Don't forget the poem "Last thoughts on Woody Guthrie" which is read by Dylan on the "Bootleg series vol.1-3".
Come to think of it, it does have a lot in common with rap.
http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/guthrie.html
Rob.
BOB DYLAN IS A GREATER SONGSTER THAN LEONARD COHEN
I think Tom is a very different musician. He always seems to play a macho figure - I'm never sure how much of it is honesty, and how much showmanship, so humility plays a lesser role. It's a case of enjoying the humour and grittiness of his lyrics, rather than the poeticism of Leonard or Bob's social significance.lizzytysh wrote:So, how is Waits in this regard?
Thanks for the link, Rob. I wasn't aware of this poem.Rob wrote:Don't forget the poem "Last thoughts on Woody Guthrie".
Visit the comments on this thread and you'll see Dylan fans politeness against the people who does not share their beliefs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSGy5Fo049g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSGy5Fo049g
Hi Antonio ~
I went last night and watched and listened to Dylan [and having said that went just now to listen again as I'm writing, though it's now getting a bit hard to concentrate with my listening] ~ however, I decided to wait to say something here until after someone you were already involved in this discussion with had responded. However, the first thing I was going to say was what Tim has already, just said. All Dylan fans are not like that. First, we have Ken from Liverpool and he would never dream of responding to you like that; Tim, I can't imagine ever responding like that; and Kush I've seen say some things that might seem provocative, but not like that. I know for absolutely certain that there are many, many [I'd guess, in fact, the majority of] Dylan fans who wouldn't respond like that.
All that said, when I saw what you wrote there, I felt the same as Tim has noted, that it seems a bit provocative on your part to begin with... I don't know how many Dylan fans who don't like Cohen [is that possible
] would go to a link of Cohen singing a song from that time and make similar comments about Leonard's singing. I felt a bit non-plussed when I saw you write that [or very similar] in this thread, and here you're surrounding by Cohen fans... vs. being out there in YouTube land, where the majority who will click on that link will be Dylan people, even diehard Dylan people. So, you're likely to get some comments that come from a more emotional place... and they won't always be keeping the issue and the person separate... as was the case in some of those responses.
As for what Dylan fans/Cohen fans are expected to be and going to be like... they come in all varieties. There are some Cohen fans who would respond to an attack on Leonard such as you've levied on Bob.
With regard to Dylan and that song... it took me back in wonderful ways to a time when I wished [and still wish] I could have been at that concert. As so often happens in performances, his delivery wasn't exact to how it's recorded and every dip and loop and rise and fall you're anticipating isn't delivered... but that's fine. Dylan came to his fame during a time when there were many social/political changes going on here... there was a huge thrust surrounding the blacks in America; there was the VietNam War; there was the anti-establishment movement of the hippies; there was a lot. Dylan was part and parcel of all that, as assigned to him by his fans [whether he endorsed the whole of it may be another matter]... he was a beacon of change, in any case. If you liked Dylan, at all, you more likely loved Dylan. You sang along to his songs with passion... and if I'd been at that concert, I'd have listened to it with passion. Even listening to and watching it now, I feel passion.
When I went to see Dylan in Atlanta [and ended up seeing him only one of the two nights I'd bought my tickets for... talking the concert people into letting my friend use the other one on the same night ~ NO idea how that happened
!], anyway, when I went to see him, he did NOT perform some of these 'original' songs with which I have such a strong association... he was on to a new album and promoting it. I can't even remember which ones he sang. I would have loved it if he had sang this one.
When it comes to judging Dylan, it's similar to judging Leonard... it's not the quality of the voice, so much as the expression of the heart. This is where it gets a little tricky. Our period in the U.S. when all this was taking place is wrapped up in what our heart takes in as being an expression of it... both the singer's and ours. So, for a Dylan fan, the expression of heart may not be perceived by you in the same way. The things that Dylan sang about during that time were emotionally loaded for Dylan fans. He was singing 'for them.' I'm not sure how long you've been listening to him, but I'm guessing you probably wouldn't have these same associations.
If I were to listen to a song written and performed during a war-torn time in a Western European country, it could be the unofficial anthem of that country to both the young and old who were there during the conflicts and directly experienced the heavy emotions. I could not like it, like it, or love it for what it said or the way it sounds... yet, it would still probably not resonate with me in that very same way as with them because it didn't encapsulate my own experience. So, backing off from it a bit, from a purely objective standpoint; my evaluation of it and the quality or style of the singing might be surprizingly different than someone else's, especially someone who was there.
