BOB DYLAN IS A GREATER SONGSTER THAN LEONARD COHEN

[Manna]

Cohen even gets airplay there; whereas, here, it's exceedingly rare.

There was a local guy on our local station (same station that plays NPR, some PRI, and Amy Goodman of Pacifica). The idea of his show was that he would read a little paragraph about why he liked a song or what it meant to him, or a story that the song brought to mind, then he'd play the song. Often the show would have a theme. Sometimes he would ask the listeners to participate and write a segment - a paragraph and a song to go with it. I did this a few times, and the host and I became friends. The point of my little story here is that this is how LC got air time on our local station. Ah, but have you noticed my use of past tense? The show was cancelled to make room for local sports.

[lizzytysh]

Such a great story to have such a sad ending, Manna. I refuse to follow that up with, "But, then, all good things must come to an end." Sports!?! What a great premise for a show... so much in time with my comments on another thread about "Top 10" lists . That had to be a great show... while it lasted.


~ Lizzy

[DBCohen]

When speaking of the great singers-songwriters who came out of the ‘60’s and still survive today, it’s not just the duo of Dylan and Cohen, but a trio, with Paul Simon.

It's always a fancy thing to see how the rest of the world simply does not exist, there's no place for the singer songwriters on another languagues, such statements reveal the sign of the hegemonic culture..., c´est un peu triste de voir ça, c'est tout...

This certainly wasn’t my intention. Originally I was going to write: “of the great North-American singer-songwriters who came out of the ‘60’s…”, but for some reason these words were omitted. Far be it from me to speak for a hegemonic culture, of which I’m not even a part. It is simply the fact that these North American guys are the best known to the readers of this Forum, and generally around the world. If I’d have mentioned great artists from my home country (Israel) or my temporary home country (Japan), hardly anyone would have known what I’m talking about. I could have mentioned many French, Brazilian and other great songwriters I admire, but this wasn’t the point either. First, Brel and Brassens are dead for many years, and I was talking of those who’ve been active since the 60’s and are still active today; for that reason I didn’t mention the Beatles either. Second, I did have in mind the North American context in that case, and my only aim was to argue that when speaking of Cohen and Dylan in that context, one should also mention Simon in the same breath, although each one of them is unique and different in many ways. Sorry I didn't make my point clearer to begin with.

[~greg]

When speaking of the great singers-songwriters who came out of the '60's
and still survive today, it's not just the duo of Dylan and Cohen, but a trio, with Paul Simon.
It is also interesting to reflect on how each of them regarded his Jewishness.
For Dylan it was a struggle, discovering Christianity at some stage and then pulling back out (or not?).
For LC it was always an obvious part of his work, even when he got interested in other forms of spirituality.
For Simon it was totally irrelevant, as far as I know, and there's never a hint of it in anything he's done.

Hearts And Bones

One and one-half wandering Jews free to wander wherever they choose
are traveling together in the Sangre de Christo, the Blood of Christ Mountains of New Mexico.
On the last leg of a journey they started a long time ago,
the arc of a love affair, rainbows in the high desert air.
Mountain passes slipping into stone, hearts and bones, hearts and bones, hearts and bones.

Thinking back to the season before, looking back through the cracks in the door,
two people were married, the act was outrageous,
the bride was contagious, she burned like a bride.
These events may have had some effect on the man with the girl by his side,
the arc of a love affair, his hands rolling down her hair.
Love like lightning shaking till it moans, hearts and bones, hearts and bones, hearts and bones.

And whoa, whoa she said why?
Why don't we drive through the night, we'll wake up down in Mexico?
Oh I, I don't know nothing about, nothing about no Mexico.
And tell me why, why won't you love me for who I am, where I am?
He said, 'cause that's not the way the world is baby.
This is how I love you baby, this is how I love you baby.'

One and one-half wandering Jews returned to their natural coasts
to resume old acquaintances, step out occasionally
and speculate who had been damaged the most.
Easy time will determine if these consolations will be their reward,
the arc of a love affair waiting to be restored.
You take two bodies and you twirl them into one,
their hearts and their bones, oh, and they won't come undone.
Hearts and bones, hearts and bones, hearts and bones, hearts and bones

[DBCohen]

Thanks very much, Greg. This must be the exception to the rule, or maybe there is more that can be looked for and found?

And how did I miss it? There are really no limits to one’s ignorance (or partial deafness, in this case).

[liverpoolken]

I applaud anyone who discovers Dylan or Leonard and then goes on to seek to know more about them, their work, and influences.

Leonard and Dylan are on journeys of discovery, as we all should be.

So let's cast all this Leonard vs Dylan aside and seek whatever light we can from both these artists.

I have always been more than happy to help neophyte admirers to learn more of their work .
Almost inevitably this will lead them to a greater and deeper appreciation of their work.

