PUDDLE

Diane · Post by **Diane** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:47 am

(One of these days I'm gonna have to ask for some instruction about working these quote thingies.)

Steven said:

Fljotsdale and Diane,

Some people, though, unfortunately, don't need
an excuse to hate. Those people may never have a change of
heart and are of the pathological kind. There are
people that have said that ALL expressions of hatred stem from
a pitiable kind of pathology. Viewing it this way, it makes
it easier to have compassion rather than a reactive kind of
hatred towards haters. Sometimes, compassion is the most
viable means of self-defense.

Steven, people who hate have been hated, to put it simply. But I don't think we should necessarily love them. Try to understand them, yes, have compassion for how much they are suffering, yes. But love them, embrace them, accept their behaviour? No, the natural response would be to protect oneself from such people and withdraw from them. Understanding the roots of bad behavour doesn't mean you have to accept it. But then, maybe I'm just agreeing with you.

Fljots said:

Diane said:
Oooh, massive subject. I don't think we should love those who hate us, why would we?

Two reasons, really. Probably more if I stop to think about it more)

1. Because having bad feelings about someone is damaging to US. It affects our peace of mind, and infects our minds with negative thoughts, which have an effect on our attitude, our relationships, and even our physical health.

(WOW! Affect, infect and effect - all in one sentence! I outdo myself, sometimes, LOL!)

You've outdone yourself Fljots!

Yes, I'm only talking about rejecting the views and behaviour of those who hate, not projecting their hatred back onto them.

2. Our bad feelings about people who hate us SHOW; and that gives the hater a kind of justification for their hatred.
So, if we do our utmost to try to behave with love, kindness, compassion, they lose their excuse to hate, which may someday alter their attitude.

True. No point in denying to ourselves how angry they sometimes make us feel though.

Boss said:

Dear Diane,

You suggest you're interested in Buddhism. Have you ever noticed the way a Buddhist devotee lives? They shun materialism completely, giving all they possess to the poor. That doesn't stack up too nicely against the energy of finance. They have their own energy - that of compassion and the endurance of suffering. Sad, that multi-nationals, governments and the consumers of the West don't take a leaf out of their books. They rather idolize the newest Nintendo game or Mazda MX-5. And it is sadder still that so many millions, or billions, of children are all affected by our financial entanglement and downright greed. Love; one can mention. Where does this come in? To keep my spirits high I affirm "It always wins" But avarice is in firm control right now. You can see it in the riots in Paris, you can see it in Rockerfeller Plaza and in a McDonald's advert.

Boss, I believe there are plenty of lay-Buddhists who still lead a 'material' life. I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with wanting things for yourself. But it's so out-of-control, I agree. Again, I feel all you can do is start with yourself, your family and friends, and do what you can on an individual basis.

Love, blow your gentle breeze over this parched, divided Earth. Let us know that you live within each soul, not outside in the driveway, not in a $100 luncheon...

ahh, love reading your posts Boss

.

Love,

Diane

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:44 pm

Steven wrote:Fljotsdale and Diane,

Some people, though, unfortunately, don't need
an excuse to hate. Those people may never have a change of
heart and are of the pathological kind. There are
people that have said that ALL expressions of hatred stem from
a pitiable kind of pathology. Viewing it this way, it makes
it easier to have compassion rather than a reactive kind of
hatred towards haters. Sometimes, compassion is the most
viable means of self-defense.

Yes.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:04 pm

Diane wrote: Steven, people who hate have been hated, to put it simply. But I don't think we should necessarily love them. Try to understand them, yes, have compassion for how much they are suffering, yes. But love them, embrace them, accept their behaviour? No, the natural response would be to protect oneself from such people and withdraw from them. Understanding the roots of bad behavour doesn't mean you have to accept it. But then, maybe I'm just agreeing with you.

I think you are agreeing... but also, you are not understanding, I think,

the word 'love' in this context.
It does NOT mean 'liking' or 'affection' or 'acceptance' of the behaviour of the hater.
It means, as you so rightly said, having understanding and compassion - even that much-despised emotion: pity, for them. And it means helping if you can, in whatever way you can.
And maybe all you can do is not to hate them back. But that is more for our own benefit than theirs.

Love is NOT necessarily affection.

