leonardcohenforum.com

So many choices to respond to!!
But I will start with this...

its4inthemorning wrote: Since B4 raised the point, how is this for a topic: if you could have one Cohen song played at your memorial service, which one would it be and why?

In many ways, this is even more difficult than responding to the question "What is your favorite Leonard Cohen song?"

Even after just a very quick perusal of the songs being hastily thrown into the mix in my brain, I can come up with at least 5. So without thinking about it further, I am going to go with "Avalanche" ....(for now).

My reasons? First off, I like to read epitaphs on tombstones. My favorite ever was this one, which was in a cemetery on a hill in a seaside town above Boston. The stone was one of those thin round top ones with a skull on it, lying crooked in the ground:

"Think of me as you pass by,
for as you are, so once was I
As I am, so you shall be.
Prepare for death and follow me."

I know I could Google where it came from and the exact wording, but I am doing it from memory, so please forgive me. I may have even brought it up before and it's possible that B4 can tell me when it was if I did. But let's save everyone the chore of looking it up, because it doesn't really matter, Lol.

The reason I liked that epitaph is because it reminded me of words I have read by stoics like Marcus Aurelius, where they say to keep death in your vision and at your shoulder, because it will remind you to treasure what you have while you are here and help you to keep things in perspective, as well as make you unafraid to truly live your life. What have you got to lose?
There is something about the tone and the message of Avalanche (in my mind) that reminds me of that tombstone.

As for other comments on this thread lately, I am so happy to see them! I especially love the talk about 'philosophia'..φιλοσοφία. I am trying to learn about Greek history, as well as Roman history, and in fact, I have been using my quarantine time to try and learn the Greek language. (Modern Greek not ancient Greek) If anyone here knows Greek, I would love to hear from you. You can private message me or whatever. It is not a very easy language! I have learned the alphabet and am learning words and phrases on an app called Duolingo. I am at the 'gold level' which sounds actually still a beginner.

Jean, it's so funny that anyone would think that you would make anything up.

Vickie

its4inthemorning wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:06 pm Since B4 raised the point, how is this for a topic: if you could have one Cohen song played at your memorial service, which one would it be and why?

4

I am reminded of Bob Hope's reply to his wife when she asked him where his burial plot should be.
"Surprise me!"

If I am 2nd to go, I plan to use "Hey, That's No Way To Say Goodbye" for my wife. I don't think any more explanation is required.

Alan

Alan,
That is perfect!
V

Well Vickie, our teachers are equines.
This rather special kind of discipline is not easily understood from the outside.

●

LisaLCFan wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:12 am how would you translate "philosophy"

How would I translate one single word with no context! (Not even as much as specifying the source language.)
How would you translate the word "spring" without any context?
As a flexible steel device? As a place where water runs out of the ground? As the season following winter? As the act of jumping?

(I had a few words about translating in this thread:
https://leonardcohenforum.com/viewtopic ... 16&t=38430
As for the mental discipline at work during translating, the best comparison I am able to suggest is something like a one-armed bandit inside the translator's mind:
You pull the lever, watch the combinations that appear, note the "maybe" ones, and then pull the lever again and again until with some luck you might eventually find a "maybe" combination that is less inadequate than the others.
Second step: you stop pulling that lever and start working.
And so on.)

There are not only classic Greek and Greek as lingua franca, but also medieval Greek and modern Greek, and there are modern English and western thought — which makes it so many problems (more, actually, because of their internal difficulties each, but never mind).

And along with the passing of time, the world-pictures people (and linguistic communities) have changed quite a lot over the last 2500 years.
You mention two aspects of classic Greek philosophy: logic and ardent desire for truth.
There used to be a third major aspect, though: the homosexual procreation of the mind, complemented by the heterosexual procreation of the body. In our present-day philosophy business, this third aspect is officially non-existent, and any clandestine residues will be rather more hetero than homo.
As for the "ardent desire" in the term "philos - lover", over time mystics and ascetics have gone much further, and they have deeply influenced the collective mind. Also, any philosopher's plunge into dukkha would be tempered by the knowledge (explicit or intuitive) about things like the Munchhausen trilemma.

The term "dukkha" or "duhkha" means an unpleasant subjective experience of the difference between the world as it is and the world as it should be, taking into account Karl Paul Reinhold Niebuhr's famous Serenity Prayer
(I'm quoting from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhold_ ... ity_Prayer):
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

Today, the term "philosophy" can mean quite a number of things, like mental constructs or personal characteristics ("Plato's philosophy").
Millenaries of wear and tear have taken so much toll that for our modern conception some "liking of/for truth" should be amply sufficient. The professionals would be ill advised hoping to awaken much more in their pupils and students. And in most cases, this "liking" would be just a poor disincarnate ghost haunting the empty corridors of schools and universities and smelling of chalk dust. A "Platonic idea", if I may say so. That's why the technical term "philosophy" is used. Avoids too much thinking.

