Dear Lizzytysh,
I am not old. I do not live in smog. Read my profile. More of your conclusions?
hell bent on war
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George Gordon
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:21 am
- Location: Scotland, Greece
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tom.d.stiller
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- Location: ... between the lines ...
- Contact:
Dear all
I suggest a truce between the factions of this thread (though I am well aware that there never have been "factions" but individuals speaking their own mind).
This doesn't mean that anybody should refrain from speaking her/his mind, but with every post we should consider, whether our wording might unnecessarily hurt other people's feeling.
My impression is that not so much the differences in views, but rather the assumption the other one might aim at the heart of the person, and not at the heart of the matter, made some of us feel quite uncomfortable many times over the last few weeks.
So let's look for a new skin for the old ceremony...
Tom
I suggest a truce between the factions of this thread (though I am well aware that there never have been "factions" but individuals speaking their own mind).
This doesn't mean that anybody should refrain from speaking her/his mind, but with every post we should consider, whether our wording might unnecessarily hurt other people's feeling.
My impression is that not so much the differences in views, but rather the assumption the other one might aim at the heart of the person, and not at the heart of the matter, made some of us feel quite uncomfortable many times over the last few weeks.
So let's look for a new skin for the old ceremony...
Tom
George Gordon ~
There is nothing on your Profile suggesting your age, one way or the other. However, a couple clues I did go by were (a) your calling me "young lady" ~ a patronizing term, or an age-status-indicating term, or both. The content of your post indicated the former ~ however, (b) when I answered you using the term "old," you replied to the effect of, "Yes, I am old." Perhaps, I should find some clues in your own inconsistency?
There is no smog anywhere in Greece? Not even Athens? No fog in Greece? No pollutants in Greece? Well, smog also clouds one's vision, and metaphorically, that was my point.
No conclusions, George....just guesses and metaphors.
There is nothing on your Profile suggesting your age, one way or the other. However, a couple clues I did go by were (a) your calling me "young lady" ~ a patronizing term, or an age-status-indicating term, or both. The content of your post indicated the former ~ however, (b) when I answered you using the term "old," you replied to the effect of, "Yes, I am old." Perhaps, I should find some clues in your own inconsistency?
There is no smog anywhere in Greece? Not even Athens? No fog in Greece? No pollutants in Greece? Well, smog also clouds one's vision, and metaphorically, that was my point.
No conclusions, George....just guesses and metaphors.
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George Gordon
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:21 am
- Location: Scotland, Greece
Dear Lizzytysh,
I have never called you a young lady. (Although, how that could be an insult I'll never know)
I have never said that I am old man. I am 36 years of age. And I don't intend to grow older.
I don't reside in Athens. I spent my youth in Scotland. I divide my time between Messolonghi and Nottinghamshire. There is no smog in either location.
Please reconsider your conclusions.
I have never called you a young lady. (Although, how that could be an insult I'll never know)
I have never said that I am old man. I am 36 years of age. And I don't intend to grow older.
I don't reside in Athens. I spent my youth in Scotland. I divide my time between Messolonghi and Nottinghamshire. There is no smog in either location.
Please reconsider your conclusions.
George Gordon ~
A portion of my conclusions have forthwith been reconsidered. A case of mistaken identity, as to who said what. Perhaps I'll consider devising a disclaimer as to which detractor I'm addressing.....I'm sure there will be sufficient overlap
as to not really make that big of a difference 
, but I may want to try, just in case. After all, love calls you by your name.
OK, so back to you, George. Nothing in your Profile to suggest your age. Nothing in your Profile to suggest the division of your time between the respective locations. I have no idea regarding the literal smog factor, except for what you've most recently said, but regardless of where, it remains a good metaphor....though not as good as if it directly related to the area where you live. Your Profile [in case you've looked ] also says Greece, with no mention of the cities you've listed.
Of course, the insult with "young lady" would be in the patronizing attitude, particularly if you're not young.
Hang in there with the not growing older, and the sooner you can share your techniques, the better.
