Irving Layton

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tomsakic
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Post by tomsakic »

PhilMader wrote:And the inescapable lousiness of growing old.
Phi, this is the poem Leonard often quoted, particularly this line (I presume it was his favourite Layton's line). I was thinking to retype this poem; Im' glad to see it here :) Actually, my selected poems don't have The Graveyard, the poem Cohen recited on the funeral last Sunday. I'd like to read it and to see it posted here.
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Post by Young dr. Freud »

Lizzy,

About the "nauseous" Stephen Marche. Last year he published a novel with a lot of of sex in it and to make it all seem so deep threw in some religious nattering of the having our cake and eating it too variety...you know, the way Leonard does. The critics loved it (as they always do when a novelist conflates the profane with the sacred) So they crowned him the literary succesor to Leonard. No kidding.

YdF
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Post by lizzytysh »

This appears to shed light on the sense of 'jealousy'/vindictiveness that I had, without any facts to support it, as I've never heard of Marche and ~ as I noted ~ did not have any desire to pursue any links to anything else he's ever written. Thanks for that information, YdF. It fits.

It would seem that Marche may have delusions of grandeur, wherein he has pie-in-the-sky hopes of supplanting Irving in the world of Canadian literature. The beginning for this would be to do all he can to invalidate Irving's role and position there, attacking him as a human being and as a writer. As for his being Leonard's successor, from what I've seen of him [too much], he would never be more than a cheap imitation, at best. His lack of humanity and class drip like blood all over the page. Shame on the critics for being so easily swayed.

~ Lizzy
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Post by lizzytysh »

Dear Joe ~

As always, your beautiful words can only be enjoyed. Your "Layton's folly's" posting was still another. Thank you for taking the time and speaking as you have, with wisdom and insight. Your observations are so sadly true, in the way I know you mean them ~ on "life was too short," with regard to your own father's early death ~ I am so sorry that you have missed all those additional years with him, and that I was so fortunate to have with mine ~ and on "life was too long," given the sad conditions that Alzheimer's Disease force onto a person's being, with Irving.

As a woman, "especially from the back" has always conjured for me the downward curve that descends from the torso into the waist and then softly back out to the hips, and includes the curving in at the spine, for the length of that. Hearing it always creates an image of how men must view their beloved women with admiration, at times the women are totally unaware of the vision their men have of them and their appreciation. It's such a genuine expression of that. Gazing at a woman, looking into her eyes, or at her face, can sometimes be done for manipulative reasons. However, this image is totally absent that potential. It's a passive appreciation, in that regard and, in that, all the more powerful. At least that's how I, as a woman, have always felt and perceived that wonderful, four-word phrase.

Those lines of Layton's regarding Aviva in Paris really do elevate the "sacred imagery of the human form," as you've said, as do Leonard's above. The form as form itself. Leonard obviously was tuned into and receptive of it from the days of the arches of Elvira; but, it's clear that Irving assisted Leonard in honing his skills in expressing those sensibilities. All of us are the benefactors of that exercise. The more I read of Layton and the things he's written, the more I want to read of him.


Dear Tom ~

I have made a cursory look at the Internet for the full text of "The Graveyard," and find references to it, and the ISBN for it, but nowhere the poem itself. Someone, more computer adept than I ~ and that won't take much :roll: ~ will probably find it and bring it here for you. Anne is great with navigating and locating links, and Tchocolatl is also good... so, perhaps, it'll appear. From the sounds of it, Phil may also come up with it. "Slowly I Married Her" ~ another splendid poem of Leonard's that we talked about here.

You know how we are on getting these exchanges accomplished :wink: ~ however, if you'll let me know whether you have PAL or that other one, whose letters I always mix up, or the capability for viewing both, at will, I'll bring you a copy of what I have with Layton in it, to Berlin.

I have the strong sense that Leonard is deeply challenged ~ perhaps, even moreso than we are with him, for a broad range of reasons ~ to select a favourite line by Layton. It may just be that he has greater, 'public' opportunity to reference Irving's line about growing old :wink: .
He was pure energy.
So true.

It's good to see you here, Tom.


Dear Phil ~

Knowing now the additional and even deeper significance of your poem makes it all the more moving. For some reason, Leonard's haiku about the crickets... the silence... and the deeper silence... when the crickets hesitate... comes to my mind regarding how we want so much, sometimes, to say things, but hesitate at those moments, and plunge the expression, of what we want so much to say, into deeper silence because we hesitated... and then we carry on, instead.

