Book of Mercy #6-7
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HNY!
DBCohen like you said, there is a culture of forums and what you withnessed is called "flooding" a thread in order to take the control of it. I tried to show with humour to participants what was happening, which is obvious for someone who follows the thread like you stressed it, but maybe not for others.
I'll make it short. Lizzy thinks that this forum is her personal play ground and does try - and succeed 99.9% because she deserves all this time and energy to control the board. If she can not obtain all the attention she tries to destroy the thread and in any case she attacks the participants who don't comply to her will. A real cancer for any subjects as she has to be the main subject of everything and everyone. She has accomplices sometimes with their consent, sometime with their submission, but sometimes, by pure manipulation. Others don't react not to be in trouble when they meet her during their GTs.
But most of the time, everybody let go because nobody has the time and the energy to stop her - and she has all the time and energy to be here as long as she wish. There is a kind of tolerance to keep peace.
It is like in these hotels in the south you know where they can't get rid ot the coackroches so they feed them a little milk.
But the problem here is that she always find newcomers that she can lure and by the time the person can know what is happening - it is difficult to believe, really, that she can go on and on and on, having her name tags everywhere on the board and being such a cancer thread - what is really happening, I was saying, she had took control of the thread and destroyed it.
But this subject of yours is interessing me, and I would like it to continue and I don't want it to be flooded. So this is why I post that.
Now, I don't know if our request will be understood and respected, I doubt it, I'm afraid it will provoke tantrum, an avalanche of fury like I'm used to see when a "please could you take others into REAL consideration" is asked from her.
Maybe she will fake to act nice to try to charm you and show the world that I am a damn fool. Great! Go ahead, if the thread could continue without pollution - without the cancer that grudge it. (Or maybe someday she will become really mature and capable of real kind behaviors with others, everything is possible).
But now the important thing is : if the flood continue, even if you kindly ask for order, the serious participants have to ignore the flooding (which is called "don't feed the trolls - they will finish to search for reaction elsewhere) and act like if the thread contains only serious postings. We have to naviguate taking care not to hit and "iceberg" and everything will be find. OK? Please don't stop the thread.
DBCohen like you said, there is a culture of forums and what you withnessed is called "flooding" a thread in order to take the control of it. I tried to show with humour to participants what was happening, which is obvious for someone who follows the thread like you stressed it, but maybe not for others.
I'll make it short. Lizzy thinks that this forum is her personal play ground and does try - and succeed 99.9% because she deserves all this time and energy to control the board. If she can not obtain all the attention she tries to destroy the thread and in any case she attacks the participants who don't comply to her will. A real cancer for any subjects as she has to be the main subject of everything and everyone. She has accomplices sometimes with their consent, sometime with their submission, but sometimes, by pure manipulation. Others don't react not to be in trouble when they meet her during their GTs.
But most of the time, everybody let go because nobody has the time and the energy to stop her - and she has all the time and energy to be here as long as she wish. There is a kind of tolerance to keep peace.
It is like in these hotels in the south you know where they can't get rid ot the coackroches so they feed them a little milk.
But the problem here is that she always find newcomers that she can lure and by the time the person can know what is happening - it is difficult to believe, really, that she can go on and on and on, having her name tags everywhere on the board and being such a cancer thread - what is really happening, I was saying, she had took control of the thread and destroyed it.
But this subject of yours is interessing me, and I would like it to continue and I don't want it to be flooded. So this is why I post that.
Now, I don't know if our request will be understood and respected, I doubt it, I'm afraid it will provoke tantrum, an avalanche of fury like I'm used to see when a "please could you take others into REAL consideration" is asked from her.
Maybe she will fake to act nice to try to charm you and show the world that I am a damn fool. Great! Go ahead, if the thread could continue without pollution - without the cancer that grudge it. (Or maybe someday she will become really mature and capable of real kind behaviors with others, everything is possible).
But now the important thing is : if the flood continue, even if you kindly ask for order, the serious participants have to ignore the flooding (which is called "don't feed the trolls - they will finish to search for reaction elsewhere) and act like if the thread contains only serious postings. We have to naviguate taking care not to hit and "iceberg" and everything will be find. OK? Please don't stop the thread.
You think you are going to get further by excluding but you are in for a bis surprise.DBCohen wrote:A request:
I bring this up reluctantly, but it seems to me that I must do it at this point. I’ve just went again through pages 10-13 of this thread, and I found precious little in them about Book of Mercy and a lot about Everything Else. I don’t want to spoil the party, but I really don’t see why it has to take place in this room. There are thousands other rooms on this Forum, and anyone can open a new one whenever they wish.
