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Hi Bee, well, I think, from personal experience, that when you have those overwhelming emotions of which you speak, you are overwhelmed because you have not processed and accepted these feelings. Stuck with these feelings, you might not be able to reach spiritual experience . I believe it's on a continuum. When Zen Buddhists sit in meditation, the first things that disturb the mind are all the unresolved and avoided aspects of their emotional life. Once they are no longer avoided, but embraced, progess is made. The less you are tangled up in thoughts, the freer you become.

Dear Fljots, yes, that's about what I mean. Good on you for being good to yourself! Me, I had a wonderful therapist who taught me everything important I needed to know about Love, and helped me to sort my mind out to a degree I'd never have thought possible beforehand. If you want to know that story, it'll have to wait until I meet you in person ( ) as I don't want to talk about it in a public place like this.

Yes, Lizzy; that's a lovely bit of writing by Boss. Yeah, me too. I think G~d is in the beautiful vibrant autumn colours outside right now, in the face of a newborn baby, in the laughter of old friends, in the face of the one you love when you're making love, in the words of Leonard Cohen, in the sun shining through the mist early in the morning, in the elation of going downhill on the edge of control on a mountain bike, in the flow of the rivers and the crashing of the waves, it is in the expansive silence of the desert at night, and in the connections we make on this forum. It's in the beautiful voice of Christy Moore playing from my speakers right now.

These are some of the places I find G~d .

Love,

Diane

Perfectly lovely examples, too, Diane .

Love,
Lizzy

So it goes Diane, some would need a therapist, who also has a therapist, who had a therapist, some just enjoy God!

Oh, Bee, that's true, and I'm still quite crazy you know .

I'm glad you enjoy God.

Take care,

Diane

Oh, Bee, that's true, and I'm still quite crazy you know .

Do not know, if you were crazy, better ask YdF.
But, as you have addressed the dear Bossman as a very wise man -- than again- perhaps, you have shared same room sometimes, you two would know better, who is crazy, who is not. I have heard, that usually, the patients would think, that the doctors are crazy. Perhaps, there will be no problem in the future.
Bossman, tell me, how did I know, just after couple of your posts, that a man in a white coat is looking over your shoulder, while you were writing your posts? It is a puzzle, isn't it? I am sneaking in everywhere, aint I?

, bee you're sneaking in. I'm petrified. Don't know where to run...

Not really sure what you're talking about .

Kindest regards

Adam

bee wrote:

Really? Well, maybe you have to be a believer to believe that only believers can distinguish between good and evil. Such vanity! Such prejudice!

Fljots- why are you assuming, that the great philosophers, thinkers and geniuses of mind would have such prejudice and vanity? Because they did not. Just turn the mirror to yourself. Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, Socrates, Thomas Moor, Erasmus said nothing about believers or non believers-they were examining human nature and God.

No. YOU said it, my dear. And it was to YOU I was speaking, NOT Aristotle, Aquinas, Erasmus, Moore, Socrates or anyone else. YOU. I responded to YOU; to YOUR comment that:

This concept defines the relationship between human and God thus accordingly, all the following of that concept, ability to differ good and evil, to make a choice etc.

I was giving you the credit for having a thought you didn't get out of a book.

bee wrote:Including yours. Thoughts of these man lay in a very foundation even in your little poetry writings, even if you don't have a clue about it.

Why shouldn't I laugh? Am I not allowed to have a mind of my own, and make my own conclusions about things? Why should I depend on the writings of others -- however eminent -- to form my opinions?

Sure, you can laugh, but you must know, that you are laughing at yourself.

I often do. What's wrong with that?

bee wrote:May be, just may be you can entertain the motion, that perhaps, that mind of your own is not that deep? That, perhaps some cleaning and some learning is due?

Teaching your grandma to suck eggs! If you only knew me, ROFL!!

bee wrote:Why would you think there are writings of others so eminent? Perhaps, because they are so much higher and deeper than yours and mine?

Dear - why does THAT mean I have to swallow whole everything everyone wrote in the past? Perhaps I should also accept the doctines of the ancient Assyrians or Babylonians or Egyptians? Or even, coming to modern past times, the doctrines of Hitler in Mein Kampf?
Times change. People move on. Why insist on staying in the past in your head and your opinions?
Not saying those ancient friends of yours didn't have some good thoughts - they surely did - and so did the Bible writers. And yes, they all affect us even today, so far on in the stream or sea of time. But so also do the thoughts of the lowliest flint knapper from the early morning of human history, and the thoughts of the Victorian chimney sweeper.
Do not make the mistake of believing only 'the great and famous' have minds and thoughts worth considering.
I claim no great intellect. I don't have to. Why should I? But I have a mind that can think and form ideas, and express them. Do you? Or do you depend on your ancient great thinkers to think for you?

bee wrote:

Because what I wrote was my own thought. Are you the only person capable of thinking, my dear? You must be very young! Let me guess -- a teenage girl?

