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I wanted to explore- play- practice some different poetry forms. I'm a novice, so I don't know many, I'd love suggestions and or example of other forms.

Tanka form.
It’s a form of Japanese poetry older than a haiku. The syllable pattern is like this 5-7-5/7-7 .


fond memory

Frank makes me pasta
I sit on my stool and watch
He explains each step

the restaurant is quiet
we are the only two left





Edited to reduce unneeded words and to change the last two lines of poem.

I like what you did with it, Cate.


~ Lizzy

57577
under the black moon
we are standing on our own
trembling with our love
nothing else really matters
cause we are together now

Cate,

When adapting a foreign form of verse, one should first ask, in my view: Can I master it? And what do I stand to gain by using it?

The sonnet form, for example, was successfully adapted from Italian to English (and other languages), with some adjustments, but while keeping the form and spirit of the original sonnet. A legitimate way of writing verse in English was thus born; it gave English poetry a tool it didn’t have before, and which could be mastered by many poets.

As a student and translator of Japanese poetry for many years perhaps I tend to be a little purist, but still I feel the need to ask the same questions: can you master this form, and what do you gain by adapting it? Tanka is almost the oldest, and the most respected form of Japanese verse (it is also called “waka”, which means, simply, “Japanese poem”; "tanka" means "short poem"). For many centuries it was a lyrical poem, speaking of nature, of love and of a few other human emotions. After a long period of stagnation, some modern poets revived it and started using it to describe a wider range of subjects that had to do with their lives, although the old, traditional way also survived.

In your poem you describe a scene from life, and as often done in tanka, you divide it into two smaller scenes, relating to each other. But I must say I’m not happy with the ending, which holds a kind of surprising twist. I would not expect this in a tanka poem. There could be a degree of contrast between the two parts, but there should be a better flow from beginning to end.

Also, what do you gain by using the form of 5-7-5-7-7 syllables? Can readers of English poetry feel it, relate to it, gain something from it? Would they be aware of it without being told? (I’m asking, I don’t really know for sure). If not, perhaps writing a short poem without the constraints of the syllable count might be a better idea. What do you think?

This, of course, is not meant to discourage you from experimenting. We wouldn’t know if it works until we’ve tried, but sometimes we also have to reconsider.

When adapting a foreign form of verse, one should first ask, in my view: Can I master it? And what do I stand to gain by using it?

As a student and translator of Japanese poetry for many years perhaps I tend to be a little purist, but still I feel the need to ask the same questions: can you master this form, and what do you gain by adapting it?

I’m not sure you actually wanted me to answer these questions, but since it was asked twice.

First question – can I master it?

Truthful answer – unlikely but there is the possibility

The question I would ask my self is – If I choose to express myself in this form of poetry am I willing to invest energy into building skill.

Second Question – What do you gain from adopting it?

With haiku I appreciate how precise it is. It’s like looking at a moment – a specific moment – and capturing from it, it’s essence. Just that piece – no extra words – no embellishments – just that piece. By stripping it down to the essence the whole of the moment seems greater. For me a haiku also brings me a sense of focus. Even if I never master this or haiku’s I feel it has purpose.

Also, what do you gain by using the form of 5-7-5-7-7 syllables? Can readers of English poetry feel it, relate to it, gain something from it? Would they be aware of it without being told? (I’m asking, I don’t really know for sure). If not, perhaps writing a short poem without the constraints of the syllable count might be a better idea. What do you think?

This is weird but I’m going to quote myself from the haiku corner from about a month ago at that point I had been practicing haiku’s for about one month.

I love how a few words can create such a vivid image in the mind. I’m afraid this is leading me to distraction though. I’ve found myself at work, repeating in my head, words that someone has said and counting the syllables.

When I counted, what I found was phrases I enjoyed were often 5, 7 or 9 syllables in length (I know 9 not from haiku but it also seems to stand out) . I like how you used the term “feel it”. There is something about the pattern that you feel intrinsically. That’s the best answer, if it’s an answer, that I can give at this point. A year from now I may have better insight.

This, of course, is not meant to discourage you from experimenting. We wouldn’t know if it works until we’ve tried, but sometimes we also have to reconsider.

This is something I’m going to experiment with. One attempt does not a try make. My toes are barely wet I need to go in to my ankles at least. Worst case scenario it’s not a fit for me but I learn some appreciation of an art form outside my normal realm.

In regards to my attempt – you’re right it needs work. The cheek at the end is a bit of a cop out. I’m going to try to rework the last lines, but I need to put some thought into it.

I do thank you for the information you have provided me, your questions which I will continue to think about and your constructive criticism, an important tool in learning.

my

my lake is shimmering
as the comarant swoops down
oer the mating swans
there nesting on an island
near the childrens old graveyard

Cate wrote:I love how a few words can create such a vivid image in the mind. I’m afraid this is leading me to distraction though. I’ve found myself at work, repeating in my head, words that someone has said and counting the syllables.

