Let's talk about A Life of Errands

[Byron]

One could say that this is a capital poem if one has not already mentioned it?
Hammers hitting the words into the cells.
Each word is as important as any other and each word is a friend of the 'voice.' But I'm wandering into interpretation again.

[Makera]

Hi Albert~

Never mind, just remember this saying: "Rules were made for the guidance of the wise, and the blind obedience of fools."

I keep remembering that song "Inchworm" (can't remember from 'when')

"Inchworm, inchworm,
Measuring the marigolds
Did you ever stop to see
How beautiful they are...

Refrain: (children's chorus)
2 & 2 are 4; 4 & 4 are 8
8 & 8 are 16; 16 & 16 are 32."

~Makera

[lizzytysh]

OKKAAAAYYYY, Sohbet and CLASSMATES

The second sentence, "You will discern what people need and provide it before they ask," in other words, means:

If you are lucky, you will have become so caring and aware of, attuned to, and observant of others, that you will be focused and able to figure out on your own what their needs are, because you will be able to look at them as individuals and see them clearly in their own environments and/or circumstances, completely apart from yourself and your own, and see or be able to figure out their needs, because you understand better now what's important and what real needs [versus "wants"] are in the context of life;

and, if you are lucky, you will have learned the joy of "gifting" and helping others [and that it's more important than receiving] and you will be willing to do it, to the extent of considering it a privilege;

and, if you are lucky, you will be egoless [and be grateful to be of service to others], and you will not require that people have to humble themselves to you, by requiring that they come to you, having to ask for your help when they need something, but you will, instead, see their need and just give it.

[I think that's about it ~ he packs so much meaning into a few words. I hope I haven't added to what he means, but that's what I get out of it. Or, have I gone too far in restating the sentence into other words ? Sohbet ~ If this amounts to interpretation vs. restatement, please say so. I'll save it, but will delete it here, until later.

Would I be better to just say, "If you are lucky, you will be sensitive, insightful, generous, and humble [materially and in spirit], and will not require that people humble themselves to you by requiring that they ask you for your help when they need it. You will, already, be gladly giving it." Thanks!] This is not easy ! I'm not one for headaches, but I think I may be getting one .

~ Elizabeth

[Helven]

Sohbet, thank you very much for such an “exercise”! Maybe it isn’t too interesting for the native speakers (as well as for those who speak English fluently), I don’t know. But I was very glad of your last posting.
I like LC’ lyrics very much. But, unfortunately, sometimes I don’t quite follow him. Sometimes all I can is to guess the meaning of sentences. Of course, it’s quite interesting too ‘cause it gives some “free space” for imagination. But, yet, I’d like to understand more. So, again, thanks for the topic.

I’ll put here very simple restatement of the third phrase.

You’ll take your car and will go everywhere in order to bring/give something to the other people; there may arise some problems - caused by the traffic or the weather, for example - but they aren’t able to disturb/hinder/stop you.

[Sohbet]

Dear Helven, I am glad you are enjoying this exercise. Many fluent speakers of English as their native language enjoy this as well, as a way to enter a poem or a piece of prose. A famous writer in English ,E.M. Forster, said the secret of writing (and I think of other things) is, "Only connect." I think in order to connect, however, a time of trying to see as clearly as possible is instructive and amusing. I never take it for granted that people receive the message in my mind by the words of my tongue or pen. As an example, take the word "tree." Everybody reading this will see a tree but all our trees will be different. Think, then, how much more difficult the task of creative writing, poetry or prose. The message received by someone listening to me may be quite different and that's fine, too, even great, maybe even required by the gods of communication and language lovers, but I think it's always respectful first to acknowledge the message as best you can before elaborating. Then again, as the dying man said of the bucket, perhaps it's not.

[lizzytysh]

Aha, Sohbet!

"...but I think it's always respectful first to acknowledge the message as best you can before elaborating."

There's the answer to my question, re: my initial elaboration vs. my final, simpler restating of the message. [No disrespect intended.] I think Helven did very well with hers !