A portion of my conclusions have forthwith been reconsidered. A case of mistaken identity, as to who said what. Perhaps I'll consider devising a disclaimer as to which detractor I'm addressing.....I'm sure there will be sufficient overlap
as to not really make that big of a difference , but I may want to try, just in case. After all, love calls you by your name.OK, so back to you, George. Nothing in your Profile to suggest your age. Nothing in your Profile to suggest the division of your time between the respective locations. I have no idea regarding the literal smog factor, except for what you've most recently said, but regardless of where, it remains a good metaphor....though not as good as if it directly related to the area where you live. Your Profile [in case you've looked
] also says Greece, with no mention of the cities you've listed.Of course, the insult with "young lady" would be in the patronizing attitude, particularly if you're not young.
Hang in there with the not growing older, and the sooner you can share your techniques, the better.
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George Gordon
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:21 am
- Location: Scotland, Greece
One last cut and paste?
The News We Kept to Ourselves
By EASON JORDAN
ATLANTA — Over the last dozen years I made 13 trips to Baghdad to lobby the government to keep CNN's Baghdad bureau open and to arrange interviews with Iraqi leaders. Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard — awful things that could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff.
For example, in the mid-1990's one of our Iraqi cameramen was abducted. For weeks he was beaten and subjected to electroshock torture in the basement of a secret police headquarters because he refused to confirm the government's ludicrous suspicion that I was the Central Intelligence Agency's Iraq station chief. CNN had been in Baghdad long enough to know that telling the world about the torture of one of its employees would almost certainly have gotten him killed and put his family and co-workers at grave risk.
Working for a foreign news organization provided Iraqi citizens no protection. The secret police terrorized Iraqis working for international press services who were courageous enough to try to provide accurate reporting. Some vanished, never to be heard from again. Others disappeared and then surfaced later with whispered tales of being hauled off and tortured in unimaginable ways. Obviously, other news organizations were in the same bind we were when it came to reporting on their own workers.
We also had to worry that our reporting might endanger Iraqis not on our payroll. I knew that CNN could not report that Saddam Hussein's eldest son, Uday, told me in 1995 that he intended to assassinate two of his brothers-in-law who had defected and also the man giving them asylum, King Hussein of Jordan. If we had gone with the story, I was sure he would have responded by killing the Iraqi translator who was the only other participant in the meeting. After all, secret police thugs brutalized even senior officials of the Information Ministry, just to keep them in line (one such official has long been missing all his fingernails).
Still, I felt I had a moral obligation to warn Jordan's monarch, and I did so the next day. King Hussein dismissed the threat as a madman's rant. A few months later Uday lured the brothers-in-law back to Baghdad; they were soon killed.
I came to know several Iraqi officials well enough that they confided in me that Saddam Hussein was a maniac who had to be removed. One Foreign Ministry officer told me of a colleague who, finding out his brother had been executed by the regime, was forced, as a test of loyalty, to write a letter of congratulations on the act to Saddam Hussein. An aide to Uday once told me why he had no front teeth: henchmen had ripped them out with pliers and told him never to wear dentures, so he would always remember the price to be paid for upsetting his boss. Again, we could not broadcast anything these men said to us.
Last December, when I told Information Minister Muhammad Said al-Sahhaf that we intended to send reporters to Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq, he warned me they would "suffer the severest possible consequences." CNN went ahead, and in March, Kurdish officials presented us with evidence that they had thwarted an armed attack on our quarters in Erbil. This included videotaped confessions of two men identifying themselves as Iraqi intelligence agents who said their bosses in Baghdad told them the hotel actually housed C.I.A. and Israeli agents. The Kurds offered to let us interview the suspects on camera, but we refused, for fear of endangering our staff in Baghdad.
Then there were the events that were not unreported but that nonetheless still haunt me. A 31-year-old Kuwaiti woman, Asrar Qabandi, was captured by Iraqi secret police occupying her country in 1990 for "crimes," one of which included speaking with CNN on the phone. They beat her daily for two months, forcing her father to watch. In January 1991, on the eve of the American-led offensive, they smashed her skull and tore her body apart limb by limb. A plastic bag containing her body parts was left on the doorstep of her family's home.
