Irving Layton

[PhilMader]

tchocolatl ,
I looked over the links to the French language announcements of Layton's death, and found them all worthy, with the exception of one photo. Cyberpresse.ca showed a horrific photo of Layton, in his last days no doubt, sitting in his wheelchair with an indescribable look of despair.

Nonetheless, the "branchez-Vous" article is an impressive in-depth look at Layton's holocaust poetry.
The link to the appropriate French page of the National Archives of Canada (now Library and ARchives Canada) points to the Seymour Mayne Collection on which I worked in my capacity as descriptive archivist in the field of audio-visual records - and, yes, I do remember an interview with Irving Layton on reel to reel audio tape.
It was also good to see the Government of Quebec lauding the poet
on its international relations page.
And TV5, the international French language television network, has some really meaningful notes on Layton on its literary news page.

again, thanks for the link, tchocolatl

best, Phil

[Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan]

Phil,
No Problem. I enjoyed, and in a way could relate to your post more than I mentioned.

Your prose gave me no trouble imagining your father, or other working-class immigrants trudging up and down frozen stairs, basically, I'm assuming, so that maybe their children wouldn't have to.

I'm reading a book that deals with the immigrant experience in America and what you wrote made me think a lot about that. One group of immigrants would start to get a leg-up and then turn around and discriminate against the new ethnicities that arrived after them. Seemingly forgetting the hardships they, themselves had recently faced.

The part that I could relate to in the poem and it was just my impression based on what you had previously written about your father, was it seemed like you were looking back on it and realizing that nature of childhood lends itself to us not realizing the struggles that our parents went through so that we could be carefree at that age.
Personally, I had a certain appreciation of it when I was a kid, but I have a much deeper one now. Now I see him, my father, and his body is breaking down, partially from so many years of extremely hard work, and realize that the challenges I face are nothing compared to what his were. Also, like I hinted at earlier, he made a lot of personal sacrifices so that I haven't had to. I've worked extremely hard. But my early life has been idyllic compared to what his was.

Also, one point that you made in the poem is something that I hadn't ever thought of until I read your post. That was, the sadness as the child leaves the hard-earned house. I don't know if that was how you worded it, so forgive me there. But I didn't think of it when I moved out of my parents at 19, and I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it.

With your prose and poem you were far more eloquent about this than I have ever attempted to be. That is a great salute to your father. Especially that you recognize, appreciate, and have helped me recognize a few more things about the matter. You have talent.

"...and all your work is right before your eyes."

Best wishes,
Kevin.

[lizzytysh]

Yes, Kevin ~

Even though reconstructing their lives as a 'childless'/'child-free' couple is a challenge for both husband and wife, the "empty-nest syndrome" is almost, if not exclusively, assigned as a woman's experience, based on her having birthed and 'raised' a child, from the biological mother's perspective.

Yet, Phil has brought into focus how a father also experiences the emotional aspects of the emptiness of the household, when the last child has left... particularly when such a personal commitment of energy and hard work, toil on behalf of his children, has been made and met.


*************************


Having looked at the photograph you've referenced, Phil, why anyone would want to publish, at all, much less as the sole photo in the text of their article, such a picture showing Irving looking so deeply sad, resigned, desolate, and bereft of hope is beyond me. I hope the article portrayed him accurately, as he was in his productive life, as the photo itself is the antithesis. [The sense of gotten in observing and hearing about my former father-in-law, being cared for 24/7 by my former husband, is that at some 'emotional body' level, the person with Alzheimer's Disease is not oblivious to their radical and severe decline, and they are experiencing their own, deep sense of loss, of themselves and their world around them, the same as their loved ones.]

I had already noticed, immediately, in the text of Marche's 'obituary,' that the photo selected was one that could easily be viewed as Irving literally having his 'nose in the air,' in the sense of 'stubborn and arrogant,' by those who would choose to see it that way, reducing him to these characteristics and leaving with them the visual impression and summation of mere 'pompousness' [and who wouldn't be left with that impression, if they weren't already positively predisposed, through other means or sources], as opposed to seeing him as immersed in thought, or simply posing with an interesting profile. With so many dynamic photos to choose from, I feel this was by design, as re-enforcement to the many things, so inappropriate for anyone's obituary , already being said within it. As you've said, this stands as testament to the tragedy of 'Canada' 's abandonment ~ in this case, a final discounting and disowning ~ of one of their own... one of their greatest is the bitter irony.

~ Lizzy

[Tchocolatl]

Lz, The Catholic Church here and elsewhere did not do worst than Bush government in Irak (and elsewhere) for sure. (Or what the very religious conservative Jews are doing in Israel right now. If you are going there and you don't speak the language, they are rude with you. This is not my business, nor yours, but this is to show both sides of the reality). So. Please. Keep your sorrow for your own country. Also, you poured so much honey on the Pope JPII being a good man when he died, maybe you forgot that he was the chief of the Catholic Church? Or you did not know at the time? You are not to be stopped by your contradictions, but, you know. My face is getting red for you in shame, here. Catholic religion is not worst or better than another religion.