~ Elizabeth

[Helven]

Dear Sohbet, thanks for the response. Yes, I believe, everyone could find this exercise interesting and helpful. My “words of doubt” weren’t thoughtful enough. Actually, as for the texts written in or translated into my native language, I used to enjoy interpretations or even just the meaning clarification process itself when I had a possibility to be a participant of such a process. You’re right, even the simplest things appear before the different eyes (minds) in different ways. And that’s fantastic – that great variety of possible ways to see the same things.

Now it isn’t my turn to give a restatement but I’ll do it nevertheless. The forth sentence is just such a case when I have to speculate about the meaning since it isn’t quite clear for me. I hope native speakers will get some fun – that’s why I get down to para-phrasing.

There were three moments that perplexed me – “whip down”, “the 405 to San Diego” and interrelationship of “an acorn” and “someone’s proverb”.

My dictionary was so kind as to inform me that “down” may be used when one speaks of a moving from the center to the provinces or – in American English – a moving in the South direction.
The problem of “the 405…” was removed when I’ve decided it was the 405th km in the direction of San Diego. (I hope it’s a city or a town.)
And as for the last difficulty, I thought, “Damn, why does a proverb need an acorn?!” [if an acorn is an oak seed and a proverb is something like a saying ] but then it came into my head that they weren’t connected with each other at all and LC just was talking about a deed – search for an acorn – which was discussed so long and intensively that the proverb could arise.

So, here is my restatement:

You’ll go very, very fast to some quite distant place – for example, to the 405th km in the direction of San Diego – in order to find and bring to someone all sorts of odds and ends [i.e. any insignificant thing] - for example, an acorn; you’ll do it just in order that someone take pleasure in making up a proverb about it; and so on and so forth.

And now, please, correct me!

[Sohbet]

Dear Helven, You have done a most remarkable job of stating meaning about this sentence! Yes, this sentence is so, what-- fanciful, poetic, just right-- that it's very difficult to give it an objective meaning. However, I think you have captured its essence. This is my favorite part of the poem, I think. Oh, we don't have to take turns. If you have thoughts one after another, post them all. Best, Sohbet P.S. 405 is the name of a highway. We usually call highways by numbers rather than names. For example, where I live, we have the Lincoln Highway but we usually call it Route 30. Often highways don't even have names, just numbers. These inter-cultural language things are interesting, aren't they?

[lizzytysh]

Dear Helven and Sohbet ~

We may laugh with you, Helven, but we won't laugh at you. I was tempted to answer about the 405 before I left the office, but figured since you'd addressed it to Sohbet, I'd at least give him a chance to answer . I don't live in California [or wherever this poem was written, I think California], but I was going to offer that the 405 was a freeway. But Sohbet took care of that . Looking at it as 405 km is definitely reasonable, when you're unaware of the naming of highways here. Even without it being km's, the fact that it's a freeway, still gives the impression of traveling a fair distance for a rather small item or favour. And you're absolutely right, Helven, through your dictionary and Sohbet, that going "down" indicates traveling south.

I also really like what you've done with the phrase as a whole! The only glitch for me is the acorn/proverb issue, which is just as baffling to me. I think after all my elaboration, we may end right back where you ended, Helven, but I'm not sure, so I'd like you two [and whomever else might join in or back in], to look at all this with me, so we're sure not to miss anything. I just don't feel we should move on too quickly from this nebulous, obscure phrase.

If I may, I won't do any restating on your restatement, but I'll share some of my ideas for you to consider, add to, rearrange, or whatever, on the acorn/proverb issue. I keep turning the phrase around, trying to see it from different angles.

For me, this is as far as I've gotten: The acorn, because it is the "seed" for the great oak [a huge and sturdy tree, strongly connected to the earth], it has become rather synonymous, as a symbol, for tremendous growth coming from a very tiny "morsel." In that sense, the relatively tiny acorn is "packed" with concentrated life, as evidenced by its potential for growth, totally out of proportion to its size. The action of picking it up for someone's proverb is a visual and implied meaning [in my mind] that I can't quite get to ~ yet .

