never-ending gallery

This is for your own works!!!
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LisaLCFan
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by LisaLCFan »

Adam Morgan wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 12:23 am ...Beethoven's 9th is so special...

It most certainly is! :D

Geoffrey wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:52 am ...as a member of a church choir we sang 'ode to joy' - translated into norwegian. i know the words are not beethoven's, but the message is quite positive and religious...

The Ode to Joy is an anthem of hope, peace, freedom, equality, human solidarity, and above all, joy! The poem on which the lyrics are based was written by Friedrich Schiller, representing an idealistic vision of all of humanity uniting and rising above tyranny and strife and war and despair, with everyone living together in peace and harmony, their lives and the whole world filled with Joy!! Beethoven read that poem when he was just a teenager, and its message and ideals resonated deeply with him, reflecting his own values and hopes. From the moment he first read it, he wanted to set it to music, and eventually -- about 35 years or so later -- he did, and in the most extraordinary way!

Here is a link to a very interesting and enjoyable article about Beethoven and his Ninth Symphony, entitled, "Trial, Triumph, and the Art of the Possible: The Remarkable Story Behind Beethoven’s 'Ode to Joy'" -- it is a great read!

https://www.themarginalian.org/2022/05/ ... de-to-joy/

And, here are five "fun facts" about Beethoven's Ninth compiled by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation:

https://www.cbc.ca/music/5-facts-beetho ... -1.7175569

Geoffrey wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:52 am ...unusual to have lyrics in a beethoven melody...

Perhaps not as unusual as many people may think! Beethoven wrote vocal music throughout his entire life, including an opera, two Masses, various works for chorus and orchestra, arias, duets, art songs (lieder), and song cycles. If you go to this Wikipedia page and scroll down, you will see a rather substantial list of Beethoven's vocal works:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _Beethoven

I have mentioned previously that I love Beethoven's opera, "Fidelio" -- it is marvellous! Another of my favourite pieces is called "Choral Fantasy", written 16 years before the Ninth Symphony, and it shares with the Ninth Symphony both solo singers and a choir, as well as uplifting lyrics about harmony and unity for all! It's a bit like a mini-9th Symphony (with the added bonus of a piano part) -- and it is only about 20 minutes long. I highly recommend it -- I've included a link below to a very good performance on YouTube, for anyone interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjXBKR4iDS8

Cheers!
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Geoffrey
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

thank you for this information, lisa - and for the links. you are a supreme authority on beethoven. i will enjoy doing doing this 'homework' tonight and upgrading my knowledge. i believe leonard was no stranger to beethoven's music; he mentioned him several times in his literary work.
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couple of local residents seen yesterday.
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its4inthemorning
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Re: never-ending gallery

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Geoffrey wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 6:33 pm
its4inthemorning wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 3:05 pm I lack the historical knowledge to speculate, but I wonder whose visage might have been on the last Jikan that bloomed before the one Geoffrey drew.
just come home. thank you for writing!

people who lack sufficient knowledge to speculate are probably those who give the world the most original thoughts. if a person has nothing upon which to build an opinion, their thoughts and ideas can be like sunken galleons hiding treasure. you pose an interesting question with your wondering, one that i had not considered, and one that is hard to answer. i don't think one should allow a lack of historical knowledge to suffocate speculation. instead perhaps it should be embraced, for who knows what might then transpire? something certainly can come from nothing, for otherwise we would not exist.

for the record, there is often very little thought put into these sketches. the modus operandi is to make a picture as quickly as possible with noisy energetic songs filling the room. this makes it difficult to focus upon anything but the music, and thus prevents a picture from becoming too perfect - definitely something to avoid!

-g
OK Geoffrey, casting my lack of historical knowledge aside, I will speculate on whose face would be on the last "Jikan" to bloom before Leonard's. Relying on Messrs. Google and Wikipedia (not always a wise thing to do, but I think reasonable in this case), I looked for people who made their marks about 500 years before Leonard did. I concentrated on individuals who achieved some prominence in the arts--ideally poetry and/or music, and who seemed to be thoughtful, wise, and well-respected in their times. I came up with these three names: Annamacharya, Leon Battista Alberti, and Nezahualcoyotl.

Annamacharya (1408-1503) was born and lived in India. He was the earliest known musician to compose songs called samkirtanas, which were poems/songs in praise of Venkateswara, a form of Vishnu. Evidently his approach to composing was more streamlined than was Leonard's, for it is said that he composed as many as 32,000 samkirtans. Perhaps the record companies back then were less-demanding. His poems/songs were mostly either spiritual or romantic. In the spiritual ones "he praises the deity, describes his love for him, argues and quarrels with the deity, confesses the devotee's failures and apprehensions, and surrenders himself to Venkateswara." This sounds a bit Cohenesque, at least to me.

