Along the way... Discovering Leonard's albums

[B4real]

...I wonder if there are any references to "temperature" or "degrees" in Cohen's song lyrics, I can't recall any?..

Bev would know!

Ah, you guys

"It’s kind of chilly in your kitchen
It must be ten below
I bought a ticket for Townsville
I must have lost it in the snow"...

I've written ALL the different lyrics to that song here - https://www.leonardcohenforum.com/viewt ... tle+secret

[AlanM]

...He went like one that hath been stunned...

Alan -- the cold kitchen, ten below -- okay, it's a Leonard Cohen song, I didn't get the reference because, what can I say -- I hadn't heard that song for quite a while, nor enough times for the lyrics to become indelibly etched into my consciousness (and, for fear of having more Coleridge quoted at me in melodramatically mock shock, it's not exactly one of Leonard's more poetically -- or musically -- memorable songs...).

Besides, this thread is about discovering Leonard's albums, and so I've just been reminded of that collection of live songs that has obviously not yet had many spins in my CD player.

Thank you (again) Lisa. You got me laughing out loud!
Anyhow what would a thread be here if there weren't an occasional deviation?

I still don't know if "10 below" in Fahrenheit is below freezing point or below zero.

Alan

p.s. I just happened to listen to "Secret" a day prior to my question. It is not indelibly etched into my consciousness either, unlike The Rime of the Ancient Mariner.

[LisaLCFan]

...I still don't know if "10 below" in Fahrenheit is below freezing point or below zero...

Oh, I can answer that: for a person who thinks and speaks in Fahrenheit, "10 below" would refer to ten degrees below zero Fahrenheit -- the freezing point would not even enter their mind. Just imagine a mercury thermometer that only has the Fahrenheit scale on it -- that is what a Fahrenheit person would be thinking of and/or using as a reference as to whether the temperature is above or below the "0" on the thermometer (and of course, the zero would be 0 F, not 0 C, since there is no "C" and thus the Celcius scale is irrelevant). If a Fahrenheit person does happen to think about the freezing point, to them, it would be 32 (above).

Incidentally, living as I do in one of the coldest places on earth* and thus enduring very cold winters, zero Fahrenheit was often the temp at which people really began to complain about the weather, for it becomes difficult to be comfortable outside, no matter how warmly one may be dressed, and thus zero F was actually a practical reference point. Now that most of us have long-since converted to Celcius, it is nonetheless not unusual to hear people say that "minus 18" (Celcius) is the tipping point from merely cold to bloody cold, which also happens to be zero Fahrenheit.

Of course, all of this is anecdotal evidence from my experience alone, and whether or not "people from Canada" in general will have had the same experiences and/or thoughts with/about temperatures and temperature scales, I cannot possibly know.

*On December 27, 2021, a list of the 15 Coldest Places on Earth (as measured at airports in/near those places in the early morning of Dec 27) was published, and my city came in at #4, at a bone-chilling 41 below (-41 Celsius -- or 42 below for the Fahrenheit people). And, that doesn't even count wind-chill. Brrr. Happily, it is much warmer this week (it may even be "3 above" tomorrow -- above 0 C, that is).

Cheers!

[AlanM]

Again, thank you, Lisa.
Now my mind is clear and when I think of someone from Canada from now on, I shall think of you.

Also, by using Leonard's lyrics I was more or less on topic (sort of).

Alan

[its4inthemorning]

Lisa is absolutely correct. Alan, here is how F-speakers refer to cold temperatures, at least where I am:

Under 32 F = "it's below freezing."

Under 25 F = "It's in the low twenties."

Under 20 F = "It's in the teens."

Under 10 F = "It's single digits." (no "in the")

Under 0 F = "It's below zero."

Well under 0 F = "It's F-----' cold out."

Now a question for you Alan or the others. In the US we refer to to the school subject about numbers as "math," ie., "how did you do in the math test," or "I have math next period." But it seems that people in the UK, and maybe those in other English-speaking lands that have held on more tightly to the British language than the US has, use the plural, "maths." Do you know why that is? Just something that I've wondered about.

Cats are amazing creatures. We've had a nice-looking orange cat hunting on our property since the spring. We thought that he was owned by a neighbor, but his visits have become more regular, and the fact that he comes around now when it's so cold and there is snow on the ground leads us to think he is feral. (He immediately runs if he sees us, failing to realize that even a little casual friendliness would lead to a life in a warm house and endless little cans of cat food.) Anyway, I saw him yesterday and was studying him from the window. He walked here and there in the snow-covered gardens, until he stopped motionless at one spot. After about ten seconds, he pounced into the snow, and came up with a mouse or mole, which he promptly dispatched. Now, exactly how much noise can a tiny mouse make under the snow? Evidently just enough for an attentive orange cat to hear. I wonder how many successful hunts like that one are required each day to sustain a cat?