Is he, as you suggest, Helven, picking up the smallest of items [at least in terms of his life, but] that could have tremendous importance in the life of another? The point being that, again, it's what's important in their life, not in his. It's their acorn and it's their proverb. I think of someone helping you move all your worldly goods from one location to another. To them, they are just doing a good deed, perhaps only a Saturday afternoon being spent for them, yet for you, these are the items you need to live ["successfully"] every day, potentially for your "entire" life [depending on your age ], and their assistance has helped facilitate making certain that you have them with you.

Whip is the action word [verb form] for the movement of a whip, which is unbelievably fast [I don't recall the figures, but they were unfathomable, something that might not be the speed of light, but equally amazing]. So, Whip Down The 405 definitely suggests a very quick trip for the driver, akin to the Saturday afternoon related above.

"To Pick Up An Acorn
For Someone's Proverb"

however, seems to me to have great meaning [with "proverb" being such a clear, biblical reference ~ and acorn being such a "metaphor"? for growth] if I can just get to it ! This is usually why I am easily intimidated by the idea of actually trying to seriously interpret Leonard's work in any substantial way [other than to/for myself]. Now, in this particular case, I don't know that much about the Bible. However, I think of proverbs as being concentrated guides to live by, which if followed and abided by, can lead to a successful life. So, there we have concentrated elements required for life [acorn]/concentrated rules for life [proverbs]. Acorns can lead to a huge, strong, "successful" tree [oak]; and proverbs can lead to a strong, "successful" life [person]. The outcomes of both are strength, solidity, and successful life.

When I looked it up in The Book [a common-language version of the Bible that is easier to read and understand, as it's written in everyday, modern language], this is what I found as a synopsis for the content and theme of Proverbs. I had the right idea [basically], and even some of the same terms [on my own ]; however, this description goes much deeper, and I feel it is ultimately relevant [somehow !] to Leonard's poem. I think you'll find it interesting, too.

"Content: The book of Proverbs contains practical instructions for successful living, given by God to supplement the teaching of the prophets, which was to call men to repentance, and the work of the priests, which was to direct the worship of the people. The book of Proverbs teaches that there is a divine wisdom given to man by God, but there is also a divinely given human wisdom, or common sense, and both must play a part in daily life. Practical sayings from many centuries are collected together in this book and it deals with such diverse matters as the discipline of children, social justice, foolish talk, and money. It ends significantlywith a description of a truly good wife.

"Theme: The theme of Proverbs is stated in 1:7 ~ The first step to wisdom is to trust and reverence the Lord. This is to say that only when a man trusts in God will he be truly wise. Human wisdom is fine and necessary but no matter how skilled a person might be, without humility in the presence of God and a willingness to learn from him, he will inevitably go astray. The book also teaches the sanctity of human life. Everything that pertains to successful living is a concern to God and he has made provision for it."

It seems to me [may be remembering wrong here] that oak trees are also associated somehow with the quality of wisdom ~ perhaps related to the length of their [long] life, and the presumption that with age comes wisdom.

Feel free [PLEASE ] to help me pull from these two paragraphs elements that may be helpful in nailing down this phrase. I am so of the belief that Leonard is deliberate in his writing, and that everything is packed with meaning, it's just a matter of ferreting it out . [Helven ~ "ferreting out" basically means finding something when it appears to be very difficult to do so.] Even if we don't get anything more out of it, perhaps we can appreciate it further in some more of its richness.

SO, the item [Acorn] would be light, but packed with life or potential for life. I want to do something with The Book's statement, "The book [Proverbs] also teaches the sanctity of human life." So, is Leonard's mere action of picking up the acorn, meant to be a symbol for and validation of the sanctity of [that person's] life?

The acorn is presumed to have a divine wisdom of its own, the divine knowledge for how to become that huge tree. Yet, when speaking about wisdom, Proverbs references two kinds ~ "the kind given to man by God, but also a divinely given human wisdom, or common sense, and both must play a part in daily life." It then states, "Practical sayings from many centuries are collected together in this book and it deals with such diverse matters as the discipline of children, social justice, foolish talk, and money."

