Book of Mercy #27-28

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
lazariuk
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by lazariuk »

lazariuk wrote:If you are wondering on how big a state do you need to hold the human population standing close together. About 1/3 of Rhode Island would do the trick. With the whole state being used it would be like a very crowded cocktail party.
I got interested in this trying to imagine the size of us. Taking it further.
If we made a world to scale using a steel ball with a 6 foot diameter, the condensation from breathing on it would be deeper than our deepest ocean.
With that in mind consider that the entire population of the world can fit on the tiny island of Aruba.
This might give us a sense of our place in history.
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
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mat james
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by mat james »

I get the idea sometimes that everything I do should be a prayer.
That perhaps is something to strive for, for many people.
It leads to interesting perspectives.
I'm not quite into that way of viewing as it leads to even the nastiest of actions being somehow sancioned.
Maybe that is ok for the old testament god,(who made some pretty hard calls!) but it is not ok for me. 8)

That sex tangent/ interpretation you went down was interesting and could lead to great "views";
but I am not sure if that is where Leonard intended us to go?
Who cares,!? go there anyway for awhile and see what you stumble upon.

Manna, you have a way with words! I love the shock value inherent there. :lol:
I must say that I don't enjoy this verse of Leonard's very much though. I find these judgemental prophetic outbursts a pain.
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
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blonde madonna
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by blonde madonna »

mat james wrote:I must say that I don't enjoy this verse of Leonard's very much though. I find these judgemental prophetic outbursts a pain.
I also found this a difficult verse to read because it firstly brought to mind the ongoing conflict around Israeli settlers. It read like a political speech rather than poetry.

But following the discussion, particularly the Biblical background, has added layers and deepened the meaning for me. It makes more sense now. Thanks everyone.
the art of longing’s over and it’s never coming back

1980 -- Comedy Theatre, Melbourne
1985 -- State Theatre, Melbourne
2008 -- Hamilton, Toronto, Cardiff
2009 -- Rochford Winery, Yarra Valley
2010 -- Melbourne
2013 -- Melbourne, The Hill Winery, Geelong, Auckland
che
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by che »

English is not my native tongue but I wonder if posters sometime read more in a poem of Leonard than he put into this, maybe you see more than is there to be find.
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by Manna »

...sex...but I am not sure if that is where Leonard intended us to go?
No, I'm quite certain not. My interest was in where you were going.
:lol: :roll: 8)

just getting your goat, really. :mrgreen:
lazariuk
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by lazariuk »

Manna wrote:
I get the idea sometimes that everything I do should be a prayer.
Did you ever get the idea that everything you do is a prayer?
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
lazariuk
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by lazariuk »

che wrote:English is not my native tongue but I wonder if posters sometime read more in a poem of Leonard than he put into this, maybe you see more than is there to be find.
In this book of prayers one of them is a prayer that reads " do not let the words be mine, but change them into truth" Maybe more is found than he put in, so what?

Jack

"Who says I can't get heavenly aid" B. Dylan
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
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mat james
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by mat james »

No, I'm quite certain not. My interest was in where you were going.
Manna

I can tell you where I am not going.

To church.
To the Synagogue
To the Mosque
To the Taoist shrine
To the Buddhist temple
To the Hindu guru

To anywhere where poeple submit.

These are the places I don't go.
Thank god!
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
Manna
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by Manna »

sometimes it's fun to be submissive, Mat.

ooooooohhhh, I just can't help myself sometimes!!
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mat james
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by mat james »

Where's that whip?
(ambiguous !)

I understand that should I flail the whip, I should hold a sacred book under my armpit, so as not to