je le bois avant qu'il n'y en ait plus

Viivoitettu uni (Sommeil surligné), 1996.
Traduites du finnois par Gabriel Rebourcet.

***

I'm following, you wise man, check behind!

John K. in my eyes, this is all reliated to internet communication.

Is the murderer can go in Court saying, your Honor, this is the responsibility of the knife/gun/any-kind-of-mean? A pood jugdment would have the judge who judges that OK, yes, put the blame on the knife.

Internet is a fast mean of communication, in general everybody has the finger much more too heavy and quick on the submit button. They don't take the time to really know what they are doing/talking about.

Sometimes it kills the communication.

Some say forum are a superficial mean of communication, because of this. Some people think they have to conform to this. I saw many people lost their "normal" personality. I don't blame the mean. I question the use of it.

Now for this teenaged-street-gang use of forum, which is the archaic culture of forum on Internet, which, usually, consist to vomit - in most brilliant ways as possible, sometimes, to show the gallery how great one is - on other posters, than eat this vomit and vomit it again, and eat it, and vomit eat, in an infinite insane circle, as refine as the vomit may become at some point, it does stay vomit. And that disgusts me.

This kind of decadence I am not interested into, and I don't think either that all posters here are. I don't feel a victim of trolling posts, they just gremlin into communication, more or less annoying. Some people have interesting things to share in all kinds of manners, I prefer to read them.

I think many people are depressed, and this is just another arguments in favour of taking more time and care to communicate in a respectuous manner. That does not imply seriouness all the time. To laugh with or to laugh of a person makes all the difference in term of respect.

Now I have time to loose here, it is obvious. I take my time.

I'll finish by the advice any wise parent gives to his/her teens when they claim that "all others are doing it". Well, don't be the one who follows other, then, be the one who others follow.


****

Les soldats n'aiment pas ce qui est rond, ni les réponses, ni les pensées,
ni les têtes rondes: si une armée attaque sur une planète ronde
et pousse trop loin son avantage, elle finit sans le savoir par s'enfoncer la
baïonnette dans le dos. Voilà pourquoi la terre des soldats est le Cube,
dont ils ont colonisé la face obscure.
A partir de cette base il est facile de distinguer l'ennemi:
il est noir, blanc ou coloré.
Et ceux qui sont transparents
sont les membres creux de la gent militaire



Viivoitettu uni (Sommeil surligné), 1996.
Traduites du finnois par Gabriel Rebourcet.


Source : http://www.ranska.net/poetes-finlandais/

Tc - To quote the things I'll comment on...

Tchocolatl wrote: I'm following, you wise man, check behind!

Now for this teenaged-street-gang use of forum, which is the archaic culture of forum on Internet, which, usually, consist to vomit - in most brilliant ways as possible, sometimes, to show the gallery how great one is - on other posters, than eat this vomit and vomit it again, and eat it, and vomit eat, in an infinite insane circle, as refine as the vomit may become at some point, it does stay vomit. And that disgusts me.

I'll finish by the advice any wise parent gives to his/her teens when they claim that "all others are doing it". Well, don't be the one who follows other, then, be the one who others follow.

Actually, I was referring to myself being the one to follow you, so thanks for the advice!

I agree with your comments on the use of the forum, however as they say here in America "one man's trash is another man's treasure". In other words, it's all subjective.

And thanks again for the advice!

Best wishes,

John K.

John K. wrote :

"Actually, I was referring to myself being the one to follow you, so thanks for the advice!" (...) "In other words, it's all subjective."

How could you open with such a quote about myself if it is not for provocation? So I had understood very well and answered in the same way.

This is not all subjectivity.

You see. Both of us have volontarily agreed to stop playing fool with one another. This is so obvious when one is "subjective" and when one is not respectful to others.

Anyway.

kiss-cheek-kiss/cheek/kiss-cheek-See you later alligator.

***

Another wonderful poem from this site :

Vous êtes ici : Finlande > Poètes contemporains finlandais > ANNI SUMARI > Oiseaux


Oiseaux


I

Oiseaux,
astronautes ailés,
mages égrenant dans la nuit leurs légendes et leurs scies!
Il arrive au même moment trois tragiques erreurs,
trois hamartia, comme dirait Aristote:
la fusée vainc la force d'attraction terrestre,
l'oiseau s'oriente d'après les étoiles et la configuration du sol
et le solitaire parle dans son rêve,
fait gémir le lit où il se tourne.

L'esprit de l'homme
est un formidable creuset, capable de tout engloutir, -
la mosaïque de la mémoire
est constituée d'innombrables éléments
qui n'ont absolument rien à voir les uns avec les autres.
L'esprit oublie jusqu'à la pleine lune,
ce qui change de forme et évolue dans les profondeurs
quand leur souvenir ne lui convient pas.