So, does picking up an acorn for someone's proverb perhaps suggest picking up [what appears to be or is]a relatively small item, but that is practical and fill many and varied needs in their life?

I JUST DON'T KNOW!!! It's late, and I need to go to bed. I also need to let all of this soak in, and to keep running that phrase through my mind. It may not mean that much, at all. After all, he does get rather dismissive in the line immediately following it, with "And So On And So Forth," as though he had just been reciting a list of minor and minute details.

I'm sure I've gotten quite repetitive here, and I hope I haven't been too boring, but I'm determined to get something ethical, or spiritual, or something more out of that phrase. It really could simply be that he's willing to travel great distances to do or pick up seemingly minor things or items ~ which would definitely constitute a good friend. Thanks for bearing with me. I'll see you tomorrow. I've gone on way past long enough, and I'm somewhere between Aarrrrrrrrggggghhhhhhh and Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

~ Elizabeth

[lizzytysh]

This will be brief! Or I'll be late for work .

Just wanted to add that it seems the 405 [I think I may have already said it, but] holds up as representing "distance," as Helven concluded with the km interpretation ~ UNLESS, it's a case of the area around LA being all complicated in its being connected with freeways (as my interpretation of the "distance" came to be, just through a different means from Helven's). It COULD be a short distance, with the freeway being the easiest [and therefore quickest], but not necessarily that far. However, it still seems to be indicating a favour that's more than just going a few blocks.

I keep wanting to make the acorn/proverb somehow relate to rules [for a successful life], but more specifically for getting a wife, as it appears Proverbs largest section deals with, so may be representative here of that aspect.....particularly since that sentence is immediately followed by his comment about "...The Girl You Never Found." I think of how driving and thinking always seem to go so well, together, and how that could be a time that these thoughts play through his head.

So, maybe, picking up a small item, that could be part of another person's life and, therefore, the growth process [the acorn] that could result in someone's being grounded [the roots of the oak] ~ an item perhaps for someone's household [representing stability] ~ of someone else finding "The Girl," as Proverbs shows one how to do succesfully.

I don't know. I dreamt last night of finding a very thin woman drowned in a shallow [she was barely, yet completely covered by water] accumulation of water in a square, tile shower, in a public place. I seized her up immediately and started running toward a phone to call 9=1=1 and hitting her on her back. After a few minutes she returned to "life." So, when I tried to make sense of that dream immediately, I of course, related it to the poem ~ and thought, out of shallow [seeming] water [words] can come apparent death [i.e. not much meaning], but out of that same water, can come life [the woman's life returned]. I don't know, it seems not unlikely that Leonard would relate to doing what he could to help someone else in successful marriage. Perhaps it was a young man, moving into a new phase of his life, with Leonard assisting in the moving process.....toward a life that would grow [acorn] solidly [acorn] into a successful [acorn/Proverb] life [Proverb/acorn] and eventually lead to a wife [Proverb] and presumably[?] the Proverb's culmination of what constitutes "successful" life [since the largest section of Proverbs is apparently devoted to it]. These thoughts while driving might trigger the kind of melancholia we see in the next sentence.

I don't know. Still trying. Past time to go!

~ Elizabeth

[lizzytysh]

Sorry, guys, still trying to get this Acorn/Proverb link and meaning. I'm at work now [so this is going to work to your benefit ].

Acorn = concentrated life in its beginning form [to become the deeply-rooted, mighty oak, with its "presumed" wisdom, the result]
Proverb = concentrated Truth about life, [conceivably] formed after years of examination of life, spirit, others, and self. Perhaps represents the concentrated end result and words of wisdom, after a life of searching, seeking, and learning.

So, if you're lucky, you'll be willing to "go the distance" [drive "405 km ," a distance down the freeway] to assist a younger person in the beginning of their life, and in the details [or literal items ~ i.e. an Acorn], that may play a significant part in their preparation to grow and become a "mighty oak" and find their Truth, you as an "old" person already having had and taken your own opportunities for that growth.