Leon Battista Alberti (1404-1472) was born in Genoa and lived his life in various Italian cities of note including Florence and Rome. Based on the Wikipedia description, Alberti was what we would today call well-rounded: "Alberti was an Italian Renaissance humanist, author, artist, architect, poet, priest, linguist, philosopher, and cryptographer." I mean, really, all the other avocations weren't enough, he had to dabble in cryptography as well? Alberti is best-known for his architectural endeavors, and many of his works survive today including: Acqua Vergine the ancient aquaduct that feeds the famous Trevi Fountain in Rome, which was restored by Alberti under a commission by Pope Nicholas V; and most of the Santa Maria Novella in Florence just east of the train station (an area with countless little restaurants, each one better than the last).

Nezahualcoyotl (1402-1472) was born and lived in the city-state Texcoco on pre-Columbian Mexico. His father, the monarch of Texcoco, was killed when Nezahualcoyotl was 15 when the city-state was conquered by the Tepanecs. By the time he was 29, Nezahualcoyotl (a) called for and created a coalition consisting of Texcoco and other important city states; (b) led part of the 100,000-man coalition army that vanquished the Tepanics; and (c) was crowned ruler of Texcoco. His poetry works were in the mostly oral Nahuatl language and the fact that they survived and were passed down in that manner until finally being transcribed by others 50-100 years later is a testament to their worth. In addition, "Nezahualcoyotl is credited with cultivating what came to be known as Texcoco's Golden Age, which brought the rule of law, scholarship, and artistry to the city and set high standards that influenced surrounding cultures."

Any of these three individuals, I think, has earned the right to have appeared on the "Jikan" that bloomed before Leonard's. Geoffrey, please feel free to draw a new "Jikan" depicting your choice.

Afterward: Despite the profound accomplishments of these three individuals and the high esteem in which they were held where and when they lived their lives, until today I had never heard of any of them. (Perhaps others more learned than I are familiar with them, but I doubt it would be many.) This leads to the sad conclusion that even the most accomplished persons of our lives and times will eventually be remembered by almost nobody. And if that is the fate of the flowers, it can be said with some certainty that all of us weeds will rather quickly disappear without a trace.

4
2010 DECEMBER 10 - CAESARS COLOSSEUM, LAS VEGAS / 2012 SEPTEMBER 28 - L'OLYMPIA, PARIS
2012 OCTOBER 3 - PALAU SANT JORDI, BARCELONA / 2012 DECEMBER 13 - K-ROCK CENTRE, KINGSTON
2013 APRIL 6 - RADIO CITY MUSIC HALL, NEW YORK CITY / 2013 JULY 9 - PIAZZA NAPOLEONE, LUCCA
2017 NOVEMBER 4-8 - MONTREAL "TOWER OF SONG" CELEBRATION - RIP, YOU GOT ME SINGING!
its4inthemorning
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by its4inthemorning »

LisaLCFan wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 7:54 pm
Adam Morgan wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 12:23 am ...Beethoven's 9th is so special...

It most certainly is! :D


I've loved the Ninth ever since my droog days.

4
2010 DECEMBER 10 - CAESARS COLOSSEUM, LAS VEGAS / 2012 SEPTEMBER 28 - L'OLYMPIA, PARIS
2012 OCTOBER 3 - PALAU SANT JORDI, BARCELONA / 2012 DECEMBER 13 - K-ROCK CENTRE, KINGSTON
2013 APRIL 6 - RADIO CITY MUSIC HALL, NEW YORK CITY / 2013 JULY 9 - PIAZZA NAPOLEONE, LUCCA
2017 NOVEMBER 4-8 - MONTREAL "TOWER OF SONG" CELEBRATION - RIP, YOU GOT ME SINGING!
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LisaLCFan
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by LisaLCFan »

its4inthemorning wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 1:40 am ...I've loved the Ninth ever since my droog days...
I seriously doubt that you were ever a violent psychopath getting your jollies from assaulting and terrorising innocent people (rather odd sense of humour to suggest that you were...), but at least you have good taste in music in this particular instance.
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Geoffrey
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

its4inthemorning wrote:
>This leads to the sad conclusion that even the most accomplished persons of our lives and times will eventually be remembered by almost nobody. And if that is the fate of the flowers, it can be said with some certainty that all of us weeds will rather quickly disappear without a trace.

it can also be said with some certainty that in the long run it doesn't really matter. peoples' accomplishments do enrich our existence, but it's not permanent. eventually there will only be darkness, and carl sagan's 'pale blue dot' will have perished long before that. there will be 'no stars' - as rebekah del rio sings. some achievements may be remembered for many years, but in the end it's all gone. i don't know what the meaning of life is, and neither does anyone else.

