The crack in everything

General discussion about Leonard Cohen's songs and albums
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Cate
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by Cate »

Manna wrote:Jack, or anyone, do you think the universe is finite?
I don’t know if the universe is finite but it does seem to have a centre, which implies a start, which implies and end. Can’t imagine what would be after the end. If the Universe did radiate out from a “big bang” what was before? Are we perpetually exploding and imploding? When did this start – Did it start? What was before – god? If it was god what was before god another god….
I think I had the answer to this once when I was about 22 but it disappeared when I woke up and the smoke lifted.
Manna wrote:Do you think the word universes should be banned?
No – quantum physics implies that there may be an infinite number of universes co-existing at the same time, but maybe we could ban the word Universe instead since it just sends the mind reeling.

I can’t wait to see how Jack answers your question Mana. I love to watch how his mind works – no pressure Jack
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lizzytysh
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by lizzytysh »

Universe instead since it just sends the mind reeling.
Yes, it does, Cate. I went through a major, personal 'thing' about both space and time when I was in high school and found it very disconcerting. Occasionally, I'll begin to do it now, but then stop, as I still find it disconcerting.


~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
Cate
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by Cate »

Very true - you can easily get "stuck".
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daka
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by daka »

Jack, or anyone, do you think the universe is finite?
Do you think the word universes should be banned?
Hi Manna

This short quote re: Buddhist 'Cosmology', I think is relevant:

Buddhism and Cosmology
What are the consequences of the concept of interdependence on cosmological ideas in Buddhism? The concept of interdependence implies that the elements of the conventional reality we are all familiar with do not possess an existence that is permanent and autonomous. This thing exists because something else exists, that happens because this has occurred. Nothing can exist by itself and be its own cause.
Everything depends on everything else. Suppose that there is an entity that exists independently of all the others. This implies that it is not produced by a cause, that is, either it has always existed or it does not exist at all. Such an entity will be unchanging since it cannot act on others and others cannot act on it. The world of phenomena could not function. Thus interdependence is essential for phenomena to manifest themselves.
Because the concept of interdependence implies that nothing can exist by itself and be its own cause, it goes against the idea of a creative principle, a First Cause or a God that is permanent, all-powerful, that has no other cause than itself, and which created the universe. In the same vein, Buddhism rejects the idea that the universe can be born out of nothing - a creation ex-nihilo - because the universe has to depend on something else to emerge. If the universe was created, it is because there was a potentiality already present. The coming into being of the universe is merely the realization of that potentiality. One can thus interpret the Big Bang as the manifestation of the phenomenal world emerging from an infinite potentiality already in existence. In a poetic language, Buddhism speaks about of "particles of space" which carry in them the potentiality of matter. This is strongly reminiscent of the vacuum filled with energy that is thought to have given birth the material content of the universe in the modern Big Bang theory. Material phenomenon and things are not "created" in the sense that they go from a state of non-existence to one of existence. Rather they go from an unrealized state to a realized state. Once it has come into existence, the universe goes through a series of cycles, each composed of 4 stages: birth, evolution, death and a state where the universe is pure potentiality but has not manifested yet itself. This cyclic universe has no beginning nor an end.
I don't personally think that the word universes should be banned because it is the only word that explains the aggregate reality appearing to the mind (and conceptualized by the mind) of a human being. Would you have another suggestion, another 'label' for this concept, Manna? Like most of Buddhist philosophy the principal question applied to all phenomena is not whether they exist, but 'how do they exist?'... objectively, solid, permanent or as a malleable, ephemeral, dream-like appearance to mind(s)... dependent phenomena, dependent on parts, dependent on a basis of imputation, dependent on name, dependent on an apprehending consciousness ). Without these dependencies fulfilled phenomena do not 'come into existence'. And when these dependencies are dissolved, the phenomena (subjective phenomena, all) go out of 'existence'. Since we can say that all phenomena are subjective, when the universe is devoid of apprehending consciousnesses it ceases to exist.