Lately I realized that I needed to change directions and so to better understand what I might be good at I put myself through a battery of aptitude tests. When I was young I usually scored high in the math area so I expected somewhat the same results.lizzytysh wrote: I, too, would love to see how others' prayers have been. What is more personal than a person's prayers? I hope the resistance is not so tightly bound that it won't happen.
The test are designed in such a way that you are given 5 minutes to answer a large number of questions which means that you usually leave a very large number of questions unanswered. Much to my surprise when I got to the word-knowledge test I finished the complete test with time to spare. I thought I probably got a lot of wrong answers but again to my surprise I had only one wrong answer and that was on the word "pray"
The correct word association was "religion" and I had answered "ask". I intend to write to the company who produces the tests and request that they consider that my answer might be just as valid. In my mind it is even more so for what is prayer if it not a yearning for understanding. It doesn't seem to me to have anything to do with religion with it's set dogmas and questions already answered.
Jack
There are only a few (3 to be exact) of us who are still here (everyone else left the forum) who still dare to stand up to Lyz. Everything Tchoc is saying about her is correct.
I too have nothing to add to this very interesting thread, but was throroughly enjoying reading it, even though much of it was going over my head. It was a rare opportunity to see such intellect in action and maybe learn a little something. Seriously.
So, I hope this thread does revert back to its original theme.
Lizz needs no pleading to post anywhere.
See: Everything Tchoc wrote. It is the fast track to learning this about Lyz on your own. Do yourself a favor.
Please, as you was...
Laurie in Alaska
I too have nothing to add to this very interesting thread, but was throroughly enjoying reading it, even though much of it was going over my head. It was a rare opportunity to see such intellect in action and maybe learn a little something. Seriously.
So, I hope this thread does revert back to its original theme.
Lizz needs no pleading to post anywhere.
See: Everything Tchoc wrote. It is the fast track to learning this about Lyz on your own. Do yourself a favor.
Please, as you was...
Laurie in Alaska
I was hoping that Simon would return soon, but I decided to go on.
It appears to me that the narrator is beginning to particularly recognize the nature of the lower animal. That freedom accorded Adam prior to the fall-freedom to copulate, freedom to trick another using power, freedom to roam from city to city, -"isn't worth a dime."-to use a phrase from another Cohen song.
The narrator has strayed so far from the higher realms that the misery doesn't even reside in the heart, but the throat. Again, I call attention to the careful distinction between the Law and justice and that unnamed longing for mercy.
Note also the cadence, the careful litany of "Then the exile closed...Then the punishment began...then world amnesia...then I was judged etc." that places this in progressive temporal terms. Note then, how the narrator echoes Isiah with the "How long" questions.
I take particular poetic pleasure from the line, "Give this thought a
master, and this ghost a stone." The justaposition of the physicality of master and stone with the nebulous nature of thought and ghost. I think this points us toward whatever "resolution" that may be ultimately found.
One last observation that struck me. I find that the imagery of the narrator watching the bathing on the roof (which of course, is echoed in Hallelujah) and the imagery of the narrator in the song "Boogie Street"-
There is much rich stuff here. Happy New Year everybody!
Joe
I have a few observations which may certainly prove to be wrongheaded in light of information from Doron or Simon regarding either the Jewish or Zen interpretations.Psalm I-7
I pushed my body from
one city to another, one rooftop to another, to see a
woman bathing. I heard myself grunt. I saw my fingers
glisten. Then the exile closed around me. Then the
punishment began; a small aimless misery, not in the
heart, in the throat, then the removal of the body, the
birds singing to a treasure of garbage, then world
amnesia, a ghost bathing and shitting. Then I was
judged by the face of one I tricked. Then the fear of jus-
tice. Then, for the ten thousandth time, the reality of
sin. Then the Law shining, then the memory of what it
was, too far, too clean to be grasped. Then I longed to
long for you again, to know the ache of separation.
How long must I be uninhabited by a soul? How long
sustain the mutiny of this denial? O master of my
breath, create a man around these nostrils, and gather
my heart toward the gravity of your name. Form me
again with an utterance and open my mouth with your
praise. There is no life but in affirming you, no world to
walk on but the one which you create. Forgive me with
these hours and this midnight. Give this thought a
master, and this ghost a stone. And do not let the
demons boast about your mercy.
It appears to me that the narrator is beginning to particularly recognize the nature of the lower animal. That freedom accorded Adam prior to the fall-freedom to copulate, freedom to trick another using power, freedom to roam from city to city, -"isn't worth a dime."-to use a phrase from another Cohen song.
