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Hi guys, it took some time to convince myself, but I finally decided to post something of my own...


I see all the people
hear all of their stories
how much they are loving
each other and why
and then when it's over
cry into my shoulder
how much they are hating
each other and why

I watch all their faces
tired of smiling
so used to lying
that they don't remember the truth
I hear them talking
while they are walking
they don't give a dime
Just pass by the time

See them work nine to five
a sixth of their life
sleep five to nine
just walk the line
Got a relationship going
get up in the morning
note's on a nail
"Ships have to sail"

another ride on the subway
close quarter battles all day
stand alone 'gainst the rest
love your neighbor put to the test
drive and die on the left lane
always stay on the first plane
don't give a damn
about another one's 'Nam

Don't slip no beggar a cent
his fault he don't pay no rent
don't stop for a coin on the ground
anything less than a pound
to survive this world today
you gotta know your way
no dead end you can't get out
gratitude, you can do without

Charity is our pet
curiousity just killed the cat
indifference took care of the rest
silence out west
whales are outdated
our hearts all sedated
cry of an unborn child
call of the wild

Once upon a time somewhere uptown
death tolls rounded up or down
zap by mistake, 9 pm newsflash
don't panic, quick, back to M.A.S.H.
Watch all day MTV
can't hear, got to see
music like oil going down
no cracks in the crown

Don't follow them my friend
identity is not a heaven sent
the world can make your day
don't run away
get out of the basement
rules of engagement
stop taking the piss
you're special, everyone is


I don't feel totally comfortable/satisfied with it, but I just wanted your opinion on it... constructive criticism is always appreciated.

Cheers Arno

Hi Arno ~

I have to return to work now, so you will read your [....] later. As long as you don't come here with the misguided notion that it's a 'poem,' you will be fine

~ Lizzy

sorry liz,
I dont really get what you meant with your reply ...

just call it junk

cheers Arno

Hi Arno ~

Oh dear, I should have directly referred you to the thread that puts my comment in context, for better ~ and appropriate ~ understanding ! Sorry not to have done that. I have not, in fact, even read your poem, yet. My lunch hour was ending [and I'm just finishing up a break]. I was going to read your poem from home tonite.

The 4 periods inside the brackets signify the word "poem" ~ however, I was not speaking it out, as I was making direct reference to Moonlight's contention [on the other thread] that there are no poems here. Again, as you had expressed your 'finally' having decided to post something of yours here, I was playing off the other dialogue [it must rise to a higher level to be considered 'discussion'] on the other thread. The 'misguided notion' refers with light sarcasm to you, amongst every other contributor here, who has failed to rise to the 'standards' cemented in place by Moonlight. I was playing, with references to the other thread.

Your poem will definitely be duly and rightfully read when I get home tonite....and I look forward to it. For now, I just want to assure you that nothing, and I do mean nothing, was intended negatively toward you or your poem.

Love,
Lizzytysh

no offence taken Lizzy

I have to admit that since I'm a little uncertain towards my qualities as a writer I was a little disturbed that even you (whom I got to know as very forgiving towards weaker poets) would tear it to pieces. Then I read the last few posts of the Moonlight-poem discussion and I understood the context...

so no problem and read my "junk" whenever you got the time.

I sometimes get confused with the time-difference... it's 9pm here

cheers Arno

I sensed a rap feel to this poem. Was that how it was intended? I would certainly not call it junk.

actually... no

but I see how one can get that impression.
It actually is going to be a song of which I neither got the melody nor a bridge etc etc

I had the first idea for that poem/song/rap/junk/ while listening to Daysleeper by REM. So the rythm is based on the pace/rythm of that song which might give it this rap-feel although that isnt really my style.


thanks for the not-junk part

Arno

I simple clear style, giving a message....

Hi Arno ~

I'm home now and at last read your poem . I appreciate the overriding bleakness and anomie in it. When all is seeming truly lost, comes a voice of hope and encouragement, bringing with it a truth equal to all that has preceded it. I now understand others' comments regarding setting it to music.

On the critique end of it: I understand your repetition of "each other and why," I'm just not sure that something else might not work better. The jury's still out on this aspect, however, so it comes with no specific suggestions. I just sense that you might be able to deepen it even more with a turn of phrase in your last line of that verse.

In your second verse, it feels [as I read it] that you could do without the word "that" in your fourth line, and lose nothing. I think it would also make it cleaner and more dynamic.