I felt awful having these stories bottled up inside me. Now that Saddam Hussein's regime is gone, I suspect we will hear many, many more gut-wrenching tales from Iraqis about the decades of torment. At last, these stories can be told freely.
The News We Kept to Ourselves
By EASON JORDAN
ATLANTA — Over the last dozen years I made 13 trips to Baghdad to lobby the government to keep CNN's Baghdad bureau open and to arrange interviews with Iraqi leaders. Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard — awful things that could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff.
For example, in the mid-1990's one of our Iraqi cameramen was abducted. For weeks he was beaten and subjected to electroshock torture in the basement of a secret police headquarters because he refused to confirm the government's ludicrous suspicion that I was the Central Intelligence Agency's Iraq station chief. CNN had been in Baghdad long enough to know that telling the world about the torture of one of its employees would almost certainly have gotten him killed and put his family and co-workers at grave risk.
Working for a foreign news organization provided Iraqi citizens no protection. The secret police terrorized Iraqis working for international press services who were courageous enough to try to provide accurate reporting. Some vanished, never to be heard from again. Others disappeared and then surfaced later with whispered tales of being hauled off and tortured in unimaginable ways. Obviously, other news organizations were in the same bind we were when it came to reporting on their own workers.
We also had to worry that our reporting might endanger Iraqis not on our payroll. I knew that CNN could not report that Saddam Hussein's eldest son, Uday, told me in 1995 that he intended to assassinate two of his brothers-in-law who had defected and also the man giving them asylum, King Hussein of Jordan. If we had gone with the story, I was sure he would have responded by killing the Iraqi translator who was the only other participant in the meeting. After all, secret police thugs brutalized even senior officials of the Information Ministry, just to keep them in line (one such official has long been missing all his fingernails).
Still, I felt I had a moral obligation to warn Jordan's monarch, and I did so the next day. King Hussein dismissed the threat as a madman's rant. A few months later Uday lured the brothers-in-law back to Baghdad; they were soon killed.
I came to know several Iraqi officials well enough that they confided in me that Saddam Hussein was a maniac who had to be removed. One Foreign Ministry officer told me of a colleague who, finding out his brother had been executed by the regime, was forced, as a test of loyalty, to write a letter of congratulations on the act to Saddam Hussein. An aide to Uday once told me why he had no front teeth: henchmen had ripped them out with pliers and told him never to wear dentures, so he would always remember the price to be paid for upsetting his boss. Again, we could not broadcast anything these men said to us.
Last December, when I told Information Minister Muhammad Said al-Sahhaf that we intended to send reporters to Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq, he warned me they would "suffer the severest possible consequences." CNN went ahead, and in March, Kurdish officials presented us with evidence that they had thwarted an armed attack on our quarters in Erbil. This included videotaped confessions of two men identifying themselves as Iraqi intelligence agents who said their bosses in Baghdad told them the hotel actually housed C.I.A. and Israeli agents. The Kurds offered to let us interview the suspects on camera, but we refused, for fear of endangering our staff in Baghdad.
Then there were the events that were not unreported but that nonetheless still haunt me. A 31-year-old Kuwaiti woman, Asrar Qabandi, was captured by Iraqi secret police occupying her country in 1990 for "crimes," one of which included speaking with CNN on the phone. They beat her daily for two months, forcing her father to watch. In January 1991, on the eve of the American-led offensive, they smashed her skull and tore her body apart limb by limb. A plastic bag containing her body parts was left on the doorstep of her family's home.
I felt awful having these stories bottled up inside me. Now that Saddam Hussein's regime is gone, I suspect we will hear many, many more gut-wrenching tales from Iraqis about the decades of torment. At last, these stories can be told freely.
overwhelming success??
hundreds killed.. including civilians
full hospitals.... vital medical equipment looted
no saddam ..dead or alive
no weapons of mass destruction.. they must be in Syria
still, the oil is safe so I suppose it was a success.