Not that Plato should be taken at face value either. In his famous Meno dialog, he has Socrates introduce the idea of a diagonal bisecting a square (in two equal parts) into a slave boy's mind, and then "extract" it from him, pretending that it pre-existed.
Here the Meno dialog; the boy appears roughly in the middle of the text:
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/meno.html
And here's the scene with the boy, enacted by three adults:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqDoLdmcyZo
Socrates asks the boy: "And does not this line, reaching from corner to corner, bisect each of these spaces?" The boy answers "Yes", but he does not know whether the two parts are of equal size, neither from intimate conviction (nor "true opinion"), nor from conclusive proof. Socrates simply injects that idea into the boy's mind and hopes to get away with his trick.

In the mythology of zen transmission, such cheating is sometimes used as a sign that the teacher is abdicating — perhaps most famously in the "Wild fox" koan (case number 2 of the Mumonkan).
(Hyakujo is the one who established the zen rules ("A day without work is a day without food"); Obaku saw zen buddhism through the Great Anti-Buddhist Persecution of 845-846).
Here the text as reported by Mumon, in Katsuki Sekida's translation, and with a few personal comments by the blogger:
https://faithlesszen.blogspot.com/2014/ ... s-fox.html
(Hyakujo invents the story of his own alter ego, and Obaku sees through the fake but deftly confirms it. Thereupon Hyakujo confirms the transmission by stating that Obaku is Bodhidharma himself, and not some Frankenstein assembly of dead Bodhidharma parts.)

But for the point in question — that is, putting "Hallelujah" in a nutshell (without establishing whether such a thing is possible at all) —, the distinction between consenting serious efforts and parroting mental crap should be clear enough.

●

Alan, I agree that it's the living who should take care of the dead.

My wife immolated herself by fire, and for her cremation ceremony I used "Joan of Arc". Most of the people present didn't speak any English, and only one or two of them had ever heard of Leonard Cohen. So I had a bit of a job to get the phrasing right.
Some time later, for a small remembrance gathering, I used "Alexandra Leaving".
For my own funeral, even in case I shouldn't make it to full extinction, I trust I won't send any egos to sit on the fence and watch.
May the living proceed in peace!

Jean Fournell wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:07 pm ...

LisaLCFan wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:12 am how would you translate "philosophy"

How would I translate one single word with no context! (Not even as much as specifying the source language.)... [and ... and ... and ... and ... ]

I merely asked because you were quite willing to provide an English translation for "philosopher", in the context of Classical Western Philosophy (you mentioned Pythagoras, Socrates, and Plato), which was at odds with how the word is usually translated/broken-down in English-speaking Classical Western Philosophical circles. My question, therefore, was related to that same context (i.e., Classical Western Philosophy and English), which I thought was very clear (and perhaps it was, but it seems to have given you an excuse to provide me with a long-winded lecture, nonetheless).

Whatever the case, I'm tired of this and you, and so I shall let everyone get back to the regularly scheduled programming in this thread. Goodbye!

Goodness! Always so entertaining!
Luckily, Jean's lectures are always educational and entertaining as well, but in a more lasting way

As we simmer back down here...

I agree that the living should take care of the dead, and I suppose it is solely our egos that enjoy picking out our funeral songs. Still, there is pleasure in it, like in all of the day dreaming we do for things that may not ever come to be. Whether they actually come true or not isn't always the point.

I love the choices you made for your wife's remembrance gatherings Jean. I think if I go first, Dave will pick the songs that keep me closest to him as well.

Vickie

Perfect choices Alan and Jean!
Vickie, Avalanche is definitely different! And that burial inscription is in graveyards in Australia too!
Lisa, If you want to, you are welcome to indulge your choices as well too.

its4inthemorning wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:06 pm I had pretty much given up looking to see if there were any new posts here, you guys surprised me.

.... Since B4 raised the point, how is this for a topic: if you could have one Cohen song played at your memorial service, which one would it be and why?