No, Fljots, I don't think that-for the very reason I mentioned above, there are very wise people to learn from, not to be laughed at. But of course, a wise one can always learn also from a fool.
Yes, I am a teenage girl, who still thinks, that learning is a good thing, which keeps you young always.

I knew it! None but the very young see in black and white, and are so certain they are right!
I don't mind that, really. I actually like young people. I have 3 grandsons. One 22, one 14, 1 almost 3.

As for keeping on learning - yes indeed! I started university at the age of 57 and graduated at the age of 60. I have always loved learning, and I read extensively; but I have learned to to read with an open mind - but one that tends to see flaws in arguments much more readily than I used to as a girl! As a girl, I swallowed everything whole...

Keep learning, Bee.

Diane wrote:
Dear Fljots, yes, that's about what I mean. Good on you for being good to yourself! Me, I had a wonderful therapist who taught me everything important I needed to know about Love, and helped me to sort my mind out to a degree I'd never have thought possible beforehand. If you want to know that story, it'll have to wait until I meet you in person ( ) as I don't want to talk about it in a public place like this.

I was never one to ask for help. I learned early on that the only one I could really depend on was me, and that if anything needed doing, I did it myself. I had a variety of tiny 'epiphanies', from childhood on. I guess everyone does. For example, I was terrified of the dark (it was much darker back then) and especially the monsters in the dark. I lived my life in abject terror of night. When I was about 12, I thought "I can't go on living like this!" So I thought about it. Realised none of the monsters had ever actuall touched me, and set out to prove to myself that I had nothing to fear from them. I shut myself in a tiny enclosed, deeply dark closet, with one hand on the doorhandle. When the terror got too much I threw open the door to let in the light. After a time, I became positive that the monsters couldn't touch me, they could only make me afraid.
It took longer to disbelieve in the monsters, LOL!
And I have had lots of small things like that in my life... I assume everyone does, but doesn't say anything.

Diane wrote: Yes, Lizzy; that's a lovely bit of writing by Boss. Yeah, me too. I think G~d is in the beautiful vibrant autumn colours outside right now, in the face of a newborn baby, in the laughter of old friends, in the face of the one you love when you're making love, in the words of Leonard Cohen, in the sun shining through the mist early in the morning, in the elation of going downhill on the edge of control on a mountain bike, in the flow of the rivers and the crashing of the waves, it is in the expansive silence of the desert at night, and in the connections we make on this forum. It's in the beautiful voice of Christy Moore playing from my speakers right now.

These are some of the places I find G~d .

Love,

Diane

I'm the one that crashes the bike...

But yes, all you say affects me in the same way, Diane, except for the god bit. I exult in beauty or splendour or the power of the natural world, and the wonder of the human body and mind - but have no need to ascribe any of it to a god. It IS and it is breathtaking and uplifting in and of itself. For me.

Hi Fljots, too right the only person you can depend on is yourself. But you need to be able to depend on others first. If your original parenting is pretty bad, getting help from someone else can make all the difference. If not, then yes, you can manage with yourself and your family and friends.

A god by any other name would be as sweet, eh Fljots?

I crash too, sometimes, and it hurts (no broken bones yet), but the fun of it is worth it for me, and I ride with a great bunch – we have an amazing time .

No time to write much today, gotta dash, away until Monday.

See you,

Diane

A god by any other name would be as sweet, eh Fljots?

This is how I feel, too, Diane. Who knows but what our G~d, gods, non-existing-god forces aren't somewhere in a confab looking at us, toasting each other, laughing at our semantics.

Travel and be safe, Diane. See you on Monday.

Love,
Lizzy

Hi all,

This is a very interesting discussion and I hope you don't mind my jumping in. Flots and Diane, I admire the emotional freedom that your atheism has brought you-I am certain any benign, loving creator would want this for you. Boss, you have my admiration for overcoming a terribly difficult situation with much grace and understanding.

