The Beautiful Loosers

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
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ForYourSmile
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Post by ForYourSmile »

About my site: I did an "English translation" thinking in this forum. Only it is an inventory of the things that I have been collecting of LC. (The link is down, in my signature).

Certainly, here is the space most adapted to speak about BL
Tchocolatl wrote: ...then without warning... well I can not tell and spoil the experience of people who had not read it yet.

I do not want to spoil Dylan's experience telling what he had not read it yet or creating prejudices that harm his own interpretation. But, you do not know how I want to share a couple of opinions with you of this book.
Tchocolatl wrote: I see the historical aspect on the novel. But not the jugdment of any event. And I think that you saw it also, 'cause you are mentioning it, but where "lost" because Mr. Cohen does not put a label "good" or "bad" on all the bloody story. He is just a witness. This is how it was. No judgment. Of course, we are used to take side, to identify good guys, bad guys. Not him. He is a reporter.
Since a good work of art must remain opened the understanding of the receiver. The author offers us situations, prominent figures, tells us a history and we receive an impact, probably only emotionally, or he will induce us to reflections. Today, from the Cohen's work, I dare to think and judge, because we are in a forum.
Tchocolatl wrote: The rape of Edith (I take this example among many others 'cause we previously wrote about it in another thread) is an image which describes what happened to the First Nations by Europeans during the colonization. Rough times, those times. If you go one day to Château Ramzay museum you'll see few interesting artefacts, paintings by a Sioux Chief. He was well aware that soon his traditonal ways of living will disapear and he was painting as much as he can about Sioux's ordinary ways of life to let the world know who they were.
...
For me Edith is a metaphor of what happened to the First Nations.
Yes, Edith is one of the last members of a tribe who always has lost and who has to disappear. Raped, humiliated, she decides to flee definitively with a gesture of protest. In this way, cultures like that have been conquered by colonizers who have massacred, violated, stolen their territories and have confined them in reservations, have exhibit to them in the triumphal parade and have chained and dressed in orange clothes. The worst thing, they have destroyed their culture, their values and they have turned them into poor beings, humiliated and ridiculous: it is necessary to show them this way to be able to say: "it is what is deserved, they are low".

Image

And Catherine Tekakwitha? Is she really another victim? Catherine belonged to the tribe Algonkin, Ottawa River Valley conquered by the Iroquois was captured and married to a chief Mohawk.She embraced the Christianity. Because of her faith she flee to a Christian village. She took vote of chastity and an exemplary lifestyle to the eyes of the Jesuits. Victim of the corporal punishments was weakening up to dying.

Cohen gives us this information across the documentation that a historian works. We see as the desire of this man towards this being of God, the Beautiful Catherine - in spite of her scarred face marked by an epidemic-, and how the obsession grows.

I want to be rigorous; a history very well relied on this perfectly constructed personage tormented by all these feelings. Also the Cohen's wonderful humor is present. To this point I can make responsible to the author.

But, he has presented the history. And the teenager who almost thirty years ago read this book was getting angry as the reading was advancing. Was Leonard's purpose this?

In my infancy, before Holy Week, they were forcing us to study dreadful "exemplary histories" of martyrs and I knew well the Christian Mystics, theirs desires to emulate Jesus' Calvary, methods of mortification and defeat the demon and the meat (sexual impulses). (I have to say that all this was generating in the children a great curiosity and insane morbidity.) This way, for my culture I could not surprise Catherine's narration.

I know that we must not judge with our eyes olds times. "Rough times, those times", Thoco says to us. But I cannot avoid point with my accusing tremulous finger of anger the attitude of these Jesuits who had under his guidance Cathrine and they did not avoid her cruel sacrifice. They attended it and gave to her the information to do it. The description of the element used to torturer - I do not know the English word - it's the same one used for some fanatic Catholics still today. And once died they exploited her without shame to advance with his Mission and his power.

Religious fanaticism. Volunteer? For love? I cannot accept this sacrifice. :evil:
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Post by Tchocolatl »

Wow. A lot of matter, here, FYS. I could go and write pages again :lol:

I'll come back, 'cause I have (past :oops: ) "dead lines" to respect over here, first.

I'll just say one thing : when two (or more) cultures are in contact, even in a war, even if there is (apparently) a winner and a loser, they are entangled for the best and the worst, in reality. And no one knows which one has the most powerful impact on the other one, in the long run.