I also hope that, if you already haven't, that you, Kevin, are sharing ~ or will find a way to share ~ your feelings about your father, with him, while he is still alive. It can be so awkward, if there's that tension, for whatever reason, in a family relationship; but in the end, so worth breaking through it. It's amazing how strong those barriers can become, even self-perpetuating after awhile. I don't get the sense that that's there between you and him, so hopefully, he already knows your feelings and appreciation for him.

"Do It Now" and "Say It Now" are poems I read regularly, as a child, from a thick collection of varied ones. They were, perhaps, 10 verses long each, but the message they carry is self-evident from their titles. It's so difficult to be faced with the reality that you never said what you wanted, and now cannot. Still ~ there remain ways for resolve. Especially, because I believe in the afterlife and the spirit world, and that our loved ones are aware of the things we are doing and saying after their deaths, I feel that writing a poem, such as the loving tribute that you have for your father, can comfort you with the peace and resolve that you need. I genuinely hope so, Phil.


That poem Irving wrote about his mother is beautiful. Such a deep appreciation for who she was, even as death was claiming her in every way. [I read it through here some time ago, but can't remember in what context. For some reason, I associate it with Judith Fitzgerald, so may have read it on her site; or, it may have been presented as a part of another discussion here. I'm just not sure, not that it matters; it's just me wanting to know for sure.] What an incredibly strong tribute to his mother. I can picture her so easily with those amber beads, railing against G~d... and then, later, lying still on her deathbed. Thank you for bringing it here. May someone one day write an equally powerful tribute for Irving.
From the Canadian Jewish News, Jan. 11


Family friend and occasional visitor Rikee

Madoff said that the day before he died,

Layton “looked good, his face smooth and

calm.” He sat beside the piano as she

played old Yiddish songs for him.
posted by Tara Gowland at 1/11/2006

09:01:00 PM 0 comments
Thank you for posting this... this is the kind of thing people want to know and hear when a loved one dies. Such a beautiful vision, as though he was carried out in peace, by the treasured songs of his youth. Such a comfort. His mind may have been gone, but his heart wasn't... and those songs touched his heart.


Love,
Elizabeth
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Dear Geoffrey ~

This is in response to your posting about our trying our hand[s] at writing Leonard's obituary. I wanted to respond at the time, but just really didn't know how to, but now have had time to corral my thoughts, and don't want to just let your posting sit there without response. When I read it, a part of me thought, "That would be interesting. Not fun, but interesting... just to see all the things people would say."

The stronger part of me, however, thought, "That time is going to come soon enough. When it does, it is likely that words will simply fail me. At least for awhile and, perhaps, for some time. I really don't want to put myself in that 'space,' however, before the forces of life and death force me there."

As you know, I believe in the spiritual realms and the power of thought and energies, expressed or unexpressed. The subconscious has no 'sense of humour' and takes in, as real and true, things that are stated in the way they are stated, jokingly or not, and acts upon it. In that same sense, I believe in the powers of prayer and intention. There is something that makes me deeply uncomfortable with the idea of thinking, with the kind of depth and intent necessary for speculating on that scenario, enough to write about it, in 'final form'. The thought of putting that kind of concentrated, collective energy, in that direction, out into the universe is one that leaves me feeling ill at ease.

Our words and the words of others will come too soon, no matter when that may be. I know that some people write their own obituary and, who knows, perhaps, Leonard will entertain that notion at some point. For now and many years to come, however, I'd rather write of Leonard as a strong, vital, living being, and speak of his vitality and vibrant health continuing for many years. That's the kind of energy I prefer to release into the universe regarding Leonard.

Love,
Elizabeth
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Post by PhilMader »

thanks Tom for sharing your remembrances...and for the clarification re: the lines of poetry.

- Phil
p.s. sorry for my confusion in referring to you as Joe Way. :)
Yiddish proverb: Life is a joke
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Post by PhilMader »

re: Stephen Marche's novel, it may have got good reviews here in Canada, but the Village Voice literary critic dismissed it.

http://www.villagevoice.com/vls/0520,vls2,64036,21.html

Tabbouleh and Melancholy
Stephen Marche's Raymond and Hannah

by Rachel Aviv
May 17th, 2005 12:53 PM

Raymond and Hannah
By Stephen Marche
Harvest, 209 pp.
$14
Buy this book

VLS · Spring 2005

In Stephen Marche's debut novel, Raymond and Hannah, falling in love is a polished routine, comprised of a series of requisite moments. The titular couple meets, undresses, giggles, slips in some baby talk, and before long lets loose the "I love you"—all in one week. Sex is so good ("Scream, scream. Scream") that it requires scholarly explanations and tips like "cunnilingus should be added to the repertoire" and "attention to detail [is] key."
The affair is glib and systematic, propelled by Raymond's hyper-academic understanding of romance. A Ph.D. student at the University of Toronto, he studies Robert Burton's Anatomy of Melancholy, a sprawling 17th-century treatise on love and its "symptoms," "cause," and "cure." Raymond holds his relationship to purely literary standards as he sits for days in his library cubicle, writing about "irrelevant subjects for irrelevant readers. Blah." A fine student, he dutifully fulfills Burton's definition of proper passion—"always good, amiable, fair, gracious, and pleasant."