4

[AlanM]

Now a question for you Alan or the others. In the US we refer to to the school subject about numbers as "math," ie., "how did you do in the math test," or "I have math next period." But it seems that people in the UK, and maybe those in other English-speaking lands that have held on more tightly to the British language than the US has, use the plural, "maths." Do you know why that is? Just something that I've wondered about.

4

I think this falls in the category of 2 (or more) nations divided by a common language {multiple versions of this "quote" exist, with no definitive source}.

For a field centered on numbers, math seems pretty confused about its pluralization. Americans and Canadians tend to say math while Brits and Australians opt for maths. In defense of our star-spangled convention, “math” is more consistent with the way English speakers abbreviate disciplines like economics (econ) and linguistics (ling). Still, both versions are correct, if complicated by the fact that while mathematics sounds plural, it may actually be singular. https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/1 ... -noun.html

There are many differences in our common language, not just in this abbreviation, but also many spellings, pronunciation, punctuation, grammar, etc. but at least we can still understand each other most of the time. It would appear that in this case, you are correct in not using the s as part of the abbreviation.

Hope this clarifies the situation.

Alan

p.s. A feral cat needs to eat about 300 gm of prey a day, so how many successful hunts are required would depend on the size of the prey.

[LisaLCFan]

...... “math” is more consistent with the way English speakers abbreviate disciplines like economics (econ) and linguistics (ling)...

I know that you (Alan) did not write that sentence, but, who uses "econ" and "ling"? Those are not established words in common parlance. In academia, one may hear such abbreviations, usually spoken by students referring to classes or professors -- profs -- in that discipline, perhaps largely because the designation for courses/classes is abbreviated that way: for example, a course will be listed as "ECON 101" or "LING 205", and thus some students may use those abbreviations when talking about them (amongst other disciplines that students often abbreviate in their speech, usually corresponding to course name abbreviations, such a Poli Sci, Phil, Chem, Comp Lit, Soc, Psych, Mec E, etc.). However, most professionals in those disciplines (professors and lecturers), as well as the general public (all those "English speakers"), are far more likely to use the full names.

"Math", on the other hand, in Canada and America, is used far more often than "mathematics", in general, but even in academia, one hears both terms used by everyone involved.

Nonetheless -- I don't think that anybody knows for certain why some English-speaking countries favour "math" while others use "maths", other than it being an idiosyncratic use that caught on somewhere along the way, neither one being more right or wrong than the other. It could just as easily have been the other way around, as to who used what abbreviation.

While on the topic: why does British English use "sport", whereas those of us on the west side of the Atlantic use "sports"? The plural/singular issue that is often cited in the "math/maths" debate seems to have gone the other way on that one, and is probably another "who knows why, it just is."

Back to the original subject (more or less), did Leonard Cohen ever use "math" (or "mathematics") in any of his songs or poems? I don't recall, offhand.

[its4inthemorning]

I racked my brain, but came up empty regarding LC referencing "math" or "mathematics" in any song lyrics. Perhaps this could be attributable to him being "right-brain" under the right-brain left-brain theory (predisposed to arts and language) as opposed to "left-brain" (predisposed to mathematics, logic, and facts). Of course another explanation would be that the chances of fitting "math" or "mathematics" into song lyrics seem slim.

After trying to recollect song lyrics further, I can only come up with two references to anything remotely connected with mathematics: "You can add up the parts, but you won't get the sum," and "I see the ghost of culture with numbers on his wrist."

We haven't heard from master archivist B4 yet, though.

4

[B4real]

4 wrote: We haven't heard from master archivist B4 yet, though.

I've been unfortunately occupied with other things I'd rather not be but I'm here now.

Lisa wrote: Back to the original subject (more or less), did Leonard Cohen ever use "math" (or "mathematics") in any of his songs or poems? I don't recall, offhand.

I was simply going to say LC never used either of those words in any song or poem of his and leave it at that .... but once again, his words sucked (enticed) me in

The lines below are the closest he comes to saying/doing math(s) in any of his songs. I may have gone overboard by including some. I'm a bit distracted at the moment and because maths is not my best subject, some lines may be in conflicting categories, ha!

To keep it all on a numerical theme, I’ve listed them as 1, 2, 3.

