Katrina

[Mirek]

Dear Dem

Armed (i.e. Saddam)mostly by Russians - don't try to tell me that AK-47 was made in the US.

Armed also by Russians yes.
And French too (for example Mirage fighter planes)

But the knowledge and the materials for the development of chemical weapons that Saddam did have in the past and did use(Halajba) where sold to him as everybody knows by the USA and Britain.
(see for example:http://www.sundayherald.com/27572)

Armed MAINLY by Russians. Don't forget the MIGs SUs etc.

I don't deny that almost every country has sold their weapons to Iraq. The same applies to Afghanistan and many other countries.

That is NOT an answer, dear Dem. You haven't learned about the civil war in the 40s in YOUR country? I can't believe that. Or - probably you wouldn't like to remember that. That's just a short text to refresh your poor memory.

I assure you dear Mirek I know the history of my country far better than you do (if not for any other reason just because I have attended a Greek school for twelve years and studied in a Greek University while I guess you haven't)

OK, so you wouldn't like to discuss those things with anyone that has not attended Greek schools of various levels?

You were cought to have made a gaffe by mixing the colonels of the
60's with the civil war of the 40's.
So I don't have to add anything more.
Read first some basics in the Greek history.

Yes, I admit that I mixed those two periods, but that doesn't make any difference - there were times in Greek history that are not as clear as one can think.
If you don't want to continue - that's OK with me. Wouldn't it be easier to say: I don't want to answer your questions.

Oh, yes!!! The OFFICIAL answer - you're absolutely right. Do you think officials would say "hey, yes we have killed all of them!"???

Please read carefully what I write.
I didn't say that I adopt the official view.
I just said what it is.

Sorry, but you have written the sentence witout any comment of your own.

I won't give you any evidence. I will ask YOU - where were all those dogs and cats taken? Wee're not talking about a hudred of them - we're referring to THOUSANDS!

There is an ongoing discussion in Greece on the subject.
The major Greek newspaper "Eleftherotypia" had just recently a special
feature on it.
(http://www.iospress.gr/ios2005/ios20050710.htmunfortunately Greek text only)

Some are probably killed.
Others are deported to foreign countries.
And many of them are back in the streets.

Hmmm... interesting... deported to foreign countries...
Do you think they were seeking the status of political refugees in Greece but the authorities didn't allow them to stay?

When was the last time you visited Athens?

Many, many years ago - unfortunately, becaouse I really love Greece as such. Many nice memories from just one journey throughout the whole country.

One simple question - do you pay taxes?

One simple answer-no I don't.

Ah, I see.. well - that makes this discussion even more interesting. Do you feel OK while using facilities built using public money - like streets etc?

Well, this discussion starts to be very political.

Mirek

[Dem]

Dear Mirek,

I have no problem discussing anything with anyone.
But there is a prerequisite.
The other person must know the basics of the subject in question.

Now, I will be glad to talk about the recent Greek history with you.
What exactly do you want to discuss?

I would suggest to start with the intervention of the British and the Americans in the Greek civil war.

How about discussing the images of Spitfires and Hurricanes bombing and straffing the center of Athens back in the 40's?
Killing their Greek allies that had fought so heroically alongside them against the Nazis and the Italian fascists?

Maybe the decade of 50's when communists, artists, poets, actors etc were sent into exile in some dry Greek island just because they were "left"?

Or perhaps you would prefer the more recent 1967 junta (sponsored by the CIA)?

Just choose a theme.

(But as a warning: I don't feel responsible for anything that happened before my birth, which was in 1970).

Hmmm... interesting... deported to foreign countries...
Do you think they were seeking the status of political refugees in Greece but the authorities didn't allow them to stay?

No because the dogs we are talking about are native ones and not political refugees
But there are some groups(like Noah's Ark Creta http://www.archenoah-kreta.com/) that take care of stray animals by sending some of them abroad for adaption (at least that's what they claim).

Other react to this because they believe that the "exported" animals are killed in the foreign countries or used in test labs etc.
There is a fight going on in the courts right now about this.

But in general I have to admit that the situation in Greece for the animals is not the appropriate.
(Even in beloved Hydra which is full of cats the situation is not the one it should be.)

You show your civilization by how you treat the weak, the poor, the old, the animals.
And Greeks have a lot more to do on this field, especially concerning the stray animals.

Do you feel OK while using facilities built using public money - like streets etc?

I feel fine as long as I am perfectly legitimate.

