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Lizzie I have nothing more to say about Jo. If she has an opinion on what I have said perhaps she would like to voice it. I am all ears.

This war like all wars will breed more wars! Is this so hard to see? Yes I am sure we would all like to see Saddam retire or soon expire of natural causes. Nevertheless if Bush is reliable with his threats then Iraq will soon be followed by Iran, Syria and N.Korea. Are we to witness the transfomation of the world's self appointed policemen to the worlds largest rogue state? (Who needs the UN?) Who is to disarm the states and other major powers of all their weapons of mass destruction when the dust settles?What is to become of the 'yes-men/lap-dogs' of Aust. and the UK.?
What really bothers me more so than the plight of Iraq is the trend of the USA to not merely manage the rest of the world but to attempt to change it according to the ideals of the western, capitalist, industrial complex.
Excuse me- but is this not what Hitler attempted to do? So the plight of Iraq is the plight of the whole world. The USA makes a powerful and persuasive ally but a notorious and formidable foe. A warning from my past- "beware your protector for in time he may become your adversary."
Question of the day. If Napoleon was the first anti-christ and Hitler the second; who then- is or will be the third?

Dear Aavalanche ~

At risk of being considered a " 'yes' man," [which doesn't really concern me in these circumstances], I agree with what you're saying and the deeper significance and implications of it all.

~ Lizzytysh

I'm not sure that she'll bother with that, Paula. I only felt the need based on my own views.

~ Lizzytysh

" Your religious calling was written on plates of stone by the flaming finger of an angry God.
Our religion was established by the traditions of our ancestors, the dreams of our elders that are given to them in the silent hours by the Great Spirit. And the premonitions of the learned beings.
It is written in the hearts of our people, thus:
We do not require churches - which would only lead us to argue over God. And the thoughts that white men should rule over nature and change its ways to his liking, was never understood by the red man.
Our belief is that the Great Spirit has created all things. Not just mankind, but all animals, all plants, all rocks, all on earth and amongst the stars with true soul.
For us, all life is holy.
But. You do not understand our prayers when we address the Sun, Moon, and Winds. You have judged us without understanding, only because our prayers are different.
But we are able to live in harmony with all of nature. All of nature is within us and we are all part of nature."
Chief White Cloud

very wise words but of little use against the pioneering white man who continues to pioneer.. it must be in the genes.... there's gold in them there hills!
Aavalanche caused a jolt within... surely what he said was implausible, but then again it is probably improbable.

Pete

That's a very thought-provoking quote, Pete. What a shame the red man did not remain in control of northern America. With your permission, I would like to pass this on to a few friends who I think would appreciate it.

Hi Linda
I came across this quote just yesterday.

My son, Robin, reads many books by a particular author and when he talks to me about it I play the devil's advocate and counter his shared beliefs.
He visited us last week and left a book on the coffee table

I looked at the back cover and read the following;
"...exposes the mental and emotional prisons which billions of people build around themselves - prisons which allow a tiny few to control the direction of the world. He shows how shallow and ridiculous are the fears, guilts, resentments and limitations which blight the lives of humankind, ............ also reveals staggering information about the unspeakable activities of world famous politicians and 'entertainers'..."

The quote from Chief White Cloud is written before chapter 1 as a form of preface. It then made me read chapter 1 and I've read enough to try chapter 2... and I'm not the sort of person who reads books from cover to cover.. I prefer to dip in and out of articles etc.

Chapter 1 refers to us as having a herd mentality and thus relinquishing our freedom.

If I was to say who the author is then ridicule sets in... but my son, who has argued his case with the great James Whale on Talk Radio has started to make me think.. and to put aside the turquoise shell suit and ' son of god' claim.
yes , you've guessed.... David Icke
and I didnt realise that he has written so many books. This one is called "I am me I am free The robots' guide to freedom".. the title is enough to put you off

I'll keep reading and try not to think of the lizards

Please feel free to quote Chief White Cloud ..