I'll come back for the rest. I wish you go on, guys, with this discussion! :D
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Post by ForYourSmile »

Thanks, Tchocolatl; yes, the Romans adopted the Greek culture. But hardly ever it has been like that. Now, I wait for more. :wink:
Linda_lakeside wrote:Yes, Leonard seems to be backing off a bit on BL. There was a time when he didn't count Favourite Game as a novel - likening it to an 'efficient little machine'. When he spoke of his novel(s) he only referred to BL. As in 'I have my albums and I have my novel' (singular).
Interesting. Still I had not realized of little importance with Favourite Game appears in his work. Leonard Cohen's success begins really with Flowers For Hitler, BL and Suzanne. The Favourite Game is previous and remains eclipsed by the effort of BL so much it is its creation as in its promotion.
Linda_lakeside wrote:You did not pick the easiest book to read (you did read Favourite Game, did not you - far dwells accessible).

I agree. It is an almost autobiographical book. A book that speaks about adolescence and that I recommended to my daughters, but they have not read it.
Tom Sakic wrote:Cohendrix, speaking about criticism you'd prefer: I tend more to newer approaches. Did you read Michael Ondaatje's 1970' Leonard Cohen. I bought it recently & don't like it. The book was writen before structuralism and poststructuralism came in, and it's done in old-fashioned way of poetry criticism. He keeps saying "Cohen this, Cohen that", "this line is good", "that less-successfull poem" - I mean, there's no such things anymore! Who can say "this writing is good, this is bad". Where come the legitimation for such evaluation from. It was usual in academia until 20 years ago, but now, it's dead approach. There's the prominent question of cannon. There is postmodernism, postfeminism, postcolonialism and queer aproach. There's post-everything. There's no common ground anymore. We today write about women authors and when someone says "How her work can be equally worth as Faulkner's", we say it is worth because it is about women's liberation. ....
Absolutely in agreement, also with the whole post. Every time I am interested less the critics and their labels "post-everything". Or when they say, " this line is good". Is it a good line for me? Nowadays I do not even agree with the Cohen's critique to BL :lol: .
Cohen wrote:I thank you for your interest in this odd collection of jazz riffs, pop-art jokes, religious kitsch and muffled prayer...
I see a relation between these words and his hard critiques to the Age of Aquarius.
Tom Sakic wrote:...as one Croatian critic wrote in 1996, when BL were translated: "There are many facets of Leonard Cohen. This Leonard Cohen probably doesn't exist anymore, and that old, wise man in zen monastery probably can't recognize him."
The persons we can change, but the big works remain with the time. When I hear that a thing has not resisted the pass of time, when a cultural movement is mentioned scornfully, I cannot share it, though LC says it. There is something of loss of love for the past, or a lack of self-acceptance.

Really, I am an out of fashion well refugee in the old times 8) .
Tom Sakic wrote:it's good oportunity for excusing the chapters which still offens "small-bourgeois" and middle-class minds (rape, Hitler, sex, homosexuality). Remember the Mrs Chow incident in Cana Raeds few months ago? That speaks much about the impression the book has on some readers.
I think that it is good to offend the "small-bourgeois" :P . (I do not know the Mrs Chow incident.)
Oscar Wilde wrote:There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written or badly written.
(Sorry, Tchoco, I know, this is a too famous quote for you, but I think it works in this history)

I do not have shame in to say that I admire Charles Bukowsky, Henry Miller, D.H. Lawrence (my darling Lawrence) and the own Wilde, and Cohen. They all did wonderful literature that offended those who never deserved to read it.
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Post by linda_lakeside »

FYS,

I've enjoyed your look into BL, both you and Tchoco are having a very interesting discussion. Here is my quote, copied from the previous page:
Nope. You didn't pick the easiest book to read (you did read Favourite Game, didn't you - far more accessible).
Thanks for your insight - I'm sure Dylan will find it interesting as well.

Regards,
Linda.
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Post by tomsakic »

Great thread we have here! I like it. Many interesting insights, ForYourSmile. Interesting childhood also. Very Spanish, I would say :wink: Jesus. Not wonder that Almodovar made such career.