daka
If you don't become the ocean you will be seasick every day....Jikan (aka Leonard Cohen)

It's comin' from the feel that this ain't exactly real, or it's real, but it ain't exactly there! . Jikan
Manna
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by Manna »

world can be used for
the aggregate reality appearing to the mind
The word universes is encompassed in the word universe. Are there any other plurals that are included in their singulars? I guess I can see an argument that I am experiencing a universe that is different from yours, and therefore we can get to say that there are two universes between us. But the universe still includes both. But that isn't true either, because I am not experiencing the whole universe, I am only experiencing what comes my way. We each have a subuniverse, some fraction.
lazariuk
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by lazariuk »

daka wrote: Sounds like you are 'qualified' for communion today!!!!
I was never very good at listening, but I'm trying. recently I came across something that has been called the golden rule of communication and I changed it and now I see the rule as : everything being said is true , try to imagine what it is true of.

It might be a good rule and since I changed it maybe one day I can get to name it, but first I have to test it to see if it can be of any use. Maybe you can help. I want to apply it to what you wrote above.
What is truthful about what you are saying? First the word "sounds" is a hint that you are not writing about me. You have likely never heard my voice. Maybe some day we did meet as we have travelled in the same circles but today you didn't hear my voice. Maybe you were reading something of mine and you felt that there was a sound there and also a feel of that sound that let you continue with "You are qualified for communion today !!!!" There is nothing about your use of the word "you" that makes me feel or think that I am being addressed other than the part of me that seems to covet things. I mean how would you know what I am qualified for?
Now I try to imagine who you are saying you to. I can't go much further here because I am not seeing things from your point of view but I can use my own point of view as a reference and I know that in my experience that there is a "she" who is qualified.
and since this is a Leonard Cohen forum I'll quote a little poem of his that comes to mind as I write this.
"better than me
are you
kinder than me
are you
sweeter smarter faster
you you you
prettier than me
stronger than me
lonelier than me
I want to get to know you
better and better"
Like Leonard says, you could stop there, Jack
First that is not what Leonard says. He says "stop at the surface"
but it isn't Leonard but rather my intuition that is telling me this.
In the case of Buddhism I seem to sense Buddha telling me this. I like the thought of Buddha. There seems to be a Buddha in the universe and I like the feel of him. I say the word Buddha sometimes in my head and with my mouth and I like it. This Buddha that is there is also telling me to stop at the surface. Who is there to tell me that Buddha isn't telling me this.
What I know of Buddha is that he awoke. I awoke one morning.
He learned something under a tree. I learned something under a tree.
I've written a lot about that day Daka and if it interests you I can send stuff to you.
Probably Buddha awoke a lot more than me but that is ok with me, if I was meant to be awoken more it would have happened. What I like about the amount that I awoke is that I am comfortable with it and what is more is that I am confident that what I experienced can be experienced by anyone, without their having to meditate or take drugs or do anything out of their comfort zone. I am also confident that we can all see the crack in everything together and know what each other is speaking about.
I never before really tried to do it but now in this thread I am trying.

I don't know the context of that eggshell analogy given by Buddha. I highly doubt that he was encouraging people to accept the fate of the trapped chick who cannot see beyond the shell! Especially since he was out of the shell. I believe he was mainly trying to help all of humanity get to the place he had discovered, out of the shell. How kind!
You highly doubt? You think egg shells are traps? You think they should be opened before they are ready? You think it is kind to do so?

Buddha did not say that he was not in the shell with us. He did not say that we should not try to open the shell wider. He was never out of the shell.
If anyone can break out of that eggshell, Jack it is you!!
I ain't breaking any shells. Certainly not intentionally. I think that things are find just the way they are and am only interested in seeing things as they are.