Munis-toi d'une bouteille d'oxygène si tu veux
avoir des chances de t'en sortir,
autrement tu risques de ne pas réussir à tout entendre!
Il nous faut gazouiller,
gazouiller notre souffle
les uns devant les autres.
Combien de souffrances
dois-tu voir chez les autres
avant de commencer à les accepter,
à pardonner ce qu'on t'a fait
(aussi bénin cela soit-il)?

Quelque part on conserve l'étalon du pardon,
précis, comme le mètre de Paris.

L'oiseau de nuit conte sa légende.
Écoutant le message indéchiffrable qu'il module
sans s'arrêter, il me vient à l'esprit
que pardonner peut se faire en écoutant,
de telle façon que chacune des deux parties conte la même histoire
et écoute la version de l'autre.
Et si un tiers prête l'oreille?
Et si les parties concernées ne racontent leur histoire
qu'à des tiers?
Y a-t-il encore après
des gens extérieurs?


II

L'oiseau, aux mille sabirs,
sait suffisamment parler les langues
n'importe où il va.
Il parle la langue des anges.
Dans sa bouche on met des pièces d'or,
des feuilles d'olivier, même des présages.

Pourquoi à présent parles-tu tant d'oiseaux?
Est-ce à cause des colombes de la paix
ou des pies attirées par les objets brillants,
des faucons qu'on porte sur le poignet pour chasser
et qui se laissent recouvrir les yeux d'un capuchon,
des pingouins qui jouent du piano
ou des perroquets à qui grâce aux procédés actuels
on parvient à enseigner des concepts abstraits
(bientôt on pourra s'entretenir même avec les pierres)?

Tu mélanges tout ce qui vole
- pour la simple raison que cela vole.
Tout ce qui s'élève de la poussière:
se saisit du trapèze et fait un saut périlleux;
se lève des vagues et frétille un instant dans l'air;
s'élève de la poussière des archives et file droit à travers le vide;
chausse ses souliers ailés et porte le message des dieux;
fait l'amour avec les fleurs ou revient
dans la main du lanceur après avoir fait une boucle.

N'importe qui,
n'importe quoi,
n'importe où,
n'importe comment,
du moment que cela vole.


III

Par chez nous on a coutume de dire, au printemps:
va écouter les oiseaux migrateurs,
ils ont un message pour toi.
On parvient rarement plus près de l'énigme
du parler en langues -
du rêve de franchir librement les frontières.
Étrange liberté, qui a quelque chose de sacramentel -
il faut au moment opportun sortir du chemin de l'hiver
tout comme, bientôt, il faudra se déplacer
de Londres à Brisbane, en Australie, en deux heures,
pour la seule raison que c'est possible.

On vous laisse sortir et on vous exhorte:
volez partout
et parlez partout
ces milliers de langues que partout l'on comprend.

Est-ce un miracle?


IV

On ne nous a pas envoyés en vain dans l'espace.
Nous avons aventuré nos pas
dans des endroits qui ne nous regardent pas.
Nos regards portent loin, et nos âmes sont petites,
il y a là quelque chose de disproportionné.
Notre foi, aussi, est grande, disproportionnée.
Avec celle-ci on nous a envoyés faire de lointains voyages -
croyant que parmi les fois il y en a de fausses
et de justes.

Chers Messieurs Dames,
Chers Commerçants,
tout ce qui est rond n'est
pas forcément une noisette,
et tout ce qui est oblong
n'est pas forcément une banane
- mais voici la perle plus
précieuse que tout, la perle
qui n'a pas d'égale!
Vous en donnez combien?

On a pu récemment prendre part à un vol spatial
parce qu'on a l'œil
pour apprécier cet Objet Esthétique
qu'est la terre et ce qui l'entoure:
le bleu marine, le noir de perdition des espaces infinis,
l'iris de l'atmosphère, les plus extrêmes dimensions.

Nous nous tenons par les mains,
qui ne pèsent rien,
et faisons des bonds énormes
devant la caméra de télévision dépourvue de pesanteur.

Si on ne nous avait pas envoyés dans l'espace,
on aurait pu acheter à la place:
x vaccins,
x litres d'eau fraîche,
x années de vie supplémentaires pour les habitants des bidonvilles (quelle
joie pour eux).
Ainsi parlent les moralistes.
Mais, nous, nous devenons impuissants
après les voyages immenses et les souvenirs pas traités,
nous ne renonçons pas à nos idées reçues
(car nous savons ce que nous serions sans elles).
Nous oublions que tout le temps
nous avons parlé et respiré pour nous-mêmes,
vu nos propres rêves,

tordu nos poignets bronzés
de désespoir à la perspective que quelqu'un d'autre
pourrait être choisi
à notre place
être envoyé
dans l'espace.


Mitta ja määrä, 1998.
Traductions Jean-Pierre Rousseau.

I agree, it can be tedious for many people, so here is the thing - more or less - in SUOMEKSI | SVENSKA | ENGLISH | FRANÇAIS | DEUTSCH | ESPAÑOL | ITALIANO Enjoy!