The narrator has strayed so far from the higher realms that the misery doesn't even reside in the heart, but the throat. Again, I call attention to the careful distinction between the Law and justice and that unnamed longing for mercy.
Note also the cadence, the careful litany of "Then the exile closed...Then the punishment began...then world amnesia...then I was judged etc." that places this in progressive temporal terms. Note then, how the narrator echoes Isiah with the "How long" questions.
I take particular poetic pleasure from the line, "Give this thought a
master, and this ghost a stone." The justaposition of the physicality of master and stone with the nebulous nature of thought and ghost. I think this points us toward whatever "resolution" that may be ultimately found.
One last observation that struck me. I find that the imagery of the narrator watching the bathing on the roof (which of course, is echoed in Hallelujah) and the imagery of the narrator in the song "Boogie Street"-
to be quite significant. It seems to represent a movement away from the solitary and observational to the participatory and fulfilled that also points to a resolution (although it is contained more in the body of Leonard's work rather than simply in "Book of Mercy."And O my love, I still recall
The pleasures that we knew;
The rivers and the waterfall,
Wherein I bathed with you.
Bewildered by your beauty there,
I’d kneel to dry your feet.
By such instructions you prepare
A man for Boogie Street.
There is much rich stuff here. Happy New Year everybody!
Joe
Why, Jack, why do you adopt this attitude and talk about exclusion? Who wishes to exclude you? All I said is that I and some likeminded people wish to hold a focused discussion on BoM; everyone, including you, Jack, are invited to contribute when they have something to say about the part of the book we are discussing; I only ask that matters other than the discussion of the text will be posted on a parallel thread. Is this really asking too much? Isn’t there room enough for you on this huge Forum? I’ve seen you starting new threads when you needed to, so what’s the big deal? Why can’t you respect my simple request?You think you are going to get further by excluding but you are in for a bis surprise.
I am new to this Forum, and perhaps I was a bit naïve (it is also the first Internet forum I’ve ever joined). I was therefore shocked and amazed by the two recent postings by Tchoco about Lizzy. I now read back over the thread and realized that those feelings, that earlier I thought were expressed in jest, are in fact serious. On this thread, and a few others I’ve read, I found no reason for this attack, but, as I said, I’m new here, and Laurie is saying the same things now. I must say that I’ve never expected such a confrontation, and now that I have came upon it, I feel I lost some of the pleasure I had in carrying on with this forum. I thought we are united by our love to the great work of Leonard Cohen; now I see that this love can devise, not only unite. Or perhaps love’s got nothing to do with it. I’ll have to consider how to go on.
Dear Doron,
At some point our good friend Tom will edit this and post it on his excellent Croatian website. He will help separate the wheat from the chaff. Everyone here is a good person-it is only our incomplete nature that causes this apparent disharmony-very much like the issues that bother our narrator in "Book of Mercy."
All good things,
Joe
At some point our good friend Tom will edit this and post it on his excellent Croatian website. He will help separate the wheat from the chaff. Everyone here is a good person-it is only our incomplete nature that causes this apparent disharmony-very much like the issues that bother our narrator in "Book of Mercy."
All good things,
Joe
Dear Joe,
Thanks for introducing I.7, and for your very kind words, which I hope will help to bring back some sanity to this thread. Laurie, thank you very much too. I guess I should give it another shot. Let’s put aside all personal allegations, and try to create something meaningful together.
Here’s what I have to say about I.7 at this moment. Putting it in very general terms, in psalms 1-3 the narrator found himself lost and bewildered; in 4-6 there is a gradual process of affirming his heritage and attempting to revive it in his life. In 6 he came out of defeat almost triumphant (“In utter defeat I came to you and you received me with a sweetness I had not dared to remember”). Here we see him falling a step back again: he is not yet redeemed of his exile, the concrete exile of the body (and here he also hints at general Jewish history, in which “exile” is one of the most powerful and charged terms), and the exile of the soul. He is full of self-loathing due to actually-committed sins (confessing to tricking someone and fearing their judgment). And then he rediscovers the Law (in capital L this time), which is the Torah, shining at him, but it too as a far away memory, too clean to be grasped in this dirty life, but still, it leads him in the direction he had forgotten, and he “longed to long for you again”.
The repeated words “How long…” reminded Joe of Isaiah, but to me they were more evocative of the Psalms, for example, 13:1-2 (verses 2-3 in the Hebrew Bible): “How long, O LORD; will You ignore me forever? How long will You hide Your face from me? How long will I have cares on my mind, grief in my heart all day? How long will my enemy have the upper hand?” (this time I quote from the Jewish Publication Society’s translation).