In another thread we have been talking a bit about Herman Hesse. He did a journey to the east that he wrote about in a book called "Journey to the East" and he wrote a book about Buddhism which is called Siddhartha. Both are excellent. He took a pretty good look at the east. Later in life he once made the comment that he thought that Martin Buber was one of the few truly wise men who has ever walked upon the surface of this planet. Martin Buber also liked Buddha and spoke highly of him but also said that we can only go with Buddha so far and then we have to go further.
We can only do that from where we are in the beautiful hard, soft, fluids, solids, curves and lines of what is around us that we were born into.
Maybe someday we can all take a look at that shell and it's crack together and then decide together if is wise to rush things.
Last edited by lazariuk on Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
lazariuk
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by lazariuk »

Manna wrote: Jack, or anyone, do you think the universe is finite?
Of course it is finite, an aggregate of finites is always finite.
Do you think the word universes should be banned?
Ha ha ! That is like asking if masturbation should be banned. People can have all kinds of thoughts about multiple universes but it has about the same relevance to reality as masturbation has to the propagation of life. If it gets them off, who am I to judge?

Maybe I'll say more. People can have all kinds of abstractions, when they are inaccurate in their abstractions their abstractions are irrelevant to life.
"only integrity is going to count" Buckminster Fuller
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
Manna
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by Manna »

lazariuk wrote:
Of course it is finite, an aggregate of finites is always finite.
but if there's an outside of it, isn't that universe too? What surrounds the universe?
Do you think the word universes should be banned?
Ha ha ! That is like asking if masturbation should be banned. People can have all kinds of thoughts about multiple universes but it has about the same relevance to reality as masturbation has to the propagation of life. If it gets them off, who am I to judge?
ha ha. point taken. it's a fun thought-toy, eh?

If you masturbate, and throw your wad on the ground, something will eat it. Let's say bacteria. and then that bacteria will multiply and life will be propagated. Yummy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Manna
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by Manna »

I was also thinking about dark matter and space. Is dark matter the stuff that fills the space between objects we can more easily relate to? I don't think it is, because if it were, it would be more than 94%. It would be more like 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% or thereabouts.

The idea that there is just space with nothing in it doesn't feel right to me.

ps. did you know there is a giant cloud (hydrogen?) heading for our galaxy that is going to wreck a lot of havoc? My husband told me this, and I said, "What, in like 50 million years?"
"Oh, baby," said he, "it's not even half that far away."
"How long do we have?"
"Only 20 million years."
lazariuk
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by lazariuk »

Cate wrote: No – quantum physics implies that there may be an infinite number of universes co-existing at the same time, but maybe we could ban the word Universe instead since it just sends the mind reeling.
No quantum physics does not imply that. I am currently reading a book from one of Canada's most distinguised physicists from out your way, who is a founding member and researcher at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Ontario. The book is called "The Crack in Physics". Actually it is called the trouble with physics, if he knew leonard's work better he would have called it the Crack etc. Anyway he points out that for the 30 or more years that physicists have been playing with this idea of multiple universes that not one single useful thing has come of it, not one single accurate prediction. It was like a 35 year jerk-off that was expensive and distracting and arduous. Those are my words. He didn't use those terms. But nevertheless that is what he is saying.
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
lazariuk
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by lazariuk »

lazariuk wrote: I ain't breaking any shells. Certainly not intentionally. I think that things are find just the way they are and am only interested in seeing things as they are.
I got to laugh at myself when i made am omelette for lunch.
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
Cate
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by Cate »

Jack – you can’t shatter my multiple universe theory, I like the idea that whatever could happen does happen, just not here. For example if I make a mistake – that’s okay a Cate somewhere else didn’t. If a car almost hits me I can feel especially lucky to live in the world I live in, because it didn’t work out so well for another Cate. You see all the possibilities are open to me somewhere.

Your probably right though, I'm not sure how they could prove or disprove the theory. My exposure to Quantum Physics is limited to a few articles, my husband and a show called the "Eloquent Universe".