Mrs Chow incident: this Spring there was anual panel discussion by Canadian television, titled Canada Reads 2005. Five great Canadian novels are chosen, five speakers (one books gets one defender), moderator, and the contest begin. Only one book remains as Canada Reads 2005 - an that book will get publicity, mabye new prints, increase of loaning in libraries etc. Anyway, there were Margaret Atwood's Oryx and Crake, Beautiful Losers, and three other novels unknown outside of Canada. Cohen was out of game on very first day. Mrs Chow - the city counselor of Toronto I believe - said some stuff which I - the admirer of William Burroughs - found very entertaining. Like "There is a rape in the book. I was upset", or "I don't nobody feels what means to be raped", and "There's no any trace of hope in that book, it is depressed, and we wanna to show parth to our children". So they voted the book out.

I like your "anti-peti-bourgeois" taste:-) It was funny that Mrs Chow was so upset, like she never heard of Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Burroughs, Miller, Artaud, Mailer, etc, and particularly it wa sinteresting because that was th same public image the book got in 1966 when it was published. So, altghough it seems outdated to speak about "antibourgeois" literature and literature of shocking, it seems it's still needed in many places. Maybe not in Greenwich Village or Mont Parnasse or at1 humanity arts colleges or in places where we read and learned such things, but in wider context yes, obviously on public TV and city coulselor's offices. That woman only showed lack of education, particularly of the way in which she should read literature, and much petit-bourgeois mind.

The panelist was defending Cohen the day after the novel dropped out (Chow attacked him because of his attitude to women - obviously she thnks he's a rapist): the novel is, said he, "ecstatic, brilliant and hymn-like".

Anyway, I suggest you to read the original thread: viewtopic.php?t=3615&start=0 (name: so so Sad News). There are many Tchoco's other insights :wink:

"Let these 'judges' read nice comforting poetry, and smirk with the rest of the flappy liars of the aquarian ages." - our follow-forumer Peter.
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Post by tomsakic »

Anyway, I wrote something earlier in that other BL thread - we are disintegrating into two threads...
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Post by tomsakic »

Back to Catherine's "victimisation" - what do you think then about that? I agree with For YourSmile - my country also has great history of right-wing Catholicism, and also think the same:
Religious fanaticism. Volunteer? For love? I cannot accept this sacrifice.
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Post by linda_lakeside »

Yes, it would appear that the two threads should be one thread. But, we now know, how difficult it is to move posts.

That Mrs. Chow was like the one portrayed as 'looking through the pornography - shocked that people look at that stuff'. Truly awful. I wonder if Rufus would have done a better job defending it (he dropped out last minute due to schedules).
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Post by tomsakic »

That reminds me on opanel discussion about pornography I attended, organised by Croatian feminist organisation. One film critic against 25 militant feminists. In the end, they labelled him "porn tapes seller" :? One feminist says how pornography is offensive to her: " I can't look up on newstand and see all those naked, opressed woman, as I go to buy my cigarettes every morning". So much about political correct behaviour. She could know that the smoking isn't good for her health, and she's anyhow posioning all people around her, and pornography is used in your own room, if you get what I mean.
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Post by Tchocolatl »

C'm'on people stop harassing this city concellor : BL is a shocking book, rape is a shocking subject and both was intended by the author. Some shocks are salutary. I mean to broke the silence about some reality everybody would prefer to keep under cover. See nothing. Hear nothing. Say nothing. Like those 3 monkeys. Pretty metaphor the monkeys one. :roll:

Much stuff, too much stuff to answer to everyting in one time! :D

Just few subjects, I'll touch for now : Religion History and Anthropology

FYS, I understand very well your feelings about the religion. The Quiet Revolution was a social event where people here get rid of the dictacts, the dogmas of the religion. It is an important part of this History in this story. On a personal scale those feelings that you have, I recognize in many people here, who were traumatized by the politic aspects of religion. We already "talked" about that when the Pope died, and I told you that for me, religion has not this dark side. For some people, here, you say G_d, you must as well say devil. Like for you. To finish with History, a new page of History is written today few women, doctors in theology and trained to be priests, will be sacred priests on the river today. The Vatican is not OK with this, but ey.

Antrhopology I don't have time now, finally. How interesting this thread is.


See you all guys (and more?) ! :D
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Post by tomsakic »

I agree, Tchoco, and there's nothing to be kept undercover, but I mean, who can be shocked by the book nowadays? This arenot times of Baudelaire or Flaubert or even Burroughs.