4

See 4, remember I did say that this thread will never be over

.... And maybe you would like to answer your own question about which song you would choose and why

B4real wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:29 pm

.... And maybe you would like to answer your own question about which song you would choose and why
[/quote]

I'm thinking about it! it was a much easier question to ask than to answer. I hadn't considered the idea that choosing a song to be played at my memorial service would be ego-driven, although that could come into play. I was thinking more of trying to find a song emblematic of what I believed in, or failing that, one that I felt everyone in the audience (small as it might be) should listen to at least once.

This will be slow-going, so far all I have done is eliminate the songs from "Death of a Ladies' Man."

4

B4real wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:29 pm ... Lisa, If you want to, you are welcome to indulge your choices as well too...

Hi Bev! Thanks for the invitation, nice of you to ask! However, I cannot answer this question simply because I do not wish for there to be a "memorial service" or a "funeral" or any such formal event upon my departure from this earthly realm, thus I have no intention of organising one, with or without music. If the fewer who don't even care what I do should wish to get together for a drink, or whatever, that'll be entirely up to them. (At this point in my life, I don't even know who they may be!).

Dave brought up the point that virtually nobody passes without notice.... although it may only come from the public health personnel who are tasked with the internment of the body in some fashion. Even their indifference is a choice that requires some awareness of that individual.

I guess Dave's point is a way of holding a little candle out to honor the ego of everyone. Sometimes, our ego is all that we have... depending on the person, and having that ego is not always a bad thing. In my mind, although it can be a crutch, it can also be a tool.

Anyway... my point is that even though selecting a funeral song may be portrayed as stroking your ego, honoring our ego isn't always bad.... but my idea of what an ego is may be way different than others. If there was ever a point where Leonard and I might not see eye to eye... it might be there I think.

And also, though some might say they will pass out if this world without notice... that is impossible. All lives are connected to other lives in some way and even the tiniest movement of theirs ripples out.

Vickie

I am not sure if Vickie's comments are a direct result of what I wrote, or if they are totally unrelated, but if the former, I was not insinuating any of the things that she mentioned.

My disinterest in having any sort of formal "service" for my own demise is simply a personal preference (for reasons of my own), and in no way reflects my view about what others choose to do. We each must follow our own paths and do what we feel is best, for ourselves, for others, and/or for whatever our reasoning may be, in life and in death, and I do not judge others in any way for whatever their chosen paths may be.

As for "egos", I never use the word "ego" -- I have no idea what it means to those who use it, and perhaps it means different things to different people, but I've always found the word to be rather distasteful, and thus I avoid it, and I quietly (and sometimes not so quietly!) cringe whenever other people use it. But of course, if it makes others happy to use the word, hey, knock yourselves out!

This will be slow-going, so far all I have done is eliminate the songs from "Death of a Ladies' Man."

I can't see why.
Surely True Love Leaves No Traces would be perfect for you?

Alan

OK, I came up with two memorial service songs, which one will depend on how I am feeling at the time.

Stories of the Street - This is just such an interesting song, and I love the music. It makes you think about so many aspects of life and the world, each listener creating his own mental images. The first two verses reference war, the fear of which was and is very relevant to our generation (Korean Ward-cold war-Cuban missile crisis-Vietnam War-mideast wars). Then come my favorite verses (favourite, Alan), the infant hauled in like a kite with eyes filled with blueprints/night; the farm with grass, apples and the lamb; and balancing on the wishing well, so small between the stars and so large against the sky. Whoever wrote these verses was a genius!

You Got Me Singing - A great tune, and hard to miss the message--despite all the bad shit, life is/was well worth living.

If I ever request these songs in written instructions I will have to be careful about ever taking my own life, as the "one hand on my suicide" lyric in Stories of the Street will prove awkward.

4

4, I laughed so much with your words on DOALM!
An interesting choice of Stories Of The Street and I love You Got Me Singing.
I know you have put some thought into this

Vickie, I hope you are safe in Oregon from those terrible fires!!

4,
You sounded so reluctant to come up with your choices, haha! Aren't we all? Doing so confirms we are actually leaving here after all!
I am not surprised by your choices though. They suit you well. But if I were to attend, I would add FBR and Steer Your Way....but nobody asked what we think should be played at each other's funerals.
I love how you said Stories of the Street could be awkward regarding that one very 'Leonard' line. I trust you will save us from that awkward event. It reminds me of the time you assured me that Leonard fans were actually fun to be around and not depressing at all. As usual, you were right.

B4...
Thank you.... yes, we are safe from the fires but not from the smoke.
Regardless of your politics regarding climate change...the earth will always be here after all... but wouldn't it be nice if humans could always be here too? Somebody has to keep listening to Leonard, don't you think?

Love,
Vickie