Book of Mercy #11-15

[tomsakic]

Time warps?

[BoHo]

+/-

[lizzytysh]

Hi Doron ~

I'm still looking... on this and other matters. A difficult verse comes along and everything comes to a screeching halt after BoHo's input on Thursday!?! Today is Sunday... I keeeep checking, finding nothing, and with so many verses still to go, an alternative would always be to move on... maybe return to it later, as subsequent ones may add light? Right?



~ Still-lookin Lizzy

[Young dr. Freud]

Sheesh folks, this phrase is from one of David's most famous psalms.

Psalm 139:7-10

Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

If I ascend up into heaven thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.


Mystery solved! And you're welcome.

YdF

[DBCohen]

About David in Hell: Psalm 139: 7-10 is as good an example as Psalm 18:5-6 which I quoted on the previous page. I could have quoted five or six other examples. But, first, as I explained there, the original Hebrew “Sheol” does not refer exactly to “Hell”, although this is the term used in the older English translations, including KJV, with which LC must have been familiar. Second, although it is probable to assume that the meeting of David with God in Hell may refer to the above or other examples from the Psalms, somehow something seems to be missing. The more I think about it the more I feel that this is what he must have had in mind, but I’m not wholly convinced yet.

I hope to introduce I.13 soon.

[mat james]

Find me here, you whom David found in hell.

Young Dr. Freud is spot on.
DB, you know how much I love you! but you are being rather oblique/veering away from the obvious.

"Find me here"

As YDF suggests, Leonard is saying that if God can go through the heavens and to hell and back at his leisure, (which also is stated very clearly in the book of Job when God interviews Satan before He "allows" him (Satan) to do the dirty-work on Job) then God ought to be able to find Leonard here in the middle of existence on planet Earth.

you whom David found in hell.

This is the classic perspective of many mystical theologians; that all emanates from God/within God....even the hells and Satan's of the game.
However it should be remembered and/or understood that Satan (Shaitan) is humanity's adversary; not Gods': And therefore just a pawn in the Big Guys game.

Leonard seems to be "uncomfortably aware" of this perspective in this verse of extrapolated frustration.
No pain no gain!

Good going YDF


Matj

[DBCohen]

Mat,

I don’t mean to be pedantic, but what exactly did YDF introduce which I have not already introduced in my earlier posting on page 4 above? I said there, that we can find in the Psalms, including in some of those specifically attributed to David, verses which contain the word “Hell” in the English translation. I gave one example; YDF gave another one. Where is the difference? Perhaps you find his example more relevant to the issue? OK then, but I don’t see much difference, and I can give you several other examples from the Psalms.

I explained that the idea of “heaven and hell” is later than the Old Testament; I know that from today’s perspective, with this notion so much imprinted on our minds, all these ideas are mixed up, but I wished to point out the fact that to the Psalmist “Hell” did not mean what it means to us.

And I certainly agree that we don’t have to look far for hell, and we can easily find it here on earth with us, unfortunately. I don’t really think we have an argument or a disagreement here.

[DBCohen]

I.13
Friend, when you speak this carefully I know it is because you don’t know what to say. I listen in such a way so as not to add to your confusion. I make some reply at every opportunity so as not to compound your loneliness. Thus the conversation continues under the umbrella of optimism. If you suggest a feeling, I affirm it. If you provoke, I accept the challenge. The surface is thick, but it has its flaws, and hopefully we will trip on one of them. Now we can order a meat sandwich for the protein, or we can take our places in the Sanhedrin and determine what is to be done with those great cubes of diamond that our teacher Moses shouldered down the mountain. You want to place them in such a way that the sun by day, and the moon and stars by night, will shine through them. I suggest another perspective which would include the light of the celestial bodies within the supernal radiance of the cubes. We lean toward each other over the table. The dust mingles with the mist, our nostrils widen. We are definitely interested; now we can get down to a Jew’s business.

Remember I.3 and the admonition against studying without a friend? That was long time ago… Anyhow, here we find the friend who was missing then, and together with the narrator they are doing some earnest studying. The friend is not identified. As you know, I usually try to interpret the text in terms of the narrator in it, rather than in terms of LC’s own private life, but sometimes relating to known facts or famous interviews is unavoidable. In the interviews quoted at the earlier stages of the thread we’ve often heard about the young LC studying the Bible with his old maternal grandfather, and I believe it is safe to say that memories of that time are reflected in this text. Of course, it is more complicated then that; we often saw him playing with identities, so the “you” in this case may as well be himself, or one side of himself, that he addresses here. Still, the picture of the two leaning over the table to study the Torah together is very concrete, and must have originated in experience.

The phrase “our teacher Moses” is the traditional Jewish way of mentioning this biblical figure (Moshe rabenu in Hebrew). The way the Torah he brought down from the mountain is described, however, is quite original, full of LC’s own imagery, although it may have been influenced by some Kabbalistic descriptions.

There is a tone here which I’m not sure how to call exactly: perhaps “in your face” attitude. There is a mention of the Sanhedrin, which for Jews brings to mind the great rabbinical tradition of ancient Israel, but for Christians is associated mainly with the injustice of the trial of Jesus, according to the New Testament’s tradition. There is also the “Jew’s business” with which the text ends; for many non-Jews the first association here will probably be of money (what can a Jew’s business be other than dealing with money?), but which here refers to the serious study of the Torah. You can easily imagine him writing this with his tongue deep in his cheek.