The Greeks had 4 words for love:

Eros = sexual love
Storge = familial love
Agape = principled love
Philia = brotherly/friendship love

All but Agape involve the emotion affection in its various forms.

Agape simply cares. It is involved in all the other three, but it also stands alone.

Diane wrote:
Diane said:
Oooh, massive subject. I don't think we should love those who hate us, why would we?

Two reasons, really. Probably more if I stop to think about it more)

1. Because having bad feelings about someone is damaging to US. It affects our peace of mind, and infects our minds with negative thoughts, which have an effect on our attitude, our relationships, and even our physical health.

(WOW! Affect, infect and effect - all in one sentence! I outdo myself, sometimes, LOL!)
You've outdone yourself Fljots!

Yes, I'm only talking about rejecting the views and behaviour of those who hate, not projecting their hatred back onto them.

OK. Understood.

Diane wrote:
2. Our bad feelings about people who hate us SHOW; and that gives the hater a kind of justification for their hatred.
So, if we do our utmost to try to behave with love, kindness, compassion, they lose their excuse to hate, which may someday alter their attitude.
True. No point in denying to ourselves how angry they sometimes make us feel though.

Agreed.

Boss · Post by **Boss** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:12 pm

Let's think it through. There has always been hate, there has always been Love. And for some outrageous reason it seems that so often hate has won the war. Christ offered the 'known world' a way out. He inferred that peace was the only way. Rome took him on board and then nothing but war. Gandhi fought for India. He devoted his heart, his soul to her. He won her independence. Now she has nuclear weapons aimed at Pakistan.

Just what is this hate anyway? The Oxford states: to 'feel hatred or intense dislike towards'. I assume you want to hurt someone in some way. I'm not ashamed to admit I've felt this before. I failed my Sainthood tests miserably. It is human to hate. Everybody has an element of this inside. Ah, but is it pathological? I have seen people in asylums, real living people, who spit hatred. They are sick in it. They curse all over you, laugh a wicked laugh. And you know, when you look at them, really study them, you see their parents or the injuries that were caused. But in a tense place like a psych ward, Love is present too. You see two young women, confused, scared, holding hands and sharing their last cigarette. They find hope. Love is an affection, it is making someone feel good! IT IS STANDING UP AGAINST EVIL. It is peace.

I can't articulate it any finer, I'm bound by my literary and intellectual prowess. But why this Love and hate? It's just the way the animal evolved. It's just the way the animal evolved. There is no devil/god crap involved. It is just the way the animal evolved. And things can change if one is willing. The power of the Universe beckons you each moment...

Boss

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:22 pm

< * if someone had been monitoring my postings for their level of taste, like I asked , you wouldn't have been subjected to that one, Boss...or you may have, as it could have been a matter of timing, regardless, but be that as it may...no disrespect intended toward you, or the serious import of these multiple, related issues ~ just needed a gallows break * >

However, seriously, there is no "resolv[ing] childhood trauma on a mass scale" ~ hence, I guess, my mind flipped into an entirely different direction with it. That's a Panacea Desire, and childhood trauma deals with individual people. The resolve needs to be individual.

As for preventing it on a mass scale, trying to get everyone in line in terms of seeing children as people vs. things, is a first step. Then, starting to address in myriad ways how people treat people, I guess might be the next.

I know that you are questioning others as to all of the solutions. What might you think, beyond A Common Belief System, would work in the sense of the future? Or, do I need to do some catching up here?

~ Lizzy

Boss · Post by **Boss** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:01 pm

To have a reverence for this planet. To love it, every bit of it from an annoying seagull to a dog with metal plates in his leg. For everyone to ascertain that they cherish Life. The good, the bad, the indifferent. For every couple about to make love to realise that that act is sacrosanct, sacred. That a child may occur and with that you have responsibility for a good 20 years or more. To have this information on the nightly news, to have it everywhere. For people to realise that ignoring a child is catastrophic. Children are life. I know every child is an individual but if things were done more collectively people may get the point.

I hope for a leader to emerge from this cesspit of leaders we have today who has compassion in his heart. Who knows love. Someone to lead, Someone Humanity would respect and listen to his wisdom. It's written in the books, I don't see why it can't happen. The leaders of today are jaded. They are stained with etiquette, they sip their tea with dishonest mouths. They spray their feelgood bullshit all over the place and I have to listen to it. Everyday they send us further and further down. The Moshiach is near. How I pray for his coming. This explains my closeness to The Future.