I still say there was another way...
Is it just me?
Pete
hundreds killed.. including civilians
full hospitals.... vital medical equipment looted
no saddam ..dead or alive
no weapons of mass destruction.. they must be in Syria
still, the oil is safe so I suppose it was a success.
I still say there was another way...
Is it just me?
Pete
1974: Brighton Dome 1976: Birmingham Town Hall 1993: London RAH 2008: Manchester Opera House, London O2, Matlock Bandstand, Birmingham NEC 2009: Liverpool Echo Arena 2013 Birmingham
No, it's not just you, Pete. You're expressing some of the concerns I've had, as well. First, let me say that I am ALSO THRILLED about the totally unexpected discovery and return of the 7 POWs. I'm heartened to hear that they have fared so well, all things considered ~ and that we did not have to wait until another phase of this war to try to figure out where they were at and how to get them home. I am deeply happy for them and their families and only regret that the same outcome was not possible for all their comrades.
As for the war, the writing is on the wall, as now we hear Syria mentioned, in addition to the other Iran and North Korea. To have had the cleric [the popular one], upon whom we were relying for negotiation between the Shiites and the U.S. and convincing them we are "sincere" in our "quest," butchered by a mob along with the unpopular one ~ and only one week after his return to Iraq from Britain, was a tragic and devastating happening.
It is incomprehensible to me that even the most basics of "peace-keeping" [aka occupation] have not been adhered to, i.e. bringing in "peace-keeping forces" to maintain some semblance of law and order; as Pete has said, the destruction and looting of even the most prerequisites for rebuilding, as hospitals [for treatment of the sick and wounded related and not related to the war] and other vital, civilian infrastructures are being looted and burned. NOTHING could have been more predictable than this kind of occurrence.
Chaos and anarchy have been predicted from the beginning. They already have so many competing factions there.....ethnic, religious, and tribal....and divisions within those, as well! It will be difficult for democracy to be considered an attractive option in the midst of those kinds of animosities. As time goes on, the bliss may well be short-lived, as in some areas, it's already becoming so. It appears some have already taken to "settling scores" amongst each other. There have been concerns expressed that some of Saddam's innocent relatives in his hometown will pay the ultimate price for the unfortunate fact of bloodlines, even though nothing else is in alignment.
The unpredictability and instability of it all has already placed Allied Forces in danger to the extent that they are now saying that it's fine for the people to be grateful, "but please keep your distance." It has been said repeatedly by people in Iraq to us to not be deluded, that the jubilation may quickly turn to resentment if Allied Forces [read that "U.S.?] stay too long. It has been predicted, as well, that guerrilla resistance with opposition groups fighting against the Forces may still lie ahead, as time goes on. Having no governing authority will indeed be a problem. One Iraqi person was quoted [recording of them] saying, "This isn't liberation. This is anarchy!" I've also heard the accounts of joyousness not being the case everywhere, and of the fear of what-happens-next uncertainty being the prevailing emotion.
I finally saw some signage that I appreciated on Saturday in Jacksonville. There was a huge billboard that said, "Thank you Tony Blair. G..d Bless the British troops."
Last week, it was being reported that Arab analysts were saying that the U.S. will target other regimes. I think the proof is already in the pudding as to that.
I can and certainly will say that I have been astonished by the relative-minimum of bloodshed of the Allied Forces so far. The "friendly fire" deaths almost seem to outnumber the direct-combat-related ones. However, I can only imagine the count of innocent Iraqis who have died....women, children, adults of all ages and sexes. The "collateral" damage, as we "free" their country. As Pete has also mentioned, Saddam's fate remains unknown. The weapons of mass destruction remain unfound. That's 2 out of the 3 alleged reasons for this conflict. The 3rd is the freeing of the people......for those of them left, will anarchy be the cause of their death, instead of Saddam?
How will the U.S. adapt to the new "threats" of the neighbouring countries, as we continue our siege. Suddenly our fears of them will be heightened. May everyone take their earliest opportunity to go see "Bowling for Columbine."