Just to end on a lighter note I remember that on a recent thread around here there was a battle of palidromes taking place.
Check out Weird Al Yankovic’s brilliant video of palidromes inspired by Mr. Dylan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nej4xJe4Tdg

Then check out the original

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-xIulyVsG8

Ta Ken

[tomsakic]

Sergio Endrigo, George Brassens, Gino Paolo, few of many from 1960s chansioniers boom in Europe. The great Bulat Okudzawa, then Visocky... Antonio will probably know someone from Spain.

THE guy in Croatia and former Yugoslavia was - and still is - Arsen Dedic. Endrigo's friend, winner of Premio Tenco award one yeasr after our Leonard. Titled "the Croatian Cohen" - as he's poet and singer-songwriter - and "the Yugoslav Bacharach" - as he wrote dozens of songs for other popular singers. Dylan's and Cohen's great scholar Stephen Scobie attended his show when he was in Croatia few years ago, commenting after that, in the papers, that from the first moment it was clear he's in presence of great author of Dylan's and Cohen's capacity.

From unpublished LP "Arsen sings Leonard Cohen" (why unpublished, long and very sad story. It could be the first Cohen tribute album ever - it was recorded in early 70s) - here comes Stories of the Street in Croatian language, captured in mid 1970s from Radio Belgrade's broadcast (announcement for an unreleased LP):

http://www.leonardcohencroatia.com/Ulicne%20price.wma

[lizzytysh]

It was in the mid-70s from off the radio ? This was beautiful... Arsen's very comfortable in his own skin singing Leonard. Perhaps, you'll someday be up to sharing what the snafu was that resulted in his record never getting released . If not then, why not now?

Thanks for this link, Tom... very pleasing this time of the morning.


~ Lizzy

[tomsakic]

Four tracks survived - broadcasted by Radio Belgrade in mid 1970s - and I received all 4 on CDR (transfered from an old /reel?/ tape). The Stranger Song, Nancy, Stories of the Street and The Partisan.

To make long story short, the complete LP was ready for the release, and then the mastertape dissapeared over the night, never to be found. Arsen Dedic had nervous breakdown after that and wasn't capable to record it again, as it was done in his typical early style (full symphony orchestration). He simply moved to the next project after that, trying to forget it. Later he reelased LP "Kantautor", with one song by each of his favourite colleagues. Beside Nancy (only with piano), there was Lennon, Brel, Okudzawa, Endrigo and dozen of others (but no Dylan).

Not to mention that the translation was done - catching line after line from LPs - by famous poet Nikica Petrak, and it's mesmerizing.

[lizzytysh]

Thanks for the jist of it, Tom.

Not to mention that the translation was done - catching line after line from LPs - by famous poet Nikica Petrak, and it's mesmerizing.

Does this relate to the unreleased LP [that it was done for all of the songs... and that you have this for the 4 that you now have?

Or, is this regarding the album Arsen finally did release?

You're right... it is very sad, and was obviously devastating for him. Understandably. A lot of beautiful work disappeared. Are you thinking of posting links to the other three, as well?

Thanks.


~ Lizzy

[tomsakic]

Nikica Petrak translated Cohen's album (about 10 or 12 songs, he recalls). Arsen is actually known as translator of other singer-songwriters, he calls that work "translations for singing" and did everything he ever sung, except for Leonard's songs (I guess he's not so good in English, but in French, Italian and Russian [he not only sung Okudzawa, but has many own songs and poems about Okudzawa visiting him in Croatia, not to mention songs with lines like "I am coming back to warm years, I am coming back to the south, I am coming back to Aznavour"]. For years Arsen kept the programme (recital) "I am singing the poets", whose covers he selected for two albums, "Pjevam pjesnike" (I am singing the poets) and "Kantautor" (Singer-songwriter). http://www.arsen.hr & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsen_Dedi%C4%87 & http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0214097/

[lizzytysh]

Thanks for that info, Tom .


~ Lizzy

[david birkett]

This is a purely personal response and is in no way intended to disparage or malign anybody.

Having not fallen into the well of Cohen until my forties, I was recently surprised by my own reaction to listening to Dylan again. Although I used to derive intense pleasure from hos work, I now find the songs somewhat strident and unpleasantly contrived, and lacking the emotional depth and certainly the verbal polish of Cohen.

It can be very peculiar when a cultural touchstone ceases to function - it was, at the risk of sounding wildly pretentious, like a small bereavement.

Best to all.


David

[pygmyking]

As I read about Dylan's 600 songs, compared to Leonard's lesser number, it occurred to me that I don't recall hearing anything about Bob Dylan poetry.

lizzy, some of Dylan's streams of consciousness can be found in the liner notes of his early albums, but Another Side of Bob Dylan in particular features quite a number of (titleless) poems that are explicitly presented as poems.

Yeah, I was going to mention that... I remember them all being titled something like, 'Some Other Kinds of Songs: Poems by Bob Dylan' (paraphrased).

[lizzytysh]

Hi Pygmyking ~

For me, The Last Poets heralded in rap... but, who knows?

I think the essence of humility you get from Cohen and Dylan is what draws me to both musicians.

I agree with this. So, how is Waits in this regard?



~ Lizzy