Dem

[Tchocolatl]

Bee, I did not want to compare minute by minute two sorts of human tragedy, I wanted to stress how these extreme experience bring extreme behaviours and emotions good or bad and that this is normal. To blame some people for that is "stupid" or if you prefer - I prefer - non only useless but makes the situation worse.

As I already said where there is poverty there is a lot of criminality - this everywhere in the world - and it appears that the hurricance hit one of the poorest states of the US, and this is not during a crisis that social problemes that go for centuries solve by themselves by miracle. No they are just going worst.

Of course it is important to keep order and peace as much as possible.

That does not mean one has to take the opportunity to hit people already very badly treated by life. This makes me sick.

In the contrary, I think that we should listen to report that changing minute to mintune. This morning they are saying that US government saved the money that was supposed to go to this area to put it on Iraq war and on work to built a new taxes system that saves its weight in gold to the financial aristocracy of US. I call this decay.

And when it takes so long to the super power to help the poorest people between them I don't call it an act of God of "shit happens". I call it a I-don't-care-for-people-act.

Oh! yes... Some people from the withe house also said that hurricanes are blessings because they proved to be jobs increasers, they are good for... the economy.

Now this is a personal choice but I prefer people to money.


http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp ... 1001051313

Have a nice day, dear Bee.

[Dem]

Looting There, Looting Here
Fallujah There, New Orleans Here

from Juan Cole's blog:

http://www.juancole.com/

Juan Cole is Professor of History at the University of Michigan

[Young dr. Freud]

Demwit,

I know the history of my country far better than you do (if not for any other reason just because I have attended a Greek school for twelve years and studied in a Greek University while I guess you haven't)

Ha. Ha. Funny ain't it. Your Greekness makes you an expert on everbody's else's country too.

(But as a warning: I don't feel responsible for anything that happened before my birth, which was in 1970).

Ha. Ha. More funny business. That means all the rest of us are not responsible for anything that happened before our births too. Thanks for the pass. So stop yammering at us about what all the rest of the world did to your country during WWII and the fifties and 500 BC. We're just not responsible.

Quote:
One simple question - do you pay taxes?


One simple answer-no I don't.

I knew it. A Greek deadbeat.

YdF

[jurica]

nobody can be blamed for what happened before his/her birth. that much is obvious. are Germans going to prisons because their grandfathers killed 6 million Jews? do Americans go to prison for killing (how many were there killed? 40 million or so? i don't realy remember.) Indians?

[Byron]

jurica, people find it very difficult to distinguish between remembering and blaming.

[Young dr. Freud]

nobody can be blamed for what happened before his/her birth. that much is obvious.

Perhaps you could kindly inform Deadbeat Dem of this. Or, better yet...I have an idea....everybody on the forum should post the year of their birth. That way Dem could personalize his diatribes and be certain to apportion the blame to the right people. Of course, the older you are the more you will be "responsible" for. Hey, Lizzytysh...you were alive in the sixties...you can be responsible for the "1967 junta sponsored by the CIA."

people find it very difficult to distinguish between remembering and blaming.

Dem isn't remembering...he's blaming. Everybody's responsible but him because he was born in the watershed year of 1970.



YdF

[Mirek]

(But as a warning: I don't feel responsible for anything that happened before my birth, which was in 1970).

Dem

Oh, NO!!! Then you must not refer to Greek history and culture - that was formed long before you were born.

You should either accept or reject EVERYTHING - no 'buts'.

Otherwise that doesn't make ANY sense, my dear boy.

The other thing is - how many american schools did you attend? Did you finish any CIA schools? I presume not - then why are you referring to the history of CIA etc?

Believe me - I am not a fan of Bush - I am against the war in Iraq - THIS war - started by Bush administration.
I am not the fan of american democracy. But I am one of the few here that lived in a communist country. I remember martial law in Poland, I also remember fear and senseless death of many people. I remember curfew after 6pm, empty shops etc.

And it was, among others, American president Ronald Reagan and american people, who supported us during those sad days of martial law.
I am very happy that this is history now and I hope it will never happen again.

Now you can say - hey... you are responsible for martial law in Poland, because you were already born. Is this the way I should think?

Mirek

[lizzytysh]

[YdF ~ I was alive in the Sixties, and may have been on a CIA list ~ they weren't always as discerning as one might think when compiling and adding to them.]

Paula ~ I've heard on NPR that Fats Domino is well. No mention was made of his having been missing, but in an interview with another jazz man was listed along with the Nevilles and other musicians, who were known to be fine. He said the music scene there is just on a long intermission, but will thrive, regardless. The man being interviewed was there for the hurricane and evacuated when the water began to rise in his home. His first floor is gone, with his equipment, but he's undaunted by that.