All that said, it might seem I've painted myself into a corner... because Ken wasn't here... Tim wasn't here... and I don't believe Kush was here [and if he was, he may have been on the establishment side, anyway]... so I can't necessarily account for why they are such Dylan fans from the perspective I've described above. They'll have to give you their own reasons. However, that perspective is the one that explains my feelings about Dylan... and, perhaps, also explains why you may not understand such positive furor about him. If you're looking at it from a quality of singing standpoint, you can forget Dylan, anyway. It's not about voice quality with him, but expression.
The pretentious allegation might be able to be made by some who watched the movie that was recently made about Dylan, and about how there seemed to be some disparity between how he felt and what he sang and why he was singing it... however, this information came too many years too late for me. Dylan's music registered in my heart too strongly too long ago to be excised now because the information registers in the mind, my heart doesn't have one of those, and when I listen, the music still goes straight to my heart.
I would have been interested to see you explain on YouTube [or here, really] why you feel how you do about Dylan's singing as you do, rather than label it with inflammatory buzz words, which are usually geared to, and guaranteed to, get a reaction. Rather than just comparing him to others you know in the areas you mention, just compare Dylan 'to himself'... what is it that comes across as being pretentious when he sings? His harmonica playing has always thrilled me... the nasal twists in his voice were so incredibly unique to the time and what was considered potential for being successful... yet, they grabbed a different part of me as a listener; perhaps, that part that does become twisted emotionally, in response to things we see happening around us... and that twist becomes symbolic of our emotional response. I don't know.
I'm sorry that you feel so negatively about Dylan. I don't question for even a milli-second that there are performers who are 'better' ~ yet, are they representative, can they even be representative, of the times in the U.S. when Dylan rose to fame as a voice for the young and disenchanted?
Okay, I'm done. I haven't had a cup of coffee, yet, so I'll go finish making that. I'd really be interested... and hope you'll consent to doing it... to see you take each of the words you've used to label Dylan and just give an objective description of what you see or hear that makes you feel that way about him. Maybe you will or maybe you just won't want to bother trying, Antonio, but I hope you'll at least consider doing it.
Meanwhile, please know that all Dylan fans are not like some of those who responded to you there.
~ Lizzy
I went last night and watched and listened to Dylan [and having said that went just now to listen again as I'm writing, though it's now getting a bit hard to concentrate with my listening] ~ however, I decided to wait to say something here until after someone you were already involved in this discussion with had responded. However, the first thing I was going to say was what Tim has already, just said. All Dylan fans are not like that. First, we have Ken from Liverpool and he would never dream of responding to you like that; Tim, I can't imagine ever responding like that; and Kush I've seen say some things that might seem provocative, but not like that. I know for absolutely certain that there are many, many [I'd guess, in fact, the majority of] Dylan fans who wouldn't respond like that.
All that said, when I saw what you wrote there, I felt the same as Tim has noted, that it seems a bit provocative on your part to begin with... I don't know how many Dylan fans who don't like Cohen [is that possible
] would go to a link of Cohen singing a song from that time and make similar comments about Leonard's singing. I felt a bit non-plussed when I saw you write that [or very similar] in this thread, and here you're surrounding by Cohen fans... vs. being out there in YouTube land, where the majority who will click on that link will be Dylan people, even diehard Dylan people. So, you're likely to get some comments that come from a more emotional place... and they won't always be keeping the issue and the person separate... as was the case in some of those responses. As for what Dylan fans/Cohen fans are expected to be and going to be like... they come in all varieties. There are some Cohen fans who would respond to an attack on Leonard such as you've levied on Bob.
With regard to Dylan and that song... it took me back in wonderful ways to a time when I wished [and still wish] I could have been at that concert. As so often happens in performances, his delivery wasn't exact to how it's recorded and every dip and loop and rise and fall you're anticipating isn't delivered... but that's fine. Dylan came to his fame during a time when there were many social/political changes going on here... there was a huge thrust surrounding the blacks in America; there was the VietNam War; there was the anti-establishment movement of the hippies; there was a lot. Dylan was part and parcel of all that, as assigned to him by his fans [whether he endorsed the whole of it may be another matter]... he was a beacon of change, in any case. If you liked Dylan, at all, you more likely loved Dylan. You sang along to his songs with passion... and if I'd been at that concert, I'd have listened to it with passion. Even listening to and watching it now, I feel passion.