First novels about young, giddy couples, like Roth's Goodbye, Columbus or Amis's The Rachel Papers, tend to flaunt their neurotic details—pimples, misfired jokes, spaz attacks—but Marche's love story is so aware it's a love story that cavalier notes on the sides of each page prod the process along. "A scene." "Another scene." "In the dark, in the garden." "Conversation over pita, hummus, tabbouleh and fried tomato." With gaping margins, the book eases forward in one fluid rush. Hannah and Raymond have no family, few friends, and a limitless capacity for reading and being awesome in bed.

When Hannah moves to Jerusalem so she can study the Torah and "grow Jewishly," Raymond comfortably conducts the affair from a library research computer, applying his honed skills for rehashing old material and sending e-mails with subject headings like "re: re: re: re: Funny experience." Filled with excess verbiage, their relationship, a "memory with Internet words mixed in," narrows into an extended conversation about what they are studying (the Torah and Burton both prove equally hypocritical and life defining). They argue over their self-proclaimed "holy" texts, trying to find—with typical academic flair—some sort of hemi-demi-semi-reconciliation."
Yiddish proverb: Life is a joke
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Hi Phil ~

Thank you for this more fitting review of Marche's dross. From the writing I've read of his, this is definitely more what I would expect.

His "scholarly explanations and tips" appear to be what the reviewer might consider some of his "misfired" 'humour'. Rachel also accurately perceived the "glib" and "cavalier" nature of the writer, even though she observed it through the characters and his writing style. I'd put this review up against any other for accuracy.

Thank you for posting it.

~ Elizabeth
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Joe Way
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Post by Joe Way »

Hi Phil,
The poem was opposite the title page in an anthology of Layton's Love poems, I don't have it here in front of me, but I'll check tonight to see if it is included along with a title in the body of work.

Hi Tom,

You and I often think alike when it comes to Cohen related material. :D And I think that your list of influences that Layton had for Cohen is excellent. I think back to "Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr. Leonard Cohen" and the panel scene where the moderator is challenging Cohen and Layton passionately defends him. That whole film is so interesting to me and brings back such vivid memories of another time. The students could have been my older brother and sister and their friends. Remember that those were extremely conservative times-look at how even Elvis was looked upon as some type of dangerous, subversive sexual presence-the camera would not show his swiveling hips. Encountering Layton with his passionate sexual poetry must have been such a liberating experience for Leonard and opened him to a type of language in verse that was very uncommon for the times.

One other issue that I've been thinking about is how Leonard seems to make a distinction and places Layton in the category of friend rather than teacher. He's made this point often when speaking about Layton and considering their age difference and the amount of work that Layton had already produced prior to meeting Leonard, I think this is significant. I'm not quite sure why, but I believe it puts him in an even higher category than Klein or Scott in Leonard's development. I'll be interested to learn your thoughts about this.

One other notable item, I've meant to ask about this for years. My copy of "Recent Songs," and I have it both in vinyl and cd, contains no booklet. I don't know why, but I certainly believe that the U. S. issued releases didn't have it. I've always loved that part of the Rasky film also with them listening to "The Window" along with Suzanne.

I don't have the other recording that you mention, but if you ever get your hands on it, I would love a copy-I'll do the same for you.

Dear Lizzy,

As always thank you for your kind words. And your description of the female form from behind is certainly the classical image that I'm sure Leonard was trying to evoke. Discovering Leonard and the sexual nature of much of his work, probably had a similar effect on me as Layton did for him. It was the joining of art and sex, serious and more joyful than that depicted in popular culture and outside of a world where most of my friends traveled. I have only two books by Layton, but I love them both.

Joe
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Encountering Layton with his passionate sexual poetry must have been such a liberating experience for Leonard and opened him to a type of language in verse that was very uncommon for the times.
So well said, Joe. Being from those times, I know that Layton's poetry had to shock, shock, and shock again... and Leonard's Beautiful Losers, written so relatively long ago, shocks some readers even now ~ and look how much times have changed. Ohhhhhh ~ how I wish I'd majored in Poetry & Literature. So many times I've wished.

