Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Old Id

Leonard Cohen's previous album (January 2012)
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valentin
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Ol

Postby valentin » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:52 pm

Leonard Cohen is not a poet? my god, do you say?


viewtopic.php?f=55&t=31252&sid=5393c3b8 ... 1e#p295002

They end the discussion. Thank you very dreamermusic !
Verde que te quiero verde...
Chema
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Ol

Postby Chema » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:05 pm

Valentín, you are a farmhand. Is that your answer? All that matters is your opinion!!!
literman
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Ol

Postby literman » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:22 pm

Alberto Manzano, has transleted all the books of poetry, has writen quite a bunch of books about Cohen, has organized two homenage albums; one with the sadly departed cantaor Enrique Morente called OMEGA, and another with spanish musicians and a few international ones; Jackson Browne, the great John Cale, Adan Cohen and Perla Batalla, called ACORDES CON L.C, and of course has translated the songs on the booklets, so it's quite amusing that now Sabina its doing Manzano's job.
I neather like Sabina, but of course he is on his right to adapt into spanish Cohen songs, and can be and interesting interpretation but if the idea was looking for a famous spanish singer, Luis Eduardo Aute, a life time cohen follower, would have been a better choice.
The tanslation of Manzano will be missed :(
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Ol

Postby Velazquez » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:17 pm

He will not steal the work of Alberto Manzano, surely he’s preparing another book with literal translations. And yes, I think Aute is closer to Cohen.

I do not know what Sabina did with Old Ideas, but I suppose that the same as with Pie de Guerra, a song inspired by There is a War. One remake with different ending, opening up the hope of reconciling the poles of the tension needed to keep moving engine. Definitely it’s not a translation, it’s a own Sabina work, he does not want to be a simple translator, wants to create and dares to change the meaning of the poem, then the orthodox fans shout that it's a heresy.

Joaquín Sabina is a formidable songwriter, a great poet, very popular for Hispanic people, obviously ignored by the English language domain. Her poetic universe is not that of Cohen, Sabina is a great realist without mystery. So different but he declares one enthusiastic Cohen fan and he spread his work, it's fine, I'm sure, he does it sincerely.

What think Cohen about free adaptations of his songs? Serge Lama did in 1971 Vivre Tout Seul (Bird On The Wire), in my opinion is a wrong adaptation, but Cohen awarded him singing it in the 1975 tour, especially in French-speaking lands, (Je Veux Vivre Tout Seul). We are more dogmatic than the Pope. Then Mari Trini gave the double jump, a double version: Quiero vivir sola.

Cohen admires Lorca, but he did not translate Pequeño vals vienés or La Casada Infiel, Cohen created new works of their own universe.

Another thing is the blunders of translators, for example: Bird in the Cage (CBS, back cover, first edition) and Beautiful Defeated (Javier Sainz and Susan Hendry 1975),

Perhaps the most horrific manipulation is Desatero of Lucie Bílá.

Sometimes I wonder, why Picasso did this with Las Meninas?
literman
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Ol

Postby literman » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:32 am

Great post Velazquez.
But i felt in love with Cohen poetry by the spanish translation of I'm your man lyrics on the sheet inside the lp, and so i feel
newcomers should be able to get a fair translation, and my question is if Sabina can provide that.
Of course outside the booklet of Old Ideas any personal interpretation will be welcome.
Chema
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Ol

Postby Chema » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:11 pm

My first opinion, the translations of Sabina are not a crime against Humanity. In all translations appears the spirit of the original song
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Ol

Postby BEATRIZ SALLES » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:34 am

literman wrote:Great post Velazquez.
But i felt in love with Cohen poetry by the spanish translation of I'm your man lyrics on the sheet inside the lp, and so i feel
newcomers should be able to get a fair translation, and my question is if Sabina can provide that.
Of course outside the booklet of Old Ideas any personal interpretation will be welcome.

that's exactly what I think about this. Thank you Literman.
2008 Paris. 2009 Barcelona. 2010 Marseille. 2012 Ghent. Verona. Barcelona. Lisbon. 2013 Antwerpen, Berlin, Pula.
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Ol

Postby hazey » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:28 am

Great last posts.