there is no reason to let these facts destroy our enjoyment while we are here. leonard wrote "i lift my glass to the awful truth which you can't reveal to the ears of youth" - the truth is a brutal reality. knowledge and intelligence are the enemies of bliss. we can still be kind to one another, though - eat delicious food, write books, create beautiful music, paint masterpieces, build temples, investigate space, discover medicines, etc., etc., etc.

leonard summed it all up when he said: "when things get really bad, just raise your glass, stamp your feet and do a little jig. that's about all you can do!" good advice! :)
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another in the 'never-ending cohen sketches' series. this time while listening to beethoven's ninth.
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https://vimeo.com/277200315
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LisaLCFan
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by LisaLCFan »

Geoffrey wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 10:28 pm ...another in the 'never-ending cohen sketches' series. this time while listening to beethoven's ninth..
:D I've been listening to it non-stop. The more I hear it, the more I want to hear it -- it is absolutely magical!
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

LisaLCFan wrote:
>I've been listening to [beethoven's ninth] non-stop. The more I hear it, the more I want to hear it -- it is absolutely magical!

i know the feeling. have it with paganini's 'violin concerto #1', mozart's 'magic flute', verdi's 'rigoletto' and 'la traviata', etc.
with modern music it would need to be a 'concept' album, such as 'dark side of the moon' or 'astral weeks'.

some music certainly is magical. at the right moment it can both transport the listener into layers of emotion and inspire creativity. how indescribably awful it must have been for beethoven when he became deaf! :(
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Re: never-ending gallery

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Geoffrey wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:52 am ...as a member of a church choir we sang 'ode to joy' - translated into norwegian. i know the words are not beethoven's, but the message is quite positive and religious...
I have been wondering about this, because your assessment that "the message is quite ...religious" struck me as somewhat incongruent with the Schiller/Beethoven lyrics from the Ninth Symphony's "Ode to Joy". Yes, there are Christian references in it -- as well as a lot of Paganism! -- but the main theme is very much of the Enlightenment/Humanistic tradition, for as I noted, both Schiller and Beethoven were idealistic and dreamed of a day when all of humanity would rise above strife and unite in peace, freedom, joy, etc, and the "Ode to Joy" embodied those ideals. (If you read the article I attached, there was considerable discussion about that!)

It is possible that what you and your church choir sang was not the Beethoven/Schiller "Ode to Joy", but a popular hymn sung to Beethoven's melody, called, "The Hymn of Joy", also known as "Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee", with very religious lyrics written by an American Christian clergyman named Henry van Dyke. (I actually think that it would be really quite odd for a church choir to sing the Beethoven/Schiller version.) I remember hearing and singing that hymn when I attended church as a young child -- I always greatly enjoyed the uplifting melody!

For comparison, here are links to the lyrics of both.

Schiller/Beethoven "Ode to Joy" https://www.saxonica.com/~mike/OdeToJoy.html

van Dyke hymn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hymn_of_Joy

(edited to provide better, more accurate English translation of Schiller/Beethoven poem/lyrics)
Last edited by LisaLCFan on Fri May 17, 2024 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Geoffrey
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

LisaLCFan wrote:
>I have been wondering about this, because your assessment that "the message is quite ...religious" struck me as somewhat incongruent with the Schiller/Beethoven lyrics from the Ninth Symphony's "Ode to Joy". . . .

your knowledge is impressive. it was a while ago, and i no longer have the SATB sheet music with lyrics we were given. we sang many religious songs, mostly based upon the psalms or other biblical references, the biggest by far being handel's 'messiah' (in english). i am pretty sure we sang 'ode to joy', and not 'hymn of joy' - but i don't remember specifically.
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Re: never-ending gallery

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Geoffrey wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 2:22 am ... i am pretty sure we sang 'ode to joy' ...
Awesome! The church choirs I heard as a kid would have been far too conservative and pious to sing about being drunk with fire, a goddess with magic power, worms knowing pleasure, kisses for all (from Mother Nature and everyone else), etc.! Such lyrics would almost certainly have caused an outrage -- or at the very least, fainting spells and a few heart attacks! Mind you, it would have made the church services more fun. :twisted:
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

LisaLCFan wrote:
>Awesome! The church choirs I heard as a kid would have been far too conservative and pious to sing about being drunk with fire, a goddess with magic power, worms knowing pleasure, kisses for all (from Mother Nature and everyone else), etc.! Such lyrics would almost certainly have caused an outrage -- or at the very least, fainting spells and a few heart attacks! Mind you, it would have made the church services more fun. :twisted:

this is so interesting. i looked at the online sheet music lyrics because i wondered if there could be more than one version, but the free small thumbnails are hard to read. the choir ('motetkor') of which i was a member is no longer in existence, but i sometimes meet the conductor and can talk to him about it.

found this on youtube.
https://youtu.be/mtvxwsiRge4?si=Gvst5GzKRL-8qfHv
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Re: never-ending gallery

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Geoffrey wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 6:51 pm ...this is so interesting. i looked at the online sheet music lyrics because i wondered if there could be more than one version...

found this on youtube.
https://youtu.be/mtvxwsiRge4?si=Gvst5GzKRL-8qfHv
Yes, there is more than one version: that's what I've been telling you!!!