Ha ~ My pleasure of course; yet same-same ~ warranted = words, words = warranted [if you understand my way of saying that :wink: ~ if not, I'll rephrase].


~ Lizzy :D
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Joe Way
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Post by Joe Way »

Hi Phil,

The poem does not have a title included in my edition which is "The Love Poems of Irving Layton-With Reverence and Delight." It was published in 1984 by Mosaic Press. I bought it at a used bookstore. The other volume that I have is "Fornalutx" which I received from my friend, Vern, in Sault Ste. Marie.

Tom, neither has "The Graveyard" so I'm hoping that someone else will post it.

Here's one, though-

"On the death of Pope Paul VI"

An animal dies
and rots back into the earth

Vanquished crustaceans
are washed up by the tide

A swordfish is hooked
and turned into feces and gas

But a pope greets Monsignor Death
with a mitre on his head

Red slippers on his feet
And formaldehyde in his veins

Lizzy,

You lost me on that last one.

Joe
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Post by Tchocolatl »

Lz, I told you that you win.

There is better way to make people love you, you know, better ways than to say white with someone you want to seduce one day and say black with another one another day.

For the false argumentation, because I know by now that they have no real argumentation with you - you go into a tantrum or hysteria crisis when somebody "dare" to challenge you on your opinion, I already told you that you "win". You win you win you win. You are a godess I am a demon, you are all good I am all bad, you are eveything, I am nothing. And I have a lot of fun right now about all that.

Now.

I tell you now to stop insulting me, like you insult all people when you are please to to it FOR NOTHING AT ALL AS USUAL if are such this good peson you pretend that you are. Because it is not intellectual intelligence nor the intelligence from the heart. It it only the intellingenc of the bully that you are too often. Bully. I repeat Bully. If you should continue you only prove my point. I know that you will. So I have a lot of fun again.
PhilMader wrote:tchocolatl,
If you're trying to say no one is an angel and no one is a devil. I agree with you, but that doesn't stop me from expressing my life's experience, especially as it relates so closely to Irving Layton's. And I have no intention of doing so.
As far as I'm concerned this line of discussion has come to an end.
- Phil Mader
Phil, I hope that you never stop to express your life experience. And I hope you will never take offense that I express mine, because it may be different than yours.

To stop you to express your life experience was not the point. I'm sorry that this discussion is polluted by the efforts of Lz to look nice to your eyes. Tell her that she is great. That you like her better than me. She is starving for this and maybe this will stop the nasty attack against my posts.

I just hope that you take all the content of my posts in consideration, not only what other "nice" people want you to do. But. It's a free world :wink: If you want to go that way.... I would be sorry because I think it is a dead end. For me I can't just go in dead ends. I prefer free spirits. :D
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Hi Joe ~
Lizzy,

You lost me on that last one.

Joe
It was simply another way of saying "You're welcome," when you thanked me regarding my compliment... to say:

warranted = words ~ what you wrote is warranted for my words

words = warranted ~ when you look at my words, what you wrote backs them up; and so my words are warranted.


Just another way of saying, "You're welcome. You, and what you've written, deserve it" :wink: .

~ Lizzy
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Post by jarkko »

Back in 1999 I offered a small poem to the Leonard Cohen newsgroup about Irving Layton.

Unfortunately, the tone of the poem generated responses that assumed Layton had just died and I had to spend some time assuring people that he hadn’t.

Now, of course, the sad truth of the matter is that Layton has now left his books behind and left.

I wonder then if this little poems time has come? It is my little tribute to the man.



I don't think we'll hear it on the news,

Nor do I imagine that my girl will dream

and pass me the information in her sleep.

I believe there will be a cry across the cold Atlantic,

And the moon will blink with pain,

When you cheat death into looking over his shoulder,

And stab him with your fork.



While we assemble our pages,

And lean once more,

Against the hull of each line,

The ghost of your defiant laugh

will keep us warm,

Convinced that we can finish

what took you your whole life to start.


for Irving Layton

Best wishes,
Michael Begg
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Such a fully-fitting, beautiful poem and tribute that Michael wrote. As it turned out, its only 'inaccuracy' would be that it was heard on the news, unless I misinterpreted that line. He may have meant that the "cry across the cold Atlantic / And the moon . . . blink[ing] with pain" would reach them first. . . or that they would initially hear of it more privately, which was, indeed, the case. A wonderful way he has looked at Irving, in regard to his death and his life.
The ghost of your defiant laugh

will keep us warm,
I could quote the whole of it for the parts I like, but for now these lines are enough to show that it's outstanding.
That just resonates and speaks to so many things at once!

Thank you for sharing it, Jarkko.


Love,
Elizabeth
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