Take care
Pete

Hi Pete ~

Yes, I am familiar with this quote, and other American Indian ones I've encountered here [in the U.S.] that document the original settlers' [and continuing with the government's new search-and-seizure, and lack of sovereignty plans, already underway]. I am also familiar with David Icke, as a dear friend has four (4) of his books. He looks amazingly "normal," doesn't he.....Icke. Not the straggly, long-haired, unkempt hippie you'd expect to be behind such theories. If you are to trust his research, what is revealed is most incredible....and becomes harder and harder to ignore and dismiss as merely "extremist." Very interesting reading, but I've never taken well to the small-print, many-lines-per-page, thick books.

As a child [by neighbouring playmates], I was referred to as Lizzy Lizard, but I'm confident I am not part of that particular blood- and scale-line . If you care [privately, of course] I can point out a couple characteristics that you may find interesting to watch for as you view press conferences, etc. during this ongoing war. I've gone to Icke's sight; however, don't intend to participate in it, not wanting the CIA adding me to their list just yet .

Hi Elizabeth
The reason why I am persisting with this particular book is that there are only 207 pages and the type is bigger than his other books. Robin was very clever in not leaving the larger volumes with the small print... he knows my limits
regards
Pete

I post now because I deplore the characterization of those who serve in the respective militaries of their nation as brainwashed. We are not brainwashed or as another condescendingly said "indoctrination".

We have minds, as well as you. We think, and perhaps we think more because our lives will be the ones to go first. We have principles too. I am tired of reading the subtle and not so subtle insults. I have worked closely with officers and men of the United State's Marine Corp. I respect them greatly. They are decent men. I can say also that they have always treated us with respect.

It is a lie to say that you support your troops and then insult them on this Forum. You may disagree over the necessity of this war and you say you do not blame the soldiers. But if the United State Army is as bad as you say it is and the United States is as bad as you say it is. Then why do you live there? Why do you not move to Europe or South America. As for me, I would move to live in the United States tomorrow if I were able to. Here, we still see it as the Land of Promise.

I have never seen so much hate directed at one country.

I thought this was not my war.
I thought this war did not affect me.
It wasn't real to me.

I'm looking at a photgraph in Time and I'm weeping.

The photograph is of a dead Iraqi soldier lying at the side of a road in the desert.

This could be my husband, my son, be my friend or my lover.

What could be more precious than a life?
A difference of opinion?
Money?
Oil?
A desert?
A forest?

If this is what humans do I don't want to be human anymore.

Looking through my local paper this evening I came across this poem written by a young lady of 14 years.

I arrived at the battle, with thoughts
in my head.
Would this be a triumph or a grave
for the dead?
The sights and the smells were lurking
around,
And don't forget that horrific
sound.
I don't want to die, but I do
believe
Soon my family will have a reason
to grieve.

A victory at last, this day is the
best
a triumph for some, a miss for the
rest
I think to myself that this war won't
be long.
My conscience is telling me that
the whole thing is wrong.
I don't want to die, but I do still
believe
Very soon my family will have a
reason to grieve

I hear grunts and groans as I lay
down to sleep
The reality's worse. To myself I
would weep.
Go over the top, don't worry be
brave
I was told to walk, the energy to save
I don't want to die, but I strongly
believe
Soon my family will have a reason
to grieve

I carry on fighting, I'm down with
one shot
I'm not quite dead yet, but I'm
bleeding a lot.
the horrors of war are rolled into
one
Will my mother be left with minus
one son?
I don't want to die, but now I
believe
soon my family will have a reason
to grieve

I'm very ill now and I'm losing my
mind.
My happy life memories I'm
leaving behind
The battle is over but to me there's
no end
No matter how hard I try I just
can't pretend
I don't want to die, but I have to
believe
My family now has a reason to grieve.

I don't know which is the saddest the poem or that it was written by someone so young.