When I went to see Dylan in Atlanta [and ended up seeing him only one of the two nights I'd bought my tickets for... talking the concert people into letting my friend use the other one on the same night ~ NO idea how that happened
!], anyway, when I went to see him, he did NOT perform some of these 'original' songs with which I have such a strong association... he was on to a new album and promoting it. I can't even remember which ones he sang. I would have loved it if he had sang this one.When it comes to judging Dylan, it's similar to judging Leonard... it's not the quality of the voice, so much as the expression of the heart. This is where it gets a little tricky. Our period in the U.S. when all this was taking place is wrapped up in what our heart takes in as being an expression of it... both the singer's and ours. So, for a Dylan fan, the expression of heart may not be perceived by you in the same way. The things that Dylan sang about during that time were emotionally loaded for Dylan fans. He was singing 'for them.' I'm not sure how long you've been listening to him, but I'm guessing you probably wouldn't have these same associations.
If I were to listen to a song written and performed during a war-torn time in a Western European country, it could be the unofficial anthem of that country to both the young and old who were there during the conflicts and directly experienced the heavy emotions. I could not like it, like it, or love it for what it said or the way it sounds... yet, it would still probably not resonate with me in that very same way as with them because it didn't encapsulate my own experience. So, backing off from it a bit, from a purely objective standpoint; my evaluation of it and the quality or style of the singing might be surprizingly different than someone else's, especially someone who was there.
All that said, it might seem I've painted myself into a corner... because Ken wasn't here... Tim wasn't here... and I don't believe Kush was here [and if he was, he may have been on the establishment side, anyway]... so I can't necessarily account for why they are such Dylan fans from the perspective I've described above. They'll have to give you their own reasons. However, that perspective is the one that explains my feelings about Dylan... and, perhaps, also explains why you may not understand such positive furor about him. If you're looking at it from a quality of singing standpoint, you can forget Dylan, anyway. It's not about voice quality with him, but expression.
The pretentious allegation might be able to be made by some who watched the movie that was recently made about Dylan, and about how there seemed to be some disparity between how he felt and what he sang and why he was singing it... however, this information came too many years too late for me. Dylan's music registered in my heart too strongly too long ago to be excised now because the information registers in the mind, my heart doesn't have one of those, and when I listen, the music still goes straight to my heart.
I would have been interested to see you explain on YouTube [or here, really] why you feel how you do about Dylan's singing as you do, rather than label it with inflammatory buzz words, which are usually geared to, and guaranteed to, get a reaction. Rather than just comparing him to others you know in the areas you mention, just compare Dylan 'to himself'... what is it that comes across as being pretentious when he sings? His harmonica playing has always thrilled me... the nasal twists in his voice were so incredibly unique to the time and what was considered potential for being successful... yet, they grabbed a different part of me as a listener; perhaps, that part that does become twisted emotionally, in response to things we see happening around us... and that twist becomes symbolic of our emotional response. I don't know.
I'm sorry that you feel so negatively about Dylan. I don't question for even a milli-second that there are performers who are 'better' ~ yet, are they representative, can they even be representative, of the times in the U.S. when Dylan rose to fame as a voice for the young and disenchanted?
Okay, I'm done. I haven't had a cup of coffee, yet, so I'll go finish making that. I'd really be interested... and hope you'll consent to doing it... to see you take each of the words you've used to label Dylan and just give an objective description of what you see or hear that makes you feel that way about him. Maybe you will or maybe you just won't want to bother trying, Antonio, but I hope you'll at least consider doing it.
Meanwhile, please know that all Dylan fans are not like some of those who responded to you there.
~ Lizzy
Thanks, Kush, that's very kind from your part, you have behaved like a child and I am not going to answer your sad provocation. I confirm, with your example, that some Dylan fans are truly fundamentalists (and I'm not the only who thinks so).
Thanks Lizzy for your kindness, wich I don't deserve: the problem I have is that I am not keen in English, I simply cannot express myself in this language, I only can do it in Spanish and French. I told Dylan was an anti-artist because I have another idea of what an artist should be; it's a pity and I feel very bad for that, for I cannot discuss this items with the right words. But believe me, Lizzy, you are lovely as ever...