I might come to regretting having read that. I got a little interested one time in the brain's ability to handle 7 numbers, why we can remember phone numbers easily. I found that this ability could be used to do some very clever math and learned some tricks where I could use it to be able to outcalculate calculators. Other than to entertain some children or impress people at parties I was never really able to see the practicle application of it but now I am considering that I might have been narrow minded in thinking that it's practical application would be in just math.

You got me back for mentioning Santa Clause.

Hi Jack,

As you may know, the ability to handle a certain amount of units (consciously) is known
as "Miller's Law," or sometimes as the seven plus or minus two rule.

Steven wrote:As you may know, the ability to handle a certain amount of units (consciously) is known as "Miller's Law," or sometimes as the seven plus or minus two rule.

No I didn't know that but now I do - thanks
the plus two might explain what Cate was feeling for both nine and seven

I have been trying to find info on Miller's Law and what I keep getting pointed to is the following

To understand what another person is saying, you must assume that it is true and try to imagine what it could be true of. --Miller's Law

They speak of this as the golden rule of communication and it seems pretty golden and so I don't mind that I was led there but I don't think it was what you were referring to Steven.

Oh I found it using "seven plus or minus two rule" in my search. What it also mentioned was that it wasn't understood why there is this rule and that there have been cases when a person wasn't limited by it. The example given is the autistic savant portrayed by Dustin Hoffman in the film Rain Man. I wonder if any interesting results could be found by trying to see what is the memory comfort levels of other autistic people.

Hi Jack,

This link should get you to the original paper by George A. Miller:
http://www.musanim.com/miller1956/ .

Memory involves accessing things that aren't currently in conscious awareness, so
I don't know how savant-like memory would or wouldn't relate to this. But, for
people, generally, the capacity to apprehend in current time awareness, is vastly superior
on an unconscious level. Consider the number of stimuli responded to by someone
in a football game, on a highway, etc. (Got to get off this internet for now. Take care.)

jimbo wrote:my lake is shimmering
as the comarant swoops down
oer the mating swans
there nesting on an island
near the childrens old graveyard

I like this James, I like this quite a bit.

Your first line is very powerful "my lake is shimmering", I love the fact that it's your lake. I also like the contrast of the mating swans and the children graveyard, very strong images.

lazariuk wrote:I might come to regretting having read that. I got a little interested one time in the brain's ability to handle 7 numbers, why we can remember phone numbers easily. I found that this ability could be used to do some very clever math and learned some tricks where I could use it to be able to outcalculate calculators. Other than to entertain some children or impress people at parties I was never really able to see the practicle application of it but now I am considering that I might have been narrow minded in thinking that it's practical application would be in just math.

Hi Jack

This is an interesting idea, I've never thought about this way before. I've heard of a connection between math and playing music. I guess math and poetry makes sense, left and right brain working together.
I'm curious about your clever math tricks? Can you share or is it like a magicians secret?

Cate

Cate wrote:[
I'm curious about your clever math tricks? Can you share or is it like a magicians secret?
Cate

well one thing I do is that i get four people to give me a number from 1 to 9

and so they do
lets say 7 2 4 9
and then I say that i will pick 3 prime numbers and I do. I pick 7 and 11 and 13
and then I say that I will race against the calculator to multiply their four numbers by my three numbers as in 7249* 7 * 11 * 13
and as they are reaching for the calculators I write out 7256249
The number is right there in my head as a 7 digit number and it is easy to get to because it is two smaller numbers put together
7249 and 7249 just squished together a bit to make them 7 digits so if you add the 7 and 9 you get 16 which makes you carry the 1 to make the 56 and hense 7256249
the trick is simple because 7* 11 * 13 is the mirror image number 1001
every number that you multiply by 7* 11 * 13 will work like that
3 digit numbers will just repeat and so 567 7* 11 * 13 will = 567567

I can use this in a way that includes a lot more prime numbers and get to answers that are out of the range for common calculators to be able to handle and they depended on the brains ability to work with groups of 7. What interested me was that there were certain things about numbers that seemed to accommodate how the brain worked and what it was capable of. I didn't go very far with it.

I did thought learn that by finding a clever way to divide things into groups of seven that I could easily remember 49 items. Meaning I could with a group of people be told 49 words (nouns were the only ones I tried) as they were being written on a piece of paper and after they were written be able to name all 49 words without a mistake in the correct order as well as being able to name specific numbers like if someone asked what was the 37th word I would be correct in my answer.

fond memory

Jack makes me matha
I sit on my stool and watch
He explains each step

the forum thread is quiet
we are the only two left


then the anxiety and so i sing along with Leonard
No it wasn't any good
there's no reason
why you should
remember me