Thanks Phil. Re the schools and cie of this time, is true also. Like I said English speaking people were here for business. French were here in the name of their faith and the religion leaded lifes of everybody in those times. They wanted to convert the "savages" etc. . It was very important for them. For a time the education system was French and Catholic only and ruled by priests like all the French institutions - hospitals, etc. Times have changed a lot. The Révolution Tranquille changed all this.

You know I don't really care for this choice of language. It is the lack of respect for differences that annoys me. The rest I don't care. I go under the I'm OK-you're OK rule of this other Montréal's Jew : Leonard Berstein (which changed his name for Eric Berne and had this famous career in the USA).

Anyway, what could you expect from a "new world" etc. like I said earlier.

The melting pot is such an interesting phenomenon, though. Sometimes I think that if we can "make it" (peace) here despite and with all the differences between people, we can make it on the whole planet some day.

For Layton, Phil, don't worry too much. Times have changed, like I said, and we are living right now in a very politically correct environment (yourself would like to see only the perfect image of him, and perfection is not - not just impossible - but also is boring to death. Layton is OK, he is such a real human man in every ways). The times are not into protest songs etc. They prefer Bono who is a spoke person for the actions they want to do. But like Cohen said, his words will live forever. People are not stupid.

[lizzytysh]

Hello Tchocolatl ~

So. Please. Keep your sorrow for your own country.

My sorrow, Tchocolatl, does not know boundaries. No amount of imploring or number of "Please"s will change that. Nor will your artificial imposition of human boundaries, via borders, accomplish it. I generally leave the criticism of other countries [this typically arises with regard to politics/religion] to the citizens of the countries themselves. However, there are times when something is so egregious as to warrant rage, sorrow, and comment, regardless of whether I am a citizen of that country.
In various ways, the situation here is very close to home.

Also, you poured so much honey on the Pope JPII being a good man when he died, maybe you forgot that he was the chief of the Catholic Church? Or you did not know at the time?

Your sarcastic questions don't warrant comment beyond a distanced noting of them. Pope John Paul II was renowned for being unique, as a Pope and as a man, in his humanness, compassion, and multitudinous, other ways. I do not judge a religion by one representative. Nor am I oblivious to difficult issues for me, within a particular religion, due to one representative. My intense admiration and respect for Pope John Paull II, which you describe as "poured so much honey," which I expressed at his death, was and remains fully warranted. Amongst many other things, he visited and forgave, face-to-face, the man who attempted to take his life. This is of Corrie ten Boom magnitude.

You are not to be stopped by your contradictions, but, you know. My face is getting red for you in shame, here.

Contradictions are part of the human condition and are not cause for apology, much less shame. Do not feel shame for me when I have no reason to feel it for myself.

Catholic religion is not worst or better than another religion.

In that I know you have been here since I have, I also know that you are fully aware of the problems I've noted for myself, with regard to the fundamentalist sect of Christianity; or with the aberrations of Islam. You, further, are well aware of my long-standing stance on Bush and Iraq. There is language snobbery throughout the world, including France. Even in South Florida it exists, with regard to Cuban and other Hispanic immigrants.

It is the lack of respect for differences that annoys me. The rest I don't care. I go under the I'm OK-you're OK rule...

This should be testament to your own understanding, or at least acceptance, of my sorrow, regardless from which, different country a person 'disowning of their own' by Canada should not be what's focused upon here. As I recall, you were quite aware of my stance regarding the abandonment by the U.S. governmental entitities of its desperate and needy citizens after Hurricane Katrina. As closely-aligned neighbours, both geographically and, to the chagrin of a number of Canadians, 'politically,' I will without apology express my feelings as to what was done to Irving Layton in this sorrowful circumstance; and of my limited, albeit just enlightened, understanding of how the Catholic Church played a significant role with Jewish people in Canada.

Sometimes I think that if we can "make it" (peace) here despite and with all the differences between people, we can make it on the whole planet some day.

A good beginning is the acceptance of outrage, sorrow, and understanding for one another, regardless of where, on the whole planet, we may live.


~ Elizabeth

Edit ~ Regarding religion, you'll recall that I've also lauded some Fundamentalist Christian pastors I've known, though I choose not to follow that faith, either, for reasons unique to it. In fact, I've expressed positive feelings regarding the Catholic faith, in certain aspects, where my feelings are not positive regarding the Fundamentalist Christian one.

[Tchocolatl]

Oh. I forgot that nothing can be right unless are saying it is, Lz.

I may answer you later. Maybe. Maybe not. For now I'm buzy.