I am not against translations or interpretations. However, I feel they should not be part of the Old Ideas booklet.
1988 : Madrid / 2008 : London O2 Jul 17 / 2009: Madrid, Bilbao / 2010: Lisboa, Tours / 2012: Paris 2x, Madrid, Lisboa / 2013: Paris, Roma, Brighton
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina

Postby fannumberone » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:26 pm

"But i felt in love with Cohen poetry by the spanish translation of I'm your man lyrics on the sheet inside the lp, and so i feel
newcomers should be able to get a fair translation, and my question is if Sabina can provide that." (Literman)

Do you suggest that the newcomers are not able to do a "translation" for themselves? ....
Your second question...I don´t know the answer (now). I´ve just received an sms to go to my post office to get my CD.
I must see these translations / adaptations before answer this (rhetoric, I suppose) question.


Chema: A Sabina no se le juzga por "Crímenes contra la Humanidad", sino por "Herejía Grave por Traducción Inadecuada o Inexacta"...y todavía no hemos visto esas traducciones (al menos yo), así que...No te precipites. :lol: Que aún puede ser juzgado y condenado. Salu2.
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Ol

Postby Chema » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:20 pm

fannumberone, las traducciones de Sabina son eso: traducciones. No las defiendo al 100%, lo único que digo que son correctas y se toma alguna libertad como cualquier traductor. Esto es legítimo. Espero tu comentario cuando las hayas visto. Saludos
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Ol

Postby literman » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:46 am

Fannunberone;
The fact is that when I'm your man come out I was 13 years old and my english was not good enough for a translation of my own,
so it helped a lot the translation into spanish.
Sadly In Spain not "everyone" does speak english.
I agree I havent read the translations of Sabina yet, only the posted ones, but really if someone is doing his job as good
as Manzano,someone who makes his living this way and really akin to Cohen, turning to someone so idiosincratic as Sabina
dosent sound to me like a good old idea :)
Anyway the lirycs of Old Ideas dosent look hard to translate, nothing to do with I'm your man, The Future or even Ten New Songs,
so even Sabina would do a good job, i say even because if anyone thinks he is a poet, maybe after reading "ciento volando"
his "book of poetry" will change his mind.
You know his best known song goes; "y nos dieros las 10 y las 11, las 12 la 1, las 2 y las 3 y desnudos al amanecer
nos descubrió la luna" :roll:
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fannumberone
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Ol

Postby fannumberone » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:20 am

literman wrote: so even Sabina would do a good job, i say even because if anyone thinks he is a poet, maybe after reading "ciento volando"
his "book of poetry" will change his mind. (:roll:)
You know his best known song goes; "y nos dieros las 10 y las 11, las 12 la 1, las 2 y las 3 y desnudos al amanecer
nos descubrió la luna" :roll:
Beautiful song ...but with the WHOLE lyrics !:
http://www.musica.com/letras.asp?letra=124883
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Ol

Postby fannumberone » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:43 am

Chema wrote: las traducciones de Sabina son eso: traducciones. No las defiendo al 100%, lo único que digo que son correctas y se toma alguna libertad como cualquier traductor. Esto es legítimo. Espero tu comentario cuando las hayas visto. Saludos
Yo las he visto más que correctas. Es difícil, como has señalado en algún otro post, que una traducción no lleve necesariamente una adaptación, más incluso si se trata de Poesía! donde las frases deben rimar respetando su significado, la intención de la estrofa, la métrica del poema...Se toma alguna licencia, pero sin pasarse...No son versiones "libérrimas" como "Pie de guerra", por ejemplo. Se respeta la intención original. Es sólo mi opinión, claro, porque como decimos por aquí "para gustos, los colores".
Saludos, Chema. Ah, y gracias por el link de la Fnac ;-)
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina, adapts (destroys) 'Ol

Postby Meritxell » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:19 pm

Mr. Google translator also shows the spirit of Leonard Cohen´s words. Venga ya!, Alberto Manzano should have translated Old Ideas songs, Sony Spain has choosen Joaquín Sabina to promote Old Ideas, because Joaquín Sabina sells, Alberto Manzano don´t. I didn´t read the other songs, with Show me the place I have enough. I have Dreamermusic translations inside my CD instead of this "this crime against humanity". On the other hand, it´s a frivolity to talk about crimes, judgements and convictions, please leave aside for a moment Leonard Cohen and see the true crimes around.
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Re: Spanish songwriter Joaquin Sabina

Postby fannumberone » Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:45 pm

"I am not against translations or interpretations. However, I feel they should not be part of the Old Ideas booklet". (Hazey).

Hazey: The Sabina´s translations are not in the same booklet with the original lyrics...(the original Cohen´s work).

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