Some old people become bitter toward the young, as a result of their own missed opportunities, choices not made, and paths not taken. Whereas, other old people remain open toward the young, and all of the potential that is within them, even if they don't necessarily feel they've achieved their own.

In this phrase, I somehow see an openness in the speaker to help, in whatever seemingly "small" ways, the young to become great and find their own, concentrated Truth. I see it as a re-enforcement of the selflessness, coming from a spiritual perspective.

Will someone else please say something! I'm afraid I took to heart what you said, Sohbet, about going right after yourself, if you wanted. But, it's definitely time for someone else to enter in here! Helven and Sohbet, do you think I'm off on a tangent with the Acorn/Proverb, or do you think it has merit? Can you help me narrow it down if you do? Thanks .

~ Elizabeth

[Makera]

Byron~

This sure is Piled High and Deep!! (said Hercules to the stable boy).

Oh dear! I'm afraid your gentlemanly admonition to "'those' evidently intoxicated by the exuberance of their own verbosity" fell on deaf 'eyes'. How selfishly inconsiderate to our beleaguered Russian friend and scholar! To have to wade through rivers of verbal diarrhoea to find so little of worth...ugh! Wouldn't wish it on anyone! Words like 'brevity' and 'succinct' need to be inculcated I can see. (These pearls will be lost in the swill as well)
A mustard seed's worth is all it takes....oh well.

Sohbet~

About the 'bucket'; according to Hyacinth it's actually a 'bouquet'! (ref: "Keeping Up Appearances" - BBC comedy series)

~Makera
[PS edit to add clarification on comedy series ref.]

[linmag]

Elizabeth - There is a proverb "Great oaks from little acorns grow". Perhaps this is as far as we need to look to find a key to Leonard's meaning here. But aren't we straying into the realms of interpretation here?

[lizzytysh]

Exactly, Linmag. I agree on the Acorn. What about the Acorn becoming part of Someone Else's Proverb? Yes, it really is straying into interpretation, jumping both feet probably. It's just that, if it weren't Leonard, I'd be willing to let the Acorn/Proverb reference "go." However, he spent an entire sentence on it, and the Acorn/Proverb seems to be the most substantive part of it. So, I'm "thinking out loud" [in print on the thread] about all the possibilities that it might entail, hoping that the reference's importance will emerge [between all of us reading that material and those excerpts], so the Acorn/Proverb won't be left lying alongside the freeway. I feel it really does have relevance to the whole.

Thanks for your comment on it .

~ Elizabeth

[Helven]

Dear all!
Oh, life is busy here! I love it!

Dear Elizabeth, it was a pleasure for me to read your commentaries! It has never came into my head that there was meant an acorn that would turn an oak. And all you’ve said regarding this image is very interesting and completely “legitimate”. And I don’t have any negative impressions or anything like that. I really don’t!
Actually, I have my own interpretations of that symbol which are in apparent conflict with yours. But I see the way to bring them together and, I believe, it will be a way to deepen our understanding.
I won’t write about it right now – I need some time to formulate my interpretations in English. Hm, “It’s gonna take time, a whole lot of precious time” (George Harrison, Got My Mind Set on You from Cloud Nine [Dear Gennelle/Makera, I’ve always love this album too! ]). I hope I’ll put my “writings” here tomorrow. [Hold on, guys! You’ll know what the true verbosity is! ]

Dear Gennelle (Makera), I hope you will share with us your interpretations. I bet they would be amazing! And the “meanings field” would become exceptionally wide and rich!

Dear Linmag, thank you for mentioning a proverb "Great oaks from little acorns grow". I had an idea that there must be any concrete proverb which was meant in the poem. It’s clear now that Elizabeth’s interpretation is more than appropriate. But, yet, I’ll put here my own one - I just hope it would be interesting somehow.

Dear Sohbet, I ought to guess “the 405” was the name of a highway! Actually, of course, our highways have their numbers too. And also they have their local names - different for different stretches. And it’s more natural for us to use those local names.

Yours,
Helven/Tanya