[lizzytysh]

Not much of a response to my well-reasoned one, Tchocolatl ~ but, since debate is not the purpose of this thread, it's just as well. Of course, there is no such 'rule,' as that which you suggest; however, your additional sarcasm is duly noted . I simply disagree with what you've said, and am explaining how and why.

~ Lizzy

[Tchocolatl]

Never mind Lz. Or the men in white will have to come here for you again. As usual you want to win and you see only what you want to see in order to "win". Relax, dear I let you "win". You win Lz. You win. OK? You can relax. I'm sure PhilMader never met a person so compassionate and loving and caring. For me, I'm all bad bad girl, because I treat him like a man and not like a poor stupid dumbo. It is the second time that this arrived. Once with Tom&Jurica, now with Phil.

You know what? Sometimes you represent to me some perverted parts of Catholic religion : the fascination for the sufferings so much. If there is no reason to suffer you invent some. Including me being sooooo bad. And the damned pity. Not compassion, pity. Wich is perverted compassion. Which make people weak for ever in order that "stong" one like you can arrive and feel great to take them in pity.

Oh! boy! I'm afraid to receive an avalanche of posts and to be harassed all over the board again, now.


***

This said, I will quote a mostly intelligent and sensitive asian young woman about the problem of melting pot : it demands a lot of maturity to deal with people who came from countries wounded by wars, because they are highly traumatised, it is a difficult thing. That should be handle with care.

I add : "care" is not "pity".

It is possible to go over wounds, and it is easier when people around taking care. Taking care, really care. Not scratch the wounds to make it bleed and then put a plaster on it and feel great for being so "good". It may be funny for the "nurse" but there is a name for this, and it is no pretty.

I'm sorry Irving Layton if I was not fiery enough. I was sincere though.

[lizzytysh]

Tchocolatl ~

This thread has been sullied enough by disrespect for Irving. It doesn't need to be continued, with more, negative tangents; these totally unrelated to him. How you feel about me is how you feel about me. Period. It's a non-issue. No men in white have ever arrived here, for me or anyone else, nor will they. However, if you wish to continue this discussion [as you apparently do, given the additional paragraphs and comments beyond your first three words... and subsequent ones] elsewhere, there's a section in which you may feel free to do so. It's called "Everything Else" ~ in fact, you could simply copy-and-paste this onto a new thread there; ask Jarkko to delete this post, leaving your two sentences about Irving; and then trapse over and continue talking to yourself there. That's Plan A. Plan B is to follow your initial, three words here with meaningful action, in which this case would be, ironically, non-action. Not sure who you're thinking called you "all bad bad girl," but it wasn't me.

Have a good evening, Tchocolatl.

~ Lizzy

[Joe Way]

I sang of thighs
I sang of breasts
I sang of shoulders
soft and black as soot
white and soft as cloud
and of curved lips
from which kisses
felt like rose petals
or flew like birds
wilder and wilder
I sang
as I grew older
and my loins wrinkled
like the forehead of a sage

--

His wrinkled loins probably caused a few problems for his family and friends, but as Leonard says, it is his poems that bear remembering.

I came to Layton through Cohen so it is not the direct route like Dar has described (and dear, Dar, how I envy you for your contact with this great poet). It is fascinating for me to track the influences.

One of my earliest favorite Leonard songs was, "Take This Longing." The line, "Hungry as an archway, through which the troops have passed" taken in conjunction with his observation of "especially from the back" evokes so vividly the wonderful female form. We learn from one of Leonard's interviews how his first encounter with Garcia Lorca was his reading in the New Directions paperback version and the power that the lines describing the "thighs" that he compares to the "arches of Elvira."

As a young boy affected by the sexual nature of poetry, this imagery was indefatigable.

Delving back into Layton's work, we find this, in his poem, "The Day Aviva Came to Paris"-his paen to Aviva and her naked pubic hair-

All Paris radiates from Aviva's nest of hair
--Delicate hatchery of profound delights--
From her ever to be adored Arche de Triomphe!

It still brings me, always, always to the purient and sacred imagery of the human form.

Layton may have had his personal problems and the problems that he caused in his own circle, but as Goethe said, (and I have to defer to memory as I couldn't find the exact quote)-

The folly of man can be attributed to his epoch-his virtue belongs to himself.

Layton was born two months before my father in 1912. My father's life was too short (he died in 1963) and Layton's life was too long (the days of his Alzheimer's), but none of us can do more than nod toward the eternal. The word, the flesh made manifest, remains to humble us like a wild day forever present.