See you
Thanks Lizzy for your kindness, wich I don't deserve: the problem I have is that I am not keen in English, I simply cannot express myself in this language, I only can do it in Spanish and French. I told Dylan was an anti-artist because I have another idea of what an artist should be; it's a pity and I feel very bad for that, for I cannot discuss this items with the right words. But believe me, Lizzy, you are lovely as ever...
See you
Thank you very much, Antonio. I can appreciate how it must be to struggle with a language that is not native to you. I know from having visited Quebec and gone to dinner with people who spoke primarily French, and how I struggled to express anything! Verbally, always more difficult for me... yet, even in writing, I cannot imagine. I know from the couple classes I've taken how easy it is to get the wrong word, with the wrong implication.
Good intentions when crossing through different languages can quickly become lost in misinterpretations. I have no doubt that you are beautifully fluent in the languages you know well... as, overall, you do just fine with English. In this instance, it's something about which you feel passionate; so you naturally seek words of greater passion. For me, your good intentions have been made clear with this posting of yours.
Love,
Lizzy
Good intentions when crossing through different languages can quickly become lost in misinterpretations. I have no doubt that you are beautifully fluent in the languages you know well... as, overall, you do just fine with English. In this instance, it's something about which you feel passionate; so you naturally seek words of greater passion. For me, your good intentions have been made clear with this posting of yours.
Love,
Lizzy
Yes, Lizzy, I sound rude because I ignore how to express, it's hardly understable but when one can't write with nuance all sounds grotesque, brutal; I'd express properly in youtube if I could... Go on, Lizzy, you're a kind of alma matrix in this page
I forgot to thanks Tim also: yes, I know there are different kind of people and, of course, Dylan fans; the only thing was that I was very surprised when I got insulted; I never insult anybody that disagree or attack my idols, these manners are quite dissapointing, but sure most of Dylan fans are polite, you are an example of politeness
and for Mr Kush: what a poor style and bad manners you have: talk about Dylan and let outside this "barbara of something", wich has nothing to do with this point, these are the kind of arguments you use? This is only an argumentum ad hominem (you know what I'm talking about?), a very ignoble attitude, man, I didn't expect this from your clairvoyance and courtesy
Greetings
I forgot to thanks Tim also: yes, I know there are different kind of people and, of course, Dylan fans; the only thing was that I was very surprised when I got insulted; I never insult anybody that disagree or attack my idols, these manners are quite dissapointing, but sure most of Dylan fans are polite, you are an example of politeness
and for Mr Kush: what a poor style and bad manners you have: talk about Dylan and let outside this "barbara of something", wich has nothing to do with this point, these are the kind of arguments you use? This is only an argumentum ad hominem (you know what I'm talking about?), a very ignoble attitude, man, I didn't expect this from your clairvoyance and courtesy
Greetings
Last edited by Antonio on Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hi Antonio ~
You're so right that so much relies on nuance and, without that refining, it does tend to come across as brutal/grotesque. It can also come across as very charming, with some of the words and terms that non-native English speakers use. It can add so many, unexpected layers of meaning, wholly unintentionally... yet, so surprizingly appropos.
Well, Antonio... you've sent me to my dictionary. I know the term alma mater and I know the term dominatrix... but alma matrix, I don't. If I'd taken that Latin class that was offered in high school, I'd probably be able to wing it on this one, but NOooooo ~ I have to go look it up
. Be back as soon as I find it.
No luck, so far... but it seems it should be some form of alma mater.
Hmmm... another, Google try ~ Is it a group??
Are you saying I'm a group, Antonio
? I think I'm going to need your help here.
~ Lizzy
You're so right that so much relies on nuance and, without that refining, it does tend to come across as brutal/grotesque. It can also come across as very charming, with some of the words and terms that non-native English speakers use. It can add so many, unexpected layers of meaning, wholly unintentionally... yet, so surprizingly appropos.
Well, Antonio... you've sent me to my dictionary. I know the term alma mater and I know the term dominatrix... but alma matrix, I don't. If I'd taken that Latin class that was offered in high school, I'd probably be able to wing it on this one, but NOooooo ~ I have to go look it up
. Be back as soon as I find it.No luck, so far... but it seems it should be some form of alma mater.
Hmmm... another, Google try ~ Is it a group??
Amazon.ca: Alma Matrix: Music. ... Alma Matrix.
Are you saying I'm a group, Antonio
? I think I'm going to need your help here.~ Lizzy