[Joe Way]

Hi Lizzy,

You are sounding better, even though you probably worked the last couple of days (as did I). I found your overheard conversations interesting (though it was from another thread-but I don't have energy to answer them all). I still haven't heard from St. Squidgy and I'll look to Craig's list to post something as suggested-hopefully she would be flattered that so many of us who count her as a friend would worry about her even though we mostly know her through this ether of the internet. Take care of yourself and know that there are many here among us who admire your insight and compassion.

Dear YDF,

Yes, you are right. I certainly cannot keep my Biblical analogies straight at all can I? It was really Jonah of whom I was thinking-though I found the quote from another source. I should be heading toward Tarshish right now as he did trying to get away rather than say anymore about these subjects with you-but I'd probably find myself in the belly of the whale anyway-so what the heck.

My friend, the little bit of redneck guy, is one of my oldest and dearest companions. He's recovering from a small stroke and we're going on a fishing and camping trip together in less than two weeks. I can call him anything I want right now because he needs to depend on me to set up his tent and carry all of his heavy gear to our island refuge. My comment about him and the looters was not intended to be judgmental about the looters at all. What I meant was that here he was missing a relative and he's focusing on how happy he was that they said they were going to blast some of those looters away. I asked him if he thought that his sister-in-law was in danger from them and he didn't think so. My point in this (and here let me acknowledge Tri-me who mentioned this in another post) is that what we choose to focus on becomes our reality.

Have you ever seen those little pictures that you look at and see a peacock and someone says do you see the beautiful lady? All of the visual information is there, but our mind reaches toward those patterns that look like something we recognize and we say that it is this or that. Truly it is only squiggles on a page that we interpret. We can't help this-it is how we experience the world. One can, though, recognize that this is taking place and choose the direction these patterns take.

There are many activities and the essense of life going on now in NO. You can focus on what you term the despicable behavior of these people and how they won't get what they truly deserve or you can choose hundreds if not thousands of other patterns that attract your attention. Personally, I think that those things that our dear Lizzytych is concentrating on aren't too bad a place to start. She will always be one of the open-hearted (and it is up to us to decide if they are few or many).

I won't go back to those Biblical analogies in the fear that you would think that I am one of those who attributes the causality of our life to a definitive outside source. I am even less inclined to place the blame for this event on God than I am to place it on George Bush for not signing the Kyoto treaties. Neither-I am SURE-had this on an agenda.

All that I've said not withstanding-I enjoy your contributions to our forum and look forward to your continued interest. Perhaps someday you will find the role of disinterested scientific observer limited and decide that what we really need is some affimation of our good behavior.

Dear Bee,

I'm glad you enjoyed my post. I always enjoy hearing from you also. I did not mean to imply that the poor people of NO were acting as if they were only waiting for help before taking actions of their own. There are times-much like when I waited for that bus to take me away from the cold ending of that cross country ski race-when we are dependant on our fellow humans for support. No man is an island. It is equally important for us to express our gratitude in this regard as well as asserting our independant, responsible nature. Read Job's response-it is very powerful.

Dear Tchoco-

I'm sorry about throwing that term "redneck" out there. You probably don't know about the line from David Allen Coe who said-"My long hair just can't cover up my redneck." Or even more, Randy Newman who wrote a song called "Rednecks." I would quote the chorus but it would only lead us down ever more tumultuous paths. Instead I'll quote one of the verses which I've lately been associating with our President Bush:

"College men from LSU
Went in dumb, came out dumb too,
Hustling round Atlanta in their alligator shoes,
Getting drunk every weekend at the Barbeques,
And they're...."

Our President, who perhaps makes up for in sincerity what he lacks in common sense and was seen hugging quite a few refugees and appearing with some politicians who criticized him quite severely before making up in public, mentioned how he used to come to NO to party (too much as he said jokingly). Now Randy Newman ends the song with a bit of a scathing indictment of folks from the north in the U. S. If I had a link, I would point you to Jeff Foxworthy who is the poet laurate of the redneck crowd.

I should mention, Tchoco, that I smile and chuckle at your posts very often. You certainly have a gift (and a good heart).

To those of you in U. S.-have a happy Labor day.