See them work nine to five
a sixth of their life
sleep five to nine
just walk the line

Geez, can I relate to this one !

In your subway verse, I'd hyphenate "close-quarter" like that.

This is very effective:

drive and die on the left lane
always stay on the first plane
don't give a damn
about another one's 'Nam

I'd say "Don't slip the beggar a cent" [not just to avoid the double-negative ~ you can ask Pete about that ], because it'll 'point' to a specific beggar in the reader's mind's eye, and because it'll flow better. It also allows you to put more emphasis on "his fault". Of course,
with "don't pay no rent," that phrasing is more 'streetish' ~ which you kinda want, anyway, but you still ~ if looked at 'properly' ~ have a double-negative going on, that "don't pay the rent" would resolve. I don't feel the concern with this second line, like I do with the first, however. I really feel it would do better with "Don't slip the beggar a cent."

I get a little lost with the choppiness in the 'flow' of:

"to survive this world today
you gotta know your way
no dead end you can't get out
gratitude, you can do without"

I love this:

Charity is our pet
curiousity just killed the cat
indifference took care of the rest
silence out west
whales are outdated
our hearts all sedated
cry of an unborn child
call of the wild

I think the "Once upon a time" verse could be worked on for greater clarity.

I love what your final verse does to the poem as a whole, the sense of empowerment and reversal it brings.

There ya' go. My feedback ~ and my 'critique' ~ constructive criticism given only because you suggested it.

~ Lizzytysh

By the way, I felt much better once I saw your name on the other thread. Then, I read your response to my explanation, and felt a whole lot better !

Hi Liz

first of all thanks for your really profound and helpful comment

This is exactly the criticism I wanted, giving me ideas and hints how to improve my writing. I started writing poems about half a year ago and I know that I have much to learn, so every hint is greatly appreciated.

I am amazed that I approve with every point you mentioned. I dont particulary like the whole "each other and why" verse and I will get down to change this one tonight.

"that": no discussion, deleted

"close-quarter" I'll think about it, not sure what this changes...

I don't know if anyone out there gets what I mean with "another one's 'Nam...

"don't slip no..." sometimes you can't see the forests behind all the trees, of course "the" is better, the second line, I kind of like the (as you put it) streetish feel, so I'll think about it.

"to survive this world..." pure sloppiness, I added it short before I posted it, I will rework this one.

"charity is our pet..." thanks, I kinda like it too

"once upon a time" will be either redone or deleted

last verse: again thanks


Thanks for the help, and most of all for the critical comments, they help me alot. Sometimes you're just too close to something and can't judge objectively anymore. It's just criticism like: "this is hopeless/terrible/totallyandutterlydisgusting etc" that I dont really like, but I dont think that anyone on the forum does this which I appreciate.


So thanks again and have a nice day
Arno

Hi Arno ~

You're very welcome, and I'm glad you appreciated it ~ and even agree ~[they really need a "Whew" emoticon ~ I've had need of one any number of times here] !

The hyphen in close-quarter wasn't really meant to add anything, but rather just to make it 'proper.' It's two words, working 'together,' to describe one [battles]. It condenses it and makes it clear which word they are working together to describe and avoids any confusion.......i.e. to make it clear that it's not "close, quarter battles" [whatever a quarter battle would be, i.e. ~ being ridiculous to make the point ~ as opposed to 1/2 battle, or a 3/4 battle, or a even a battle over a quarter [the coin], or a battle over a quarter [the space]; but rather battles that are a result of the quarters being close. Do you see what I mean?

I know exactly what you mean ~ and totally agree ~ regarding the nature of criticism [constructive and otherwise]. It's exactly what I would want if I posted poetry here, and invited constructive criticism .

I look forward to your reworking .

~ Elizabeth

Hi Arno!


This is an excellent poem and Lizzy's suggestions were presented and received the way they should be with kindness and consideration. I hope you send us more of your poems.

Hi Arno ~

I meant to include that, being from that generation myself, I hope people know what you meant by "another one's 'Nam" .

~ Lizzytysh

P.S. Coco ~ thank you.

First of all, thanks Coco

Liz, I misunderstood the hyphen part... I didn't really know what "hyphenised" meant and thought that this means putting these "" around the word. This didn't make much sense to me with close-quarter battles...
the "hyphen" (--- hope i finally got it right) I simply forgot while typing...

sorry for the work you took to explain to me the importance of the "hyphen"

Cheers Arno

Ah, good ~ thanks for your own clarification, Arno .

~ Lizzy