I recently read a short story by Flannery O'Connor called, "Parker's Back." In it, the main character, Parker, is a typical, southern gothic, character for which O'Connor is well known. He is hard-drinking, tattooed, young man who somehow marries a "righteous" woman. In an effort to please her and overcome her objections to his tattooes and ungodliness, he has a tatoo of Jesus done on his back. Here are excerpts from the conclusion of the story:

"Don't you know who it is?" he cried in anguish.

"No, who is it?" Sarah Ruth said. "It ain't anybody I know."

"It's him." Parker said.

"Him who?"

"God!" Parker cried.

"God? God don't look like that!"

"What do you know how he looks?" Parker moaned, "You ain't seen him."

"He don't look," Sarah Ruth said. "He's a spirit. No man shall see his face."

"Aw, listen," Parker groaned, "This is just a picture of him."

"Idolatry!" Sarah Ruth screamed. "Idolatry! Enflaming yourself with idols under every green tree! I can put up with lies and vanity, but I don't want no idolator in this house!" and she grabbed up the broom and began to thrash him across the shoulders with it.

Parker was too stunned to resist. He sat there and let her beat him until she had nearly knocked him senseless and large welts had formed on the face of the tattooed Christ. Then he staggered up and made for the door.

She stamped the broom two or three times on the floor and went to the window and shook it to get the taint of him off it. Still gripping it, she looked toward the pecan tree and her eyes hardened still more. There he was-who called himself Obadiah Elihue-leaning against the tree, crying like a baby.

Have a nice weekend everybody.

Love,

Joe

No. YOU said it, my dear. And it was to YOU I was speaking, NOT Aristotle, Aquinas, Erasmus, Moore, Socrates or anyone else. YOU. I responded to YOU; to YOUR comment that:

This concept defines the relationship between human and God thus accordingly, all the following of that concept, ability to differ good and evil, to make a choice etc.

I was giving you the credit for having a thought you didn't get out of a book

Now, Fljots, I can see, that there is no way to get any sense out of you, even if you were beaten with a broomstick. Your logos vulgaris is beyond reach. I don't see a need going in to grandchildren competition, sadly, it does not add anything to the capacity of your intellectual faculties, so, we can leave it at that. Write some nice poetry, I am sure, we will enjoy that

Boss wrote

bee you're sneaking in. I'm petrified. Don't know where to run...

Not really sure what you're talking about .

Yes, you do!! What happened Boss? You deleted your entire, rather nasty post! Did not quite fit with the LOVE sermon you were preaching before? Would ruin your love guy image for the girls? But I saw it, Bossy, I did see it! See, there is very good test, how to try a fake Saint-just step on his foot-than you will hear, all he has to say in all seriousness from the bottom of his heart!
Bossy, we are playing hide and seek, just that I can see you, but you could never see me.

bee wrote:

No. YOU said it, my dear. And it was to YOU I was speaking, NOT Aristotle, Aquinas, Erasmus, Moore, Socrates or anyone else. YOU. I responded to YOU; to YOUR comment that:

This concept defines the relationship between human and God thus accordingly, all the following of that concept, ability to differ good and evil, to make a choice etc.

I was giving you the credit for having a thought you didn't get out of a book

Now, Fljots, I can see, that there is no way to get any sense out of you, even if you were beaten with a broomstick. Your logos vulgaris is beyond reach. I don't see a need going in to grandchildren competition, sadly, it does not add anything to the capacity of your intellectual faculties, so, we can leave it at that. Write some nice poetry, I am sure, we will enjoy that

Laughs Heheh! You ain't no 14yr old, girl. I saw your picci in the Gallery.

No, no way at all to get sense out of me - if what you call sense is agreeing with you, lol!
Lets call friends, huh? I sorta think I might like you.

Diane wrote:Hi Fljots, too right the only person you can depend on is yourself. But you need to be able to depend on others first. If your original parenting is pretty bad, getting help from someone else can make all the difference. If not, then yes, you can manage with yourself and your family and friends.

A god by any other name would be as sweet, eh Fljots?

I crash too, sometimes, and it hurts (no broken bones yet), but the fun of it is worth it for me, and I ride with a great bunch – we have an amazing time .

No time to write much today, gotta dash, away until Monday.

See you,

Diane

You take care on that bike, you hear me?!

I used to ride a motorbike, but the only potentially serious accident I had was on a bicycle I lost control of. I hit a wooden fence instead of a wall. Trashed the bike. I was ok.

A god by any other name would be as sweet, eh Fljots?

Er... ? Not quite sure how to answer that, lol!