Joe

[Nan]

Mirek, I remember those days of the Solidarity Movement. We here in America thought the Polish people very brave in their revolt against the Soviet overlords. There was much concern by the average man and woman here over the fate of Poland. I remember that my parents put a candle in the windows of our home at Christmas when former President Reagan asked us to do that. To show our solidarity with the Polish people. In our town the homes were shineing brightly for you all. I know a candle shineing isn't much help but we meant it nonetheless.

[Tchocolatl]

jurica, people find it very difficult to distinguish between remembering and blaming.

So true, and also between being asked to take their responsibility or just to put in question something about themselves, and being blamed. A question of emotional maturity, I guess. Well it is a hability that develops like the rest : with practice.

YDF, what do you think, that you zipped my mouth because the guy is a History prof? First red necks can also be History prof. Second, nobody said the stealing and the shooting and the social disorder is OK.

Well, not me.

I said that this is normal, because where there is criminality - as we acknowledge the word - it goes worse in crisis time, not that I find this paradise. We are on Earth here. Better be realistic. Besides, the majority of people there, are more than OK.

It is when I see spitfull people that focus on this little portion of bandits who misbehave while those same people are completely silent and blind in regard of the scandal of not having answer to this emergency as it should have been done, this makes me sick.

Also some people stole pampers for babies, and food, now I don't think they deserve to go into jail for that or "have to pay dearly".

[lizzytysh]

There is a distinction between looting [committed for profit or ill use] and taking items for sustenance of life and health in the midst of a major, life-threatening disaster. Items that no one but those there have any use for until long after the disaster. Items that are covered by 'content insurance.'

I do not know the veracity of the things I've heard, but I'll share these three, anyway.

(1) A female customer in the restaurant shared several days ago that she had seen on TV a report that prisoners from a nearby prison had broken out and had been looting, raping, and committing other acts of violence against evacuees and other victims of the hurricane. She was the only source of this, so it's possibly a rumour that showed up on TV; or, it may be something that gets focused on later. Had I thought I might not be hearing this again, I'd have pursued on the source of it with her.

(2) A male customer who lived in New Orleans for two years said that New Orleans has the highest crime rate in the country [don't know if he was specifically referring to when he lived there; overall, the average across the years; or right now and ongoing], and that gangs ~ the serious, tattoo-bearing-all-over-them, colours-wearing, kind ~ are a serious problem in New Orleans, and he believes they probably intentionally remained behind with the sole intent of looting for the kinds of items they got and their actions toward already-victimized people.

(3) I am stressing here that I am only relaying this information for consideration. It does not represent my views, as I simply do not know. My brother [who has spent a great deal of time in New Orleans with his shrimper friends] commented in one of my recent conversations with him, that the Blacks you see doing the looting are most likely not your typical, inner-city Blacks like those of Chicago, Atlanta, and other major cities; but that they are probably of the element who have settled in New Orleans from the island areas like Jamaica, where they lived in abject poverty and had a wholly different attitude toward the sanctity of life. He said that they came here in desperation, and their reactions to situations like this [where they can prey on the vulnerability of others] are not the same as the vast majority of the Blacks one sees gathered at the Superdome and Convention Center, demonstrating love, care, and concern for their babies, their relatives, and their brethren brothers and sisters. He also believes [like the customer who lived there for two years] that, even if they had a way out, they probably stayed behind with the intent of doing what they've been doing.

My comment regarding #2 and #3 is that these perspectives are consistent with the influx of gang members from the island areas, into the southern part of the U.S. and which has begun to present as a growing problem in areas as small as where I live, for the purpose of drug sales and general, gang activity. These people would be of a criminal mentality. That is said to distinguish them from the immigrants coming here, simply to have a 'better life' and to be able to provide better for their families and loved ones. I feel it's necessary that I purposely make this distinction, before someone runs on a tangent saying that I said all immigrants are criminals and gang members .

So, these are some additional possibilities on the looting issue. Generally, human nature is to help each other out when in crisis and disaster. This is certainly being demonstrated by the people who are rallying to gather goods and contributions to help, as well as those in the stricken areas who are doing their best to keep the others alive and pleading for help; if not for themselves, for the ones who lie dying next to them.