The line “…open my mouth with your praise” is also taken from Psalms (and from each of the three Jewish daily prayers), 51:15 (V. 17 in the Hebrew Bible): “O LORD, open my lips, and let my mouth declare Your praise”. Just as he did in the end of I.6, the narrator here speaks in the language most familiar to him when he’s trying to pray and speak to God: the language of the Jewish prayer.
The first half of the previously quoted sentence, “Form me again with an utterance”, refers to the first chapter of Genesis, in which God creates the world and everything in it through utterances. The speaker here seems to be asking God to recreate him from scratch, so he will have a new beginning and a clean slate. He seems to be going a step beyond Ezekiel, in a verse of which I was reminded here for obvious reasons, if you reread the last sentences of this psalm. The verse from Ezekiel 36:26 is: “And I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit into you: I will remove the heart of stone from your body and give you a heart of flesh”.
Eventually, in spite of all doubts and pain, this psalm seems to end on a note of hope. Like Joe I find here many beautiful poetic images, and I haven’t said anything yet about the bathing woman…
I also have some questions for you, Joe. First, when you speak about Adam “prior to the fall” don’t you actually mean after the fall? And second, where do you find here “the careful distinction between the Law and justice”? I’m looking forward to our continued discussion, and thanks again for everything.
Doron
Thanks for introducing I.7, and for your very kind words, which I hope will help to bring back some sanity to this thread. Laurie, thank you very much too. I guess I should give it another shot. Let’s put aside all personal allegations, and try to create something meaningful together.
Here’s what I have to say about I.7 at this moment. Putting it in very general terms, in psalms 1-3 the narrator found himself lost and bewildered; in 4-6 there is a gradual process of affirming his heritage and attempting to revive it in his life. In 6 he came out of defeat almost triumphant (“In utter defeat I came to you and you received me with a sweetness I had not dared to remember”). Here we see him falling a step back again: he is not yet redeemed of his exile, the concrete exile of the body (and here he also hints at general Jewish history, in which “exile” is one of the most powerful and charged terms), and the exile of the soul. He is full of self-loathing due to actually-committed sins (confessing to tricking someone and fearing their judgment). And then he rediscovers the Law (in capital L this time), which is the Torah, shining at him, but it too as a far away memory, too clean to be grasped in this dirty life, but still, it leads him in the direction he had forgotten, and he “longed to long for you again”.
The repeated words “How long…” reminded Joe of Isaiah, but to me they were more evocative of the Psalms, for example, 13:1-2 (verses 2-3 in the Hebrew Bible): “How long, O LORD; will You ignore me forever? How long will You hide Your face from me? How long will I have cares on my mind, grief in my heart all day? How long will my enemy have the upper hand?” (this time I quote from the Jewish Publication Society’s translation).
The line “…open my mouth with your praise” is also taken from Psalms (and from each of the three Jewish daily prayers), 51:15 (V. 17 in the Hebrew Bible): “O LORD, open my lips, and let my mouth declare Your praise”. Just as he did in the end of I.6, the narrator here speaks in the language most familiar to him when he’s trying to pray and speak to God: the language of the Jewish prayer.
The first half of the previously quoted sentence, “Form me again with an utterance”, refers to the first chapter of Genesis, in which God creates the world and everything in it through utterances. The speaker here seems to be asking God to recreate him from scratch, so he will have a new beginning and a clean slate. He seems to be going a step beyond Ezekiel, in a verse of which I was reminded here for obvious reasons, if you reread the last sentences of this psalm. The verse from Ezekiel 36:26 is: “And I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit into you: I will remove the heart of stone from your body and give you a heart of flesh”.
Eventually, in spite of all doubts and pain, this psalm seems to end on a note of hope. Like Joe I find here many beautiful poetic images, and I haven’t said anything yet about the bathing woman…
I also have some questions for you, Joe. First, when you speak about Adam “prior to the fall” don’t you actually mean after the fall? And second, where do you find here “the careful distinction between the Law and justice”? I’m looking forward to our continued discussion, and thanks again for everything.
Doron
"love" police
Joe, a pleasure to read your input on the new Psalm - which I've yet to read (it's a long one isn't it) - thank you for posting it, and I am looking forward to having a look myself.
From a Shiva/Hindu perspective the throat is the place where we are true to ourselves by communication, I'm not sure if this bares relevance but it was something that occurred to me whilst reading your addition.