1. Firstly, there’s from below zero to basic addition and subtraction –

It must be 10 below / It’s kind of chilly in your kitchen / It must be 10 below ~ I’ve Got A Little Secret
(couldn't resist including this one)
And since no counting had begun ~ Half The Perfect World
Tho' your promise count for nothing ~ The Captain
But that don't count, that don't count, that don’t count / That don't count, that don’t count for nothing much at all ~ Never Any Good
There was no one at all ~ Seems So Long Ago Nancy
The name has no number not even the one ~ It’s Torn
There's no one going to Heaven / and there's no one left in Hell ~ Roshi’s Very Tired
It’s time for the counting ~ Time For Counting
I am the one who loves changing from nothing to one ~ You Know Who I Am
I guess he thinks that he's the very first one ~ Sing Another Song Boys
If you and I are one ~ True Love Leaves No Traces
But should one refuse to come / No, it does not subtract the sum ~ Storeroom (alt)
You can add up the parts / You won't have the sum ~ Anthem
Add up the parts, not yours the sum ~ The Bells
I was counted with the dead ~ You Have Loved Enough
I've counted what I have ~ I've Counted What I Have
And every word counts against me anyhow ~ Still Into That
It counts against me anyhow ~ You Came To Me
They don't count now ~ It Just Feels
You’re not the only one, not the only one ~ The Butcher (alt)
Though it all may be one in the higher eye / Down here where we live it is two ~ Different Sides
Give or take a night or two / When you've done a line or two ~ Everybody Knows
There’s nothing but a scratch or two ~ A Thousand Kisses Deep (alt)
To a promise or two ~ Blessed Is The Memory
One more heart / One more town ~ Angel Eyes
Now there's still one or two of us ~ Tonight Will Be Fine (alt)
It's very rare but we've had one or two ~ Wishing Window
One mean guitar / With one or two ~ Travelling Light
One hand on my suicide, one hand on the rose ~ Stories Of The Street
One eye filled with blueprints, one eye filled with night ~ Stories Of The Street
One hand on the hexagram and one hand on the girl ~ Stories Of The Street
One two three, one two three one ~ Thanks For The Dance
Whose days but number three ~ Listen To The Hummingbird
There were three of us this morning / I'm the only one this evening ~ The Partisan
There were four of us this morning / I'm the only one this evening ~ The Partisan (alt)
And that's not counting countless times we spent ~ Wishing Window
It counts against me anyhow~ A Thousand Kisses Deep (alt)
But you're my first love and my last / There is no one, no one after you ~ No One After You
We were first, we were last ~ Thanks For The Dance

2. Secondly, more complicated multiplication and division –

Multiplied in the double mirrors ~ G-d Opened My Eyes
Must be my double ~ I Can’t Forget
Where I tried to double-park ~ Happens To The Heart
One by one, the guests arrive / One by one, the guests are cast / One by one, they enter there ~ The Guests
One by one she had to tell them ~ Joan Of Arc
Two by twos they wear your shoes ~ Clap! Clap! (Mirror Song)
We lived a thousand years in one ~ Half The Perfect World
The whole damn place goes crazy twice ~ Closing Time
But once or twice, they let me play ~ A Thousand Kisses Deep
One world must come out of World War Two ~ Passing Through
The judges said you missed it by a fraction ~ The Traitor
The light and the darkness divide ~ BOTAM
An undivided love ~ Come Healing
We can separate but not divide ~ Democracy (alt)
And they turn as one ~ BOTAM
You can't divide ~ Nevermind

3. And thirdly, some general talk of numbers –
(too many individual number ones to list)

With numbers on his wrist ~ A Street
Except the one that seems to be written on your wrist ~ Dress Rehearsal Rag
His muscles they were numbered ~ DOALM
He was just a numberless man in a chair ~ Master Song
That I keep their names and numbers on ~ Billy Sunday
I've looked into the mirrors in numberless places ~ Tonight Will Be Fine (alt)
Probably somewhere two inches within my throat ~ News From The Authorities
Let us be two severe giants ~ Queen Victoria
Just two people, anyone can see ~ Sing Another Song Boys (alt)
Like a two-bit whore ~ Storeroom (alt)
Uncovering the two of us ~ Half The Perfect World
With his third invention / He commences/He's lost to the fourth / He's lost to the third ~ The Third Invention
Four o'clock in the afternoon ~ Dress Rehearsal Rag
It's four in the morning ~ Famous Blue Raincoat
Four o'clock and the fog comes in ~ The Golden Gate
The fourth, the fifth ~ Hallelujah
Well, it’s five in the morning ~ Blessed Is The Memory
I who rule the seven seas ~ Avalanche (alt)
Against the side of Seven ~ The Captain
I was nine years old ~ Story Of Isaac
No matter if its nine to five ~ A Thousand Kisses Deep (alt)
Now in Vienna there's ten pretty women ~ Take This Waltz
So save me a place in the three /ten /twelve/ twenty/ thirty/ forty/ sixty/ dollar grave ~ A Singer Must Die
I stayed seventeen ~ Is This What You Wanted
Her body’s twenty storeys high ~ Blue Alert
They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom ~ First We Take Manhattan
And twenty-seven angels from the Great Beyond ~ Tower Of Song
I'm Forty-One, the moon is full ~ Do I Have To Dance All Night
A forty-five beside her head ~ Seems So Long Nancy
Back in nineteen sixty one / in nineteen sixty one ~ Seems So Long Nancy
That was the winter of sixty-seven ~ Chelsea Hotel #1
I journey down one hundred steps / I travel down a hundred and thirty steps ~ Love Calls You By Your Name (alts)
I closed the book on us, at least a hundred times ~ I Tried To Leave You
He trained a hundred/a million women just to kill an unborn ~ Diamonds In The Mine (alt)
A hundred thousand fingerprints ~ Fingerprints
A hundred floors above me ~ Tower Of Song
She's a hundred but she's wearing something tight ~ Closing Time
There's a lobby with nine hundred windows ~ Take This Waltz
Like clocks wound for a thousand years ~ For E.J.P. (2021 official cover song of LC's poem)
A Thousand Kisses Deep ~ A Thousand Kisses Deep
A Thousand Kisses Deep ~ You Came To Me
Where your mouth had a thousand reviews ~ Take This Waltz
A thousand years ago, a small deceit ~ Song Of Destruction
And twenty thousand angels from the Great Beyond ~ Tower Of Song (alt)
To metamorphosize at least a hundred / Thousand times through all the dreary realms ~ Wishing Window
It’s good to be here alone in front of six hundred thousand people ~ It’s Good To Be Here Alone (IOW intro)
A million candles burning ~ You Want It Darker
Nothing's happened in a million years ~ Jazz Police
The corpses of a million babies / a million rusty cans / trained a million/hundred women ~ Diamonds In The Mine (alt)
For the millions in a prison ~ Land Of Plenty
Whose symbols are the millions slain ~ Villanelle For Our Time
There’s going to be ten million of us standing – Please Don’t Pass Me By (alt)
This will reverse the effects of the world's mad plunge into suffering, for the last 200 million years ~ The Great Event