Ecologically we are fucked. It can't go on. But, if we spent our time on rectifying the problems, instead of building more arsenals of weapons or sending more rubbish into outer space, perhaps we could triumph. The atmosphere is our lungs. This cancer we add each day we start the car or burn a coal-fired power station just eats it away. I'm getting tired Lizzy, it's midnight. I haven't really got many ideas. I am a simple man. One who feels G-d's presence all around me. Childhood trauma is the reason for war, and hatred. It disfigures healthy souls. Something must be done to raise the awareness of this. I watched my brother kill himself because his father just didn't care enough. He was too interested in writing fucking poetry!

I know I gave you little in the way of solutions, but so be it...

Boss

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:04 pm

< * thanks, someone, for the acknowledgement, received in tandem, immediately after/upon Submitting. * >

~ Lizzy

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:12 pm

Dear Boss ~

Yes, I understand. It is all about as overwhelming as it possibly could be. My gallows break was totally unrelated to the tragedy of your and your girlfriend's unspeakably sad losses. The 'vision' I addressed in my comment was of the battlefields of today and throughout history. The slogan might as well hang on a banner above them all. Or, are greed and lust for power and control inherent?

~ Lizzy

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:49 pm

Dear Fljots ~

Let's leave the swords out of it, huh?

Yes, friends.

Sheesh! I hope we don't have a row now!

"The pen is mightier than the sword." - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

Looks like we're still on safe ground, Fljots

. No bloodshed

. Besides, I find you far too reasonable to even have a concern there

.

Love,
Your swordless friend,
Lizzy

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:13 pm

Diane,

"people who hate have been hated, to put it simply." Or neglected,
misunderstood, etc.

Love is an antidote for the further spread of hate. It displaces
anger, which is injurious to its posessor and others. Love is the
idealized response. It does not mean, i.m.o., an acceptance of
the wrong actions. There are other, less lofty, ways to
deal with hate. Some come with adverse affects for everyone
involved, though. Some do not.

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:33 pm

Fljotsdale,

I think we are in agreement about, and are also sharing a
similar understanding of the word "love" in this context.

As you almost certainly know, "agape" was the greek word used by
bible translators to speak of the highest level of love, where it
was unconditional or of a divine nature. Agape is congruent with some of
what Diane was saying about what love does not require.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:03 pm

Steven wrote:Fljotsdale,

I think we are in agreement about, and are also sharing a
similar understanding of the word "love" in this context.

As you almost certainly know, "agape" was the greek word used by
bible translators to speak of the highest level of love, where it
was unconditional or of a divine nature. Agape is congruent with some of
what Diane was saying about what love does not require.

Yes, I do know, Steven.

But it does not have to be only in a divine context, you know. Ordinary people like us can live by it, too, even if we don't always succeed!

I only ever hated once in my life. I was a child.
As an adult, I have felt anger, rage - even incandescent rage at times, even verging on murderous; but not hate. I have been aware almost all my life that people have reasons for acting as they do. Experience teaches a lot, very early.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:06 pm

lizzytysh wrote: Looks like we're still on safe ground, Fljots . No bloodshed . Besides, I find you far too reasonable to even have a concern there .

Love,
Your swordless friend,
Lizzy

Bloody-minded, but eminently reasonable. That's me.

Love ya, girl!

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:08 pm

Boss wrote:

...snip...

I agree with so much that you say, Boss - yet we come from opposite sides of the universe, religiously speaking.

Isn't it good that we agree on so much?

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:24 pm

Hi Boss,

On a global scale, I too hope that Moshiach is near. On a micro-scale,
I've seen enough transformations in individuals to realize that there
is a Moshiach-like potential in everyone.

For whatever reason, the late Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach's teachings
and music are coming to mind as relevant to the above thoughts.
His CDs are available and there are some websites devoted to
his teachings and music. You may want to check them out.

For anyone interested,

I'll be leaving this weekend for a week of training and won't have
a computer with me. I've also got to prepare for it and there
is the Thanksgiving holiday, here in the U.S., so my participation
here will be little, if any, for awhile.