~ Elizabeth
As for the war, the writing is on the wall, as now we hear Syria mentioned, in addition to the other Iran and North Korea. To have had the cleric [the popular one], upon whom we were relying for negotiation between the Shiites and the U.S. and convincing them we are "sincere" in our "quest," butchered by a mob along with the unpopular one ~ and only one week after his return to Iraq from Britain, was a tragic and devastating happening.
It is incomprehensible to me that even the most basics of "peace-keeping" [aka occupation] have not been adhered to, i.e. bringing in "peace-keeping forces" to maintain some semblance of law and order; as Pete has said, the destruction and looting of even the most prerequisites for rebuilding, as hospitals [for treatment of the sick and wounded related and not related to the war] and other vital, civilian infrastructures are being looted and burned. NOTHING could have been more predictable than this kind of occurrence.
Chaos and anarchy have been predicted from the beginning. They already have so many competing factions there.....ethnic, religious, and tribal....and divisions within those, as well! It will be difficult for democracy to be considered an attractive option in the midst of those kinds of animosities. As time goes on, the bliss may well be short-lived, as in some areas, it's already becoming so. It appears some have already taken to "settling scores" amongst each other. There have been concerns expressed that some of Saddam's innocent relatives in his hometown will pay the ultimate price for the unfortunate fact of bloodlines, even though nothing else is in alignment.
The unpredictability and instability of it all has already placed Allied Forces in danger to the extent that they are now saying that it's fine for the people to be grateful, "but please keep your distance." It has been said repeatedly by people in Iraq to us to not be deluded, that the jubilation may quickly turn to resentment if Allied Forces [read that "U.S.?] stay too long. It has been predicted, as well, that guerrilla resistance with opposition groups fighting against the Forces may still lie ahead, as time goes on. Having no governing authority will indeed be a problem. One Iraqi person was quoted [recording of them] saying, "This isn't liberation. This is anarchy!" I've also heard the accounts of joyousness not being the case everywhere, and of the fear of what-happens-next uncertainty being the prevailing emotion.
I finally saw some signage that I appreciated on Saturday in Jacksonville. There was a huge billboard that said, "Thank you Tony Blair. G..d Bless the British troops."
Last week, it was being reported that Arab analysts were saying that the U.S. will target other regimes. I think the proof is already in the pudding as to that.
I can and certainly will say that I have been astonished by the relative-minimum of bloodshed of the Allied Forces so far. The "friendly fire" deaths almost seem to outnumber the direct-combat-related ones. However, I can only imagine the count of innocent Iraqis who have died....women, children, adults of all ages and sexes. The "collateral" damage, as we "free" their country. As Pete has also mentioned, Saddam's fate remains unknown. The weapons of mass destruction remain unfound. That's 2 out of the 3 alleged reasons for this conflict. The 3rd is the freeing of the people......for those of them left, will anarchy be the cause of their death, instead of Saddam?
How will the U.S. adapt to the new "threats" of the neighbouring countries, as we continue our siege. Suddenly our fears of them will be heightened. May everyone take their earliest opportunity to go see "Bowling for Columbine."
~ Elizabeth
p
'I still say......'
refers to a previous post of mine in this thread based on my instinctive thoughts upon the evidence and released information at the time.
In that post I focussed on timing. To me, the timing of the 'invasion' was the crucial aspect and the same, or better, outcomes may have been achieved after the exhaustion of the weapons inspection programme together with eventual UN backing... and their summer may have been over by then.
Yes, I am overjoyed that the fighting is more or less over and that the ordinary Iraqis are tasting freedom but whilst the tv pictures continue to show maimed civilians..including women and children .. I do not close the book in my mind.
Pete
'I still say......'
refers to a previous post of mine in this thread based on my instinctive thoughts upon the evidence and released information at the time.
In that post I focussed on timing. To me, the timing of the 'invasion' was the crucial aspect and the same, or better, outcomes may have been achieved after the exhaustion of the weapons inspection programme together with eventual UN backing... and their summer may have been over by then.