Finally, it is probably not a coincidence that this prayer is placed as number 13, which is the same as the age when a Jewish boy celebrates his Bar-Mitzvah, becoming an adult from the religious obligations’ point of view. The earnest studying of the Torah is associated with that time, especially in the lives of non-orthodox Jews (the orthodox begin the earnest study of the Torah around the age of four). Also, compared with most of the earlier 12 prayers, this one can hardly be regarded as a prayer; there is no direct communication with the divine (unless we regard the friend as representing the divine, or even imagine God as the study companion, which is not out of the question). Still, it represents another step he takes in the direction of reaffirming his tradition, following the earlier ones that we’ve seen him taking. And, as always, it is a text of much beauty.

[tomsakic]

Coming back to #12 for a little, I have been suggested by one practising Catholic (thank You very much!) that Christ, who did go upon the hell before ascending to the Heaven, as I wrote earlier, found there - according to Catholic tradition - souls of David, Abraham and Moses and took them with him to heaven.

That seems VERY clear now. You (Jesus Christ) indeed did find David in hell (where he finished because of Bat-sheba I guess).

So, mistery is now solved. Freud's nice quotation, which I agree did not add much to previous Doron's posts, tells us that David is connected with hell (Jewsih equivalent of it), but the question was who was that You who find him there, God? It is Jesus of New Testament.

Now, would you like to finish in the hell because of such a woman? I would Simon?

[tomsakic]

PS. Thank you, Doron, for introducing #13, the piece of such great beauty, and your excellent introduction. You already solved my questions I had previously about this prayer.

[mat james]

I gave one example; YDF gave another one. Where is the difference?

DB

emphasis!

YDF gave that interpretation importance.
in my view, he hit the mark
gave it prominence
he cast his single rod
and caught the fish
while you were still setting a net.

It is also good form to acknowledge another's success.

It is a beautiful thing to watch and listen as you cast your nets DB,
and, it is also satisfying to watch others hook and eat that fish from time to time as you have done in the past.
It is fun when you fire up.

Now ,
I too am ready for round 13

Matj

[DBCohen]

OK, Mat. I humbly acknowledge that what’s seen through my eyes is not necessarily what’s seen through yours.

P.S.
I love you too.

[Simon]

Now, would you like to finish in the hell because of such a woman? I would Simon?

Tom, about I.12, I had indeed interpreted that Batsheba was implicitly part of the picture. But not as the one David found in Hell, rather as the one who involontarily precipitated him there. David found reconciliation with his God in the turmoil that his meeting with her beauty had caused. So it was God whom David found in Hell as God is omnipresent. But I go along with the other interpretations presented here.

I am still struck by the mood swings between the psalms. Note for exemple the tremendous difference between I.10-I.11 who were more intimately domestic and the sudden heavy tone of I.12.

[lazariuk]

I.12
I wait for you in springtime of beatings and gross unnecessary death. Direct me out of this, O magnet of the falling cherry petals.

springtime of beatings? gross unnecessary death?

then he points to something that is very much a part of springtime, the cherry petals.
I am in Vancouver now and even though it is just mid feburary the cherry petals are appearing. On the west coast they are the first signs of spring.

and my thought on this are flowing in the following direction.
I think of the words from the song that goes

" if your life is a leaf that the seasons
tear off and condemm
they will bind you with love
that is graceful and green
Like the stem"

It's probably true of me, but it is something that is often easier to see in others but I have some friends here who are having a hard time because they are holding on to some thoughts of how things should be. Thoughts that will probably eventually lead them into a lot of pain. Thoughts that will lead to hopes that will need to die.
So to me what Leonard is saying in the above is that he has experienced enough of the kind of love and hopes that always lead to pain and death and now he waits. He waits because he knows that what is not permanent will appear, abide and then dissappear. But he also feels that he is in what must he must be led out of. i.e. It is very hard not to feel that we are our thoughts.
The one that he feels is capable of accomplishing the act of directing him out of this situation is that force which attracts the cherry petals to the ground, namely gravity. Which seems to be always there, is something that is a complete mystery but 100% reliable. Using the word magnet brings into focus the circular nature of gravity. That the same force that brings the cherry petals out also causes them to fall back in.

I am currently having some other thoughts about cherry blossoms as a flower that blooms early. Two days ago i went out for lunch with a woman that I know here in Vancouver, on friday I will be going to lunch with her daughter and grand-daughter. In Montreal i have gone out with her mother and in Florida I have gone out with her grand-mother. That is five generations of women from that family. They seem to blossom early. My son thinks that he should keep the tradition alive and so is looking forward to meeting the grand-daughter and the others to see how many generations he can interact with.

[lizzytysh]

I am currently having some other thoughts about cherry blossoms as a flower that blooms early. Two days ago i went out for lunch with a woman that I know here in Vancouver, on friday I will be going to lunch with her daughter and grand-daughter. In Montreal i have gone out with her mother and in Florida I have gone out with her grand-mother. That is five generations of women from that family. They seem to blossom early. My son thinks that he should keep the tradition alive and so is looking forward to meeting the grand-daughter and the others to see how many generations he can interact with.

Hi Jack ~

Welcome interim [hmmm.... an instrumental snippet of "A Thousand Kisses Deep" began to play, on NPR as a marker between one segment and another of the news, at the very moment I was about to type my comma in " , Jack" after "Welcome interim"]. I was going to say that I really don't know what to say on this Quoted paragraph, but that I wanted to say something because of the beautiful approach to life that it describes, and that you are imbuing in your son. Now, it seems, the music has, again, said all that's needed... it's "A Thousand Kisses Deep."

I like the way you've worked with the symbolic cherry blossom, the cycles of life, and once again, the invincible force of gravity that leaves the cherry blossom as beautiful on the ground as it was on the branch. I don't think I've furthered your thematic comments here, with my own, and likely tangentialed, but I still felt the need to say something. I'm glad to see you were able to stop in and hope you and your son continue to enjoy yourselves.

Safe and joy/full travels to the traveling duo.


~ Lizzy