I'm new to this site and this style of internet communication, but am finding my stride now I think and I hope Doron is too, you are wrong about the love bit there Doron, it never corrupts; but love is something we can only ever hope to strive towards, it's a perfection and we are human, you'd agree? I understand where you are coming from though, this is about sharing ideas, and I am looking forward to reading yours on this new Psalm.
I've already Happy New Yeared, but I hope everyone is in good health.
Cheers.
Or you could post them whilst I am writing, cheeky! Ty, look forward to reading over it.
From a Shiva/Hindu perspective the throat is the place where we are true to ourselves by communication, I'm not sure if this bares relevance but it was something that occurred to me whilst reading your addition.
I'm new to this site and this style of internet communication, but am finding my stride now I think and I hope Doron is too, you are wrong about the love bit there Doron, it never corrupts; but love is something we can only ever hope to strive towards, it's a perfection and we are human, you'd agree? I understand where you are coming from though, this is about sharing ideas, and I am looking forward to reading yours on this new Psalm.
I've already Happy New Yeared, but I hope everyone is in good health.
Cheers.

Or you could post them whilst I am writing, cheeky! Ty, look forward to reading over it.
He has certainly taken a step back, remarkable, although this could possibly be in a more reflective light. There is a middle eastern feel to this Psalm, and I don't know if that is reflective in other area's, but I'd guess with the roof tops and the shitting references, that this Psalm finds it's centre of reflections from this geographical point. Perhaps it is with this in mind that he refers to the demons who praise Mercy but know not of it.
It is highly charged sexually, which is a problem for all of us, and I doubt LC is any exception; I think the long for longing could be determined to indicate both his fall from spirituality and as his pervasive sexuality.
The grunting and the glistening are very obviously sexual, but then it seems to be derived from one woman. Is this the woman he still loves, or is he trying to deny love as simply passion to find his Spiritual Soul, perhaps something that he has grasped that won't be returned, as certainly seems to be the case here, a lot of pleading but no banana's.
Is his exile self inflicted? Or is it from his lover? A small aimless misery again sounds like a lovers jilting, so perhaps the throat reference does refer to his inability to speak up over his emotions, the removal of the body the body that he desires to be with.
The ten thousandth time the reality of sin, I think it's definitely in regards to falling for a woman and losing his spiritual path. Don't know about the middle eastern part, was just a thought, after rereading it I can't really find much to back that up. I do like it Doron, although was shocked by the language!
Cheers.
It is highly charged sexually, which is a problem for all of us, and I doubt LC is any exception; I think the long for longing could be determined to indicate both his fall from spirituality and as his pervasive sexuality.
The grunting and the glistening are very obviously sexual, but then it seems to be derived from one woman. Is this the woman he still loves, or is he trying to deny love as simply passion to find his Spiritual Soul, perhaps something that he has grasped that won't be returned, as certainly seems to be the case here, a lot of pleading but no banana's.
Is his exile self inflicted? Or is it from his lover? A small aimless misery again sounds like a lovers jilting, so perhaps the throat reference does refer to his inability to speak up over his emotions, the removal of the body the body that he desires to be with.
The ten thousandth time the reality of sin, I think it's definitely in regards to falling for a woman and losing his spiritual path. Don't know about the middle eastern part, was just a thought, after rereading it I can't really find much to back that up. I do like it Doron, although was shocked by the language!
Cheers.
Yes, the language is a bit shocking, but LC was never ashamed of his earthly side, even when he was aiming at heaven (have you read Beautiful Losers?). Perhaps it is also the influence of Zen (Simon, where are you? I’m reluctantly usurping your throne, but I’ll gladly relinquish it once you’re back). Consider the following Zen story, for example:
“A monk asked the Zen master Joshu: What does it mean being pure? Joshu said: to shit a mountain on a clear plain. The monk said: Master, please speak clearly. Joshu said: get lost, you and your nonsense”.
Or this haiku by Buson:
The high priest / having a shit / in a withered field
Please excuse my French (or my Japanese, in this case). I guess the idea is that if you don’t divide the world into pure and impure, nothing would defile it. But this is very much Zen thought, which for us, unenlightened westerners, is not easy to adopt.
“A monk asked the Zen master Joshu: What does it mean being pure? Joshu said: to shit a mountain on a clear plain. The monk said: Master, please speak clearly. Joshu said: get lost, you and your nonsense”.
Or this haiku by Buson:
The high priest / having a shit / in a withered field
Please excuse my French (or my Japanese, in this case). I guess the idea is that if you don’t divide the world into pure and impure, nothing would defile it. But this is very much Zen thought, which for us, unenlightened westerners, is not easy to adopt.