Joe

[PhilMader]

tchocolatl,
If you're trying to say no one is an angel and no one is a devil. I agree with you, but that doesn't stop me from expressing my life's experience, especially as it relates so closely to Irving Layton's. And I have no intention of doing so.
As far as I'm concerned this line of discussion has come to an end.
- Phil Mader

[PhilMader]

Joe Way,
What's the title of the poem you cite (unless I overlooked it)?
Btw, in a preface to his contribution to the anthology of love poems, (Dance With Desire), Layton claims he's written about 200-300 love poems in his career.

Also, here's a quote from Layton, illustrating how complex a man/writer he was.

" Poetry, by giving dignity and utterance to our distress, enables us to hope, makes compassion reasonable. "

- Phil

[PhilMader]

Kevin,
It's hugely gratifying to get a sense that one's poem has triggered some kind of personal insight or emotional connection in a reader.

While my father was living , due to certain underlying, unspoken frictions, I was not able to convey my gratitude to him. That poem was my way. On your side, you may have already been successful in conveying your appreciation. I hope so. That act would also be a poem, the stuff of life, real life poetry, in all its poetic dimension.

I sense that Irving Layton's poem below is also - in some small oblique manner - a way of saying to his mother... I understand what you went through and I thank you for being there. I believe the poem below is what dispatched the Italians into nominating Irving Layton for the Nobel Prize, a poem about La Mama on her deathbed.

Keine Lazarovitch 1870-1959

When I saw my mother's head on the cold pillow,
Her white waterfalling hair in the cheeks' hollows,
I thought, quietly circling my grief, of how
She had loved God but cursed extravagantly his creatures.

For her final mouth was not water but a curse,
A small black hole, a black rent in the universe,
Which damned the green earth, stars and trees in its stillness
And the inescapable lousiness of growing old.

And I record she was comfortless, vituperative,
Ignorant, glad, and much else besides; I believe
She endlessly praised her black eyebrows, their thick weave,
Till plagiarizing Death leaned down and took them for his mould.

And spoiled a dignity I shall not again find,
And the fury of her stubborn limited mind;
Now none will shake her amber beads and call God blind,
Or wear them upon a breast so radiantly.

O fierce she was, mean and unaccommodating;
But I think now of the toss of her gold earrings,
Their proud carnal assertion, and her youngest sings
While all the rivers of her red veins move into the sea

=======

Thanks for your feedback, Kevin

Phil

[PhilMader]

From the Canadian Jewish News, Jan. 11


Family friend and occasional visitor Rikee

Madoff said that the day before he died,

Layton “looked good, his face smooth and

calm.” He sat beside the piano as she

played old Yiddish songs for him.
posted by Tara Gowland at 1/11/2006

09:01:00 PM 0 comments

[tomsakic]

wilder and wilder
I sang
as I grew older
and my loins wrinkled
like the forehead of a sage

That's what I was thinking all these days. I remember when I took Recent Songs for the first time - those lines were so powerfull that I wanted to read Layton for a long time, until my ex-fiance, on one of her trip to US, brought me The Selected Poems of Irving layton (along with Matisse-Cohen book). Those were the nice days. But I never found *such* power like I did in those... That's usual with everything I guess. I remember I was showing Layton's book to some poets, friends fo mine; everybode commented that it's *very* close to Cohen's poetry. Maybe that's only English language, for foreign readers, but there's something very close in feeling, imagery, sexual passion, Jewishness, religious craziness. I think that Layton opened the way not only for Cohen, but he really was, like Moses Znaimer says, first Canadian rock star. From my perspective, it's hard to imagine poet driving the nation crazy on national TV's panel discussions on regular basis. It's actually hard to imagine such kind of public TV as CBC is.

One of my earliest favorite Leonard songs was, "Take This Longing." The line, "Hungry as an archway, through which the troops have passed" taken in conjunction with his observation of "especially from the back" evokes so vividly the wonderful female form. We learn from one of Leonard's interviews how his first encounter with Garcia Lorca was his reading in the New Directions paperback version and the power that the lines describing the "thighs" that he compares to the "arches of Elvira."

I agree. That's something extraordinary. Those lines from take This Longing are among best ever written. Not only because "especially from the back" but also "how close you sleep to me". That's where the real life is. But who can achieve that? So sad actually.


Again from Recent Songs booklet:

This cd is dedicated to my friend IRVING LAYTON, incomparable master of the inner language.

wilder and wilder

I sang

and my loins wronkled

like the forehead of the sage

-I.L.

I will never forget Layton in Rasky's The song of Leonard Cohen. When he appears under his window, shouting, then listening to The Window with enormous passion, then reading Leonard's Slowly I Married Her. He was pure energy. That's the only shot of him I've seen - unfortunately, still didn't find 1991 programme produced my Much More Music (and Moses Znaimer of course), in which Leonard and Layton, as I read, made great show, singing impromptu song about bananas, giving crazy answers etc. Stephen Scobie commented that wa smaybe the best broadcast about Cohen, and about Layton. I'd like to see it.