~ Elizabeth

[lizzytysh]

Hi Joe ~

Yes, I am feeling better; thank you for noticing and commenting on that. Bleeding is still occurring through the tourniquet of seeing some rescue happen, and sheer time for acceptance of the fact of this whole reality. Yes, I have, indeed, worked the last couple days. Today is a very rare day off; one I'd intended for many things, beginning with sleeping in [for the first time in months]. However, daylight and the canine/feline worlds interrupted that plan with approximately perfect timing. As I wanted to more finely tune my comment to Jarkko and Eija on that beautiful photo of the two of them, it happened to be my first thought upon awakening, and I came straight to the computer. My animals have since been fed, but I have a day's, planned work ahead that I need to start on pronto, or the day could easily slip away with little to nothing getting done here . I am feeling majorly blessed since Friday, when [or Thursday? ~ the days run together when you're working all seven of them] I learned that we will be going to a 10-hour, 4-day workweek starting September 12. If I'm granted my 2nd-choice, requested Monday for my additional day off, I'll actually have a semblance of a weekend [from 2-3 PM in the afternoon on Sunday, through till Monday night]. It was my second choice only because Monday wasn't included, with the suggested days of Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday. However, those days are the least busy for other workers; whereas, for me and my immediate co-worker, Mondays are the slowest. So, we'll see how it goes. At any rate, I will have one day guaranteed for me, and for getting some, much-needed rest.

Last night, I went ahead and posted an "Unknown" as to Squidgy's whereabouts on the Gulf Coast News site. I gave your name as the first to contact, and mine second [with my phone number and e-mail address], with a final request that she simply notify us through the Forum, and ended it with "We love you." There are so many sites for listing that it's mind-boggling and overwhelming. I was going to go on and list on the CNN site, as well, but decided that one was okay for starters, and that since you were going to list on Craig's list, that would be two, at least for now. I read through several Survivors lists that, thankfully, were in alphabetical order. The list sites, of course, stress that your not finding the person you're looking for should not be presumed to be an indication of their status, that more names are coming in all the time.

It then occurred to me that there was possibly one more, pro-active thing I could do before I went to bed, and I looked Johanna up in the white- pages listings, since some phones have miraculously continued to work. I was thrilled to find her name and address, and felt hopeful when her street address didn't say "New Orleans," but "Gretna." The area codes are the same, though; and since I know that some people make quick reference to the largest city they're near, when asked where they're from, just so they don't have to go through the whole geographical description thing for no reason, I hoped that, that was the case and, perhaps, she was far enough from New Orleans proper to have not been quite so directly and dangerously affected. I looked it up on Mapquest, however, and it shows as dreadfully close, enough to be almost a matter of location-name semantics. It also showed as being south of New Orleans, so a big hit, as well as possible storm surge/flooding.

I called her and got a normal ringing, but no answer, after at least twenty-five rings. Of course, this could mean her non-working phone is simply processing this way, for whatever, bizarre reason; or, that her phone is working and she's possibly, as you've suggested, off helping others, or evacuated to safety somewhere. So, I returned to the white pages and wrote down the numbers of the other three sharing her last name. One was in the same area code, and when I checked Mapquest, was very, very close to Lake Pontchartrain. This was a clearly-Hispanic-sounding name and I called that number first, on the off-chance that it was a relative, who had, perhaps, either given her shelter [and came through relatively unscathed]; had traveled with her, but had returned home, with/without her, but knew of her whereabouts; or had spoken with her and knew of her plans, and possibly heard from her since. That number just rang, as well, for an approximately-equal number of times. The remaining two numbers were located in the same town, and appeared to be relatives to each other, and were in a different area code. I called the first one and got an answer. We talked for approximately 1/2 hour. He is not related [nor is his relative, at the other number ~ those two families, and another related one are at the number I called, due to damage to their homes] to Squidgy, and doesn't know the name. His town is approximately 57 miles from where she lives, and he still considers where she lives to be "New Orleans." He said where she lives definitely got badly hit and messed up.

He happened to be in Florida at the time, and is fine. They have contacted all of their relatives and confirmed that they are all fine. Our conversation was a caring and concerned, but not weepy one. My voice started to crack only as we were hanging up and he wished me luck in finding her.

I know what you mean about energy in answering these postings. You put a tremendous amount of thought into your postings, and it does take a lot of energy to give them the attention you feel is warranted. When you're working a lot and already tired, it can be an additional drain. I've tended to read yours and answer them the following day, simply because I've wanted to give them the kind of reply they are due.

Thank you, again, for your support, Joe. Not that I can't fend for myself in these arenas, but that is simply not the point, and I know it. I appreciate all that you've said. There are many things I don't mind being criticized for. Anything related to compassion is one of them. I've been living with me all my life, and I know what's real and how I react ~ as in thought, deed, and action ~ to situations that call for it. I'm not the little Jew, who wrote the Bible, but I can truly say to some, "You don't know me from the wind. You never did, you never will."

Love,
Lizzy