There is Beethoven's original version from his Ninth Symphony, based on a poem by Friedrich Schiller. I discussed all of this above in considerable detail (I thought), and I provided a link to a really lovely article that discusses Beethoven's version at even greater length!

Then, as I noted above, there is a totally different version that was written much later, as a church hymn, which steals Beethoven's melody, but uses totally different lyrics written by an American named Henry van Dyke.

I provided links to the lyrics of both versions, so that you could see how different they were!

The Youtube version you found is the hymn with the lyrics by van Dyke, not Beethoven's version, and it is the one I heard as a kid in church, and which is mostly likely the one sung in most churches because it's actually a very popular hymn, which I also mentioned above!
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

LisaLCFan wrote:
>Yes, there is more than one version: that's what I've been telling you!!!
-----------------------------------
indeed you have. i always read your messages and click on the links you provide. in this instance i searched only for SATB (4-voice) sheet music images. we know that different translations of the same text can vary immensely, even in the same language - as with the bible. i sang 'ode to joy' in norwegian, almost certainly a mutilated and censored version of schiller's original german. it happens all the time. versions of 'the rubaiyat of omar khayyam' repeatedly re-written and translated by the same person (fitzgerald) also vary considerably.

it was dishonest and morally wrong of the church to adjust the 'ode to joy' lyrics to suit their needs. perhaps christians will also soon rewrite 'imagine there's no heaven . . . no hell below us' into more acceptable lyrics. i wish i had kept the norwegian version of 'ode to joy' that we used, but it was probably sourced from henry van dyke's english version.

i don't know what the laws are concerning people changing lyrics when making cover versions of songs, but 'ode to joy', was written a long time ago, and i don't believe leonard cohen needed to get permission from henry VIII's(?) estate before releasing his version of 'greensleeves'.
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Re: never-ending gallery

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Geoffrey wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 11:54 pm...we know that different translations of the same text can vary immensely, even in the same language...

...it was dishonest and morally wrong of the church to adjust the 'ode to joy' lyrics to suit their needs. perhaps christians will also soon rewrite 'imagine there's no heaven . . . no hell below us' into more acceptable lyrics. i wish i had kept the norwegian version of 'ode to joy' that we used, but it was probably sourced from henry van dyke's english version.

i don't know what the laws are concerning people changing lyrics when making cover versions of songs, but 'ode to joy', was written a long time ago, and i don't believe leonard cohen needed to get permission from henry VIII's(?) estate before releasing his version of 'greensleeves'.
Yes, of course, translations can vary, but the edited link I provided for Beethoven's "Ode to Joy" is almost a literal translation from the German, and it is not much different from other translations I've seen that also aim to be as close to the German original as possible. When modern orchestras perform Beethoven's Ninth, and if they choose to use or provide a translation of the lyrics for the language of their audience, one would hope that there is no need for them to alter the words to fit any particular religious dogma, since they are not presenting it as a religious piece of music, but rather as a magnificent masterpiece embodying the brilliance of the human spirit!

So-called translations that actually alter the meanings of texts in order to present a different message, based on the agendas of the person or group using the mutilated/censored editions, are another matter. It may well be the case that there are countless "versions" of hymns/songs using Beethoven's melody and passing themselves off as "Ode to Joy" or something similar, but one can't really do much about that. It is up to the listener to do their research and find out what's what!

I am not sure how accurate it is to say that "the church" "adjusted" the original "Ode to Joy" lyrics to suit their needs, rather, one person, van Dyke, simply borrowed Beethoven's melody and wrote his own lyrics for it, and thus, it was not a "cover version", but simply a new song using an existing melody. From what I've read, there is no reason to believe that van Dyke ever claimed anything other than that they were his own lyrics, to be sung to Beethoven's melody -- he even gave it a different title. In this instance, van Dyke's actions were completely legal.

By the time van Dyke wrote his famous hymn, Beethoven's music was in the public domain, and thus it had no copyright and was free for anybody to use, which van Dyke did. Likewise for Greensleeves, which had long been in the public domain by the time Leonard used it! However, "the church", and anyone else, will have to wait until 2050 (in most countries) to mutilate and censor John Lennon's songs (although people may well have done so already, but just not legally).

Most countries impose a specific and legal time frame for published works to remain under copyright, after which the work enters the public domain and is no longer under copyright protection (so, anybody can use it for any purpose). 50 years after the death of the author/artist is the minimum time (accepted by most countries in the world), and a majority of countries make it 70 years after the death of the author/artist (some even longer) -- it varies, and lists of copyright periods for each country can be found online.
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