I just hope you don’t tell me that my love for myself wont lead to a third child.
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daka
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Re: The crack in everything

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lazariuk wrote:I ain't breaking any shells. Certainly not intentionally. I think that things are find just the way they are and am only interested in seeing things as they are.
Hi Jack

If I pose that hypothetical question to you: If someone were to offer you a pill and after taking that pill you would , stay for eternity in your mind, body, city, county, city, country, world, weather, universe, family, circle of friends, enjoyments, without any chance for significant change of any of these factors would this be a good news pill for you or a bad news pill?
only interested in seeing things as they are.
I also am interested in sesing things as they are (conventional)
BUT I am also more interested in seeing things as they are not (seeing how this conventional appearance is deceptive and misleading.

daka

I have a little mp3 thingy (10 minutes) which I would really like your opinion on... I will send it...if you read it great, if you delete it that ok too.... I suspect you will appreciate and enjoy it.
If you don't become the ocean you will be seasick every day....Jikan (aka Leonard Cohen)

It's comin' from the feel that this ain't exactly real, or it's real, but it ain't exactly there! . Jikan
lazariuk
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by lazariuk »

daka wrote: If I pose that hypothetical question to you: If someone were to offer you a pill and after taking that pill you would , stay for eternity in your mind, body, city, county, city, country, world, weather, universe, family, circle of friends, enjoyments, without any chance for significant change of any of these factors would this be a good news pill for you or a bad news pill?
Hi Daka
Your question doesn't have to be hypothetical and I don't need a pill to answer it.
I don't even need to imagine such a pill. I don't need to check some book to see if I am getting it right. I can answer directly from my experience and I am completely confident of my answer that it is a truth that I would die for. And if I remove all the hypothetical out of your question I might even be answering the question that you are really asking me without knowing it.
I awoke one morning
I was awakened one morning
Both are true, they were together
or I could say, once at the crack of dawn
I was completely, totally immersed in love with here, this, now. Every little speck of dust floating in the sunlight that was coming in through my window was a world bursting with joy, no wait, it was just find that it was a speck of dust, I don't need to say it was a world. Oh I'll go ahead and say it anyways, every speck of dust seemed like it contained potential worlds of joy. The joy was falling on me like a rain and it seemed to be coming from deep within me. A thought emerged from me and the thought was "I could spend eternity here" That was the only thought that I had about me. It seems to me to answer your question.
I said above that there was only one thought but also the experience came with some knowing that I thought about later.
This experience stayed for the very exact right amount of time.
As what seemed like a little added bonus, after it ended a person who was asleep in the room, who would often talk in his sleep, said in his sleep "see thats the way God wants it to be"
I'll respond to him now. " Well if thats the plan, let it be"

I also am interested in sesing things as they are (conventional)
BUT I am also more interested in seeing things as they are not (seeing how this conventional appearance is deceptive and misleading.
Why do you do us the dis-service of changing my use of "seeing things as they are" by putting that (conventional) behind it?

Here is a little test for you. When you are watching the sun in the late hours of the day, does it look to you like the sun is the one moving and going "down" over the horizon? You know that it is your part of the planet that is turning away from the sun so what you are watching is the effect of old beliefs. Beliefs that are mistaken. If you don't think they are persistent, try sometime to coordinate your senses with what you know to be true and see that that sun is not setting.

I have a little mp3 thingy (10 minutes) which I would really like your opinion on... I will send it...if you read it great, if you delete it that ok too.... I suspect you will appreciate and enjoy it.
cool
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
lazariuk
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Re: The crack in everything

Post by lazariuk »

Manna wrote: The idea that there is just space with nothing in it doesn't feel right to me.
It doesn't feel right to a lot of people and that is why there has been that search for that ultimate something that it is all made out of. That very very tiny something that we can't seem to find.

Seem from another way it might just look like a very thorough search that we have undertaken to be absolutely sure that there isn't anything other than the loving dream.
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
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