Or to put it forward: maybe the book cannot be shocking anymore because the literature lost its importance in days of other (multi)media... Rape will not be sloved as problem in the novel, but in society and in culture.
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Post by linda_lakeside »

Tchoco,

My "metaphor" of the mis-read post-coital, had nothing to do with the literal sexual images. It was more of a political/territorial rape. An injustice to the aboriginals. Now, at this point, it would take me pages to try and make all the associations that brought me to that remark. It was similar in thought to the remark made long ago about "Quebec as Dominatrix".

Linda.
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Post by ForYourSmile »

Really I should have read first "So So Sad News", very interesting. I do not want to wake up Tchoco's cats, again 8) , in that so happy end, but I want to give my opinion.

The phrase that Tom mentions of Peter seems to me perfect.

Mrs. Chow " the judge " is a politician and I suppose that she thinks that she has to be politically correct. I believe that she was looking for a correct book for any age in any shelf of a college, not a great novel as BL.

September_Cohen indicates other reasons that do BL a politically incorrect book:
- Vive le Québec Libre; the presence of this topic can be troublesome, though, I repeat, I do not see in the novel this ideology and this continues looking to me remarkable.
- The Catholic Church: I do not want to do of this my specialty. Well, according to my point of view there is today a reading of the "exemplary tales" of martyrdoms, especially that of Catherine, that demonstrate the frightful methods of The Church. I wonder if Cohen was waiting for this reflection.

As for the hope I am more of agreement with Thocolatl that with September_Cohen. I do not see hope in BL.

Yes Tom, those long evenings imagining the hell, those tortures, all kinds of mutilations, the imagines of horrifying types :evil: ... all that, and more, should have marked Almodovar and to me :roll: :lol: . Talking about pornography and Mrs. Chow: What is better to the children's eyes, all this violence and cruelty or two closed bodies making love?

Tchoco, it seems that you know my religious feelings of previous talks. At the same time as for a Polish the Catholic religion maybe is a symbol of freedom, for me it was the repression. Everything depends on how they work to survive and to continue growing. Really I do not sympathize with the Catholic hierarchy, though I know wonderful Catholics. But now this is not the matter.
Tell me, please. Which is your opinion of what the Jesuits did with Catherine? My dear Catherine :oops: .
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Post by Tchocolatl »

Linda, sometimes I wonder if you are reading the posts of other people before writing yours. But yes, you are doing, this is why you are able to joke all the time about them, are you? Ha! (if not let do as if it is).

FYS :

Tell me, please. Which is your opinion of what the Jesuits did with Catherine? My dear Catherine Embarassed .

This seems like a bad case of identification with the hero. :wink:

"it is necessary to show them this way to be able to say: "it is what is deserved, they are low"."

Exact. In order to destroy, first you have to deshumanize.

(You do this by saying they are awful to be this and that. If they are doing nothing wrong - but nobody is perfect and there is always something that can annoy - you harass as long as they lose patience, and then you say "ah-ah see their real nature, they are bad". Very easy. Very low, but very easy and popular. When you have "God" on your side, it is even more easy to say that those who are not worshiping your god are bad - whatever what the substitutes for "God" can be. But all this you already now, wise as you are. So I wasted your time, I guess)

Regarding the History, I'm sorry but right now, I feel like LC with the Chinese. Please accept the thesis of the poetical translation of the reality, as to take another example that was just used : the Constant tea that became tea and oranges that came all the way from China.

(BTW, there was - and still is - a China Town next to the Old Montreal (where Suzanne took him down) full of tea and oranges that came all the way from China.

As for Catherine, her case is postboned again, I'm afraid. 8)

Tm. Yes. Nobody in Great Britain would send Oscar Wilde in prison for the crime of sodomy and he could be quoted for "there is no such thing as a moral or immoral sexual act. Sexual acts are well done or badly done" without being shocking. Of course.

Still I think that BL is still a shocking book and rape a shocking subject.
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Post by linda_lakeside »

Tchoco,
Linda, sometimes I wonder if you are reading the posts of other people before writing yours. But yes, you are doing, this is why you are able to joke all the time about them, are you? Ha! (if not let do as if it is).
I don't know what you're getting at. Sometimes I can barely glance through a thread before I post (and keep my fingers crossed that I get across to the person I'm replying to, what it is that I mean).

If you're suggesing that I read the posts of others so that I can 'make fun' of them, then, I'm sorry, but you're way off track.

Linda.
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