Yes, I am overjoyed that the fighting is more or less over and that the ordinary Iraqis are tasting freedom but whilst the tv pictures continue to show maimed civilians..including women and children .. I do not close the book in my mind.
Pete
1974: Brighton Dome 1976: Birmingham Town Hall 1993: London RAH 2008: Manchester Opera House, London O2, Matlock Bandstand, Birmingham NEC 2009: Liverpool Echo Arena 2013 Birmingham
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Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
I look at the title of this thread and wonder if 'a war' is the avowed aim of the protagonists?
We are all aware that 'war' can be the sole aim of a warrior class, or mindset.
Having tasted blood, will our leaders be satisfied with the simple 'bread and butter' of ordinary, everyday, mundane, tiresome, diplomatic life?
When people discover that they can wield power, history shows, that they find it difficult to resist wielding it again, and again, and again. Surely that is how Sadam grew to be as aggressive as he was? I hope his greed for power is not supplanted by other peoples' greed for power.
It would be terrible if we became what he had become. By removing him as we did, did we take on his mantle. I shudder at the thought of that concept.
I use the 'Royal' 'we' of course and in no way wish to dress such conceptual abstracts on forum contributors.
We are all aware that 'war' can be the sole aim of a warrior class, or mindset.
Having tasted blood, will our leaders be satisfied with the simple 'bread and butter' of ordinary, everyday, mundane, tiresome, diplomatic life?
When people discover that they can wield power, history shows, that they find it difficult to resist wielding it again, and again, and again. Surely that is how Sadam grew to be as aggressive as he was? I hope his greed for power is not supplanted by other peoples' greed for power.
It would be terrible if we became what he had become. By removing him as we did, did we take on his mantle. I shudder at the thought of that concept.
I use the 'Royal' 'we' of course and in no way wish to dress such conceptual abstracts on forum contributors.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
"...even the most basics of 'peace keeping' have not been adhered to..."
When you put it like that, Elizabeth, it illustrates the fact that the necessary planning was not in place. Possibly, with UN backing, there may have been a peace-keeping force waiting in the wings. We'll never know.
The threat to Britain has obviously receded. The situation in Iraq is now being relegated from the front pages in some newspapers here.
Catherine Zeta Jones and Michael Douglas were the front page news in some papers the other day. A paper today led with a possible vaccine for asthma.
I'm just watching badly burned children on the ITN news as I write and the hospital does not have the necessary resources to cope. The marines have arrived and said that they will help one of them and they took her to another hospital to be told that they cannot do anything... no surgical supplies. The girl is bandaged around the face but then the tv switched to a boy who has lost his arms. They are now talking about the chemical weapon tests in Syria which took place over the last year.
I suppose this is what war is all about so I shouldn't go on. Now, was the war legal in the first place?.. that question has not yet been answered.. or has it?
Pete
When you put it like that, Elizabeth, it illustrates the fact that the necessary planning was not in place. Possibly, with UN backing, there may have been a peace-keeping force waiting in the wings. We'll never know.
The threat to Britain has obviously receded. The situation in Iraq is now being relegated from the front pages in some newspapers here.
Catherine Zeta Jones and Michael Douglas were the front page news in some papers the other day. A paper today led with a possible vaccine for asthma.
I'm just watching badly burned children on the ITN news as I write and the hospital does not have the necessary resources to cope. The marines have arrived and said that they will help one of them and they took her to another hospital to be told that they cannot do anything... no surgical supplies. The girl is bandaged around the face but then the tv switched to a boy who has lost his arms. They are now talking about the chemical weapon tests in Syria which took place over the last year.
I suppose this is what war is all about so I shouldn't go on. Now, was the war legal in the first place?.. that question has not yet been answered.. or has it?
Pete
1974: Brighton Dome 1976: Birmingham Town Hall 1993: London RAH 2008: Manchester Opera House, London O2, Matlock Bandstand, Birmingham NEC 2009: Liverpool Echo Arena 2013 Birmingham