Thought I’d add the last one because we can fix the current state of the world by doing what the song says and play the Moonlight Sonata backwards. Ah, if it was only that simple! Even so, Leonard’s words are still healing

[LisaLCFan]

Wow, Bev, that's an amazing list! Thanks for the trouble you took -- it was great to be reminded of so many songs that I've not heard for a bit, due to my very selective listening habits. And, unlike Alan's reference to "...10 below...", which I totally failed to recognise, most of the ones on your list brought to mind the songs themselves and Leonard's voice singing them -- it was kind of like listening to snippets of song samples on CD-selling websites that only play 20 or 30 seconds of each track! Fun stuff!

[its4inthemorning]

Thought I’d add the last one because we can fix the current state of the world by doing what the song says and play the Moonlight Sonata backwards. Ah, if it was only that simple! Even so, Leonard’s words are still healing

We may have listened to this before, but...

https://youtu.be/rIHFLrjzgbA

I have to say that I find this somewhat pleasing to listen to, especially given its source, Despite a bit of clunkiness, such as at around 1:45 and 3:00, IMO it is still superior to most current music.

Thanks for your lists Bev. Agree totally with Lisa, they brought back a host of memories of great songs that I happened to have temporarily forgotten about.

4

[B4real]

My pleasure, Lisa and 4!
As I said at the start of the year, I was going to fill it with both fun and Leonard.
It’s good to be able to continue to do that!
Yes, I have heard Moonlight Sonata being played backward before. I listened once again to it now from 4's link in the hope it just might help things along a bit to “reverse the effects of the world's mad plunge into suffering”.
As a back-up, I might try playing an LC song backward .... I wonder which song I’ll choose .... Come Healing instantly comes to mind

btw - I've just added 6 more lines to the above "numerical" list

[LisaLCFan]

...btw - I've just added 6 more lines to the above "numerical" list

Is there a prize if we can identify them?

(I actually tried, but I couldn't narrow it down to six!)

[its4inthemorning]

Bev, is there a simple way to play a song backwards? (Please tell me "no," or you've condemned me to wasting a lot of time doing so.)

4

[B4real]

He he! Lisa, The prize is discovering Leonard from another angle ... so by reading the list you are all winners!
But LC sees all the angles, after all, he did say "I see every single angle ~ Way Down Deep".
..... btw - there are a lot of lines not yet posted that mention "single" in them, hummm....
I wasn’t going to include the song titles so you could all have a go at guessing them but that would have been too hard in some cases

And just to keep you all on your toes, besides those 6 lines, I’ve just now added an additional 12 lines too
I’m stopping now.... I am, but if anyone wishes to find and post other “numerically” related lines here, please feel free to do so.

Yes 4, There are a few ways to play music backward. You can physically play the music in reverse as done in your linked video. I was thinking of doing it that way on my keyboard. Or you can use an audio editing programme. If you have Audacity, load the song, highlight it, click on ‘effects’, select ‘reverse’, press 'play' and 'Bob's your uncle'
Or maybe you could use an instant online site. You could also do it with iTunes but it's more complicated. Have fun!