Altinkum

A child so young who lives an empathic life beyond her few years on this earth. An amazing and to-the-detail, insightful poem. She's feeling this war with her heart and soul. Thanks for bringing it to us, Altinkum. I agree with you on how do we assess the sadness.

I don't know how to respond to Alexander's claim that "so much hate" is being exhibited here toward "one country" (presumably the U.S.). Virtually everyone here who has expressed opposition to the war has also expressed great and deeply-felt love & admiration for the ideals of freedom, liberty, etc. that resonate through the founding texts of the U.S. -- indeed, many of us have stated repeatedly that we mourn the betrayal of these ideals in the name of power and greed that we believe this enterprise represents (as have many others).

Terms like "Brainwashing" are, admittedly, incendiary and difficult to define. Nonetheless, I don't think any trainer of soldiers who wanted to be honest would deny that in order to prepare oneself for the ordeals --mental, physical, etc.-- involved in doing what must be done in war, a person has to go through some pretty rigorous, intense, and pervasive psychological re-tooling.

Many, many soldiers who return from war tell us that they have to really work hard to re-learn what it's like to live in civilian society, adhering to the non-combative, non-aggressive mores and protocols that make civil society possible. That doesn't mean that they don't "think," or that their minds have been destroyed. It does, though, mean that the ordeal of war is a highly unnatural thing for the human organism to go through, and to carry it out successfully one must be prepared by unlearning many things that may once have seemed "natural," and replacing them with new things.

In terms of "supporting" soldiers: that represents a very deep and complex moral conundrum for me, and although I fear I'll alienate and enrage some folks by delving into this (which I don't want to do), I feel compelled to do so anyway:

I admire the bravery and valor of soldiers. I admire their commitment, their willingness to die (and, alas, kill) for what they've been taught to believe is right [again, a willingness that I think must be learned through rigorous training, because most of us don't have that willingness under normal circumstances in everyday life]. I admire their loyalty to the high ideals they believe in. I admire their strength, nearly superhuman in so many cases, to endure the torments of something apporximating hell-on-earth and yet remain focused and true. Many of the most splendid poems, songs, stories, epics, and novels --from Homer to the present day-- have been sagas of war and military struggle. I honor that tradition deeply, even as I grieve over the untold slaughter and carnage it represents.

Yet and still: how do I balance this with my revulsion, especially in a case like this, for the acts they've been sent to perform? "Hate the sin, love the sinner," I suppose -- but in this case it's not a matter of "sin" (as in a moral flaw or some kind of existential failing), but conscious and pre-meditated acts being carried out in the name of a cause (imperialist expansion disguised as humanitarian intervention) that I believe is morally unjust, and will make the world a much more dangerous place than it has been up to now.

I have no answer to that conundrum, except to say that I wish with every fibre of my being for the safe return of each and every combatant in Iraq (and elsewhere) -- "May the four winds blow you safely home" -- even as I cannot find it within myself to "support" the cause in which they've been enlisted -- and by that I do not mean the toppling of Saddam (which I would certainly rejoice to see), nor even the seige of Baghdad (which, now that it's under way, I can only hope ends up being as quick and bloodless as can be humanly possible) but the state/corporate imperialist agenda of which this particular campaign is certainly only one component.

Our government "loves" its soldiers so much that even as we speak, the Veterans Administration health care system is being cut so severely that untold numbers of vets --both older-generation and currently returning-- will soon find themselves unable to attain necessary health care.

This carving up of the VA health system has been going on for some time, by the way. Unless I'm mistaken, it really kicked in under Reagan --another "pro-military" president who never saw battle himself but was willing to send brave young men and women to kill and die... while helping to dismantle the social and economic infrastructure that many of them (as poor and working-class people) had depended upon before they enlisted, and would now depend upon again after returning home. (Veterans comprise a very significant percentage of the homeless population of the U.S.)


"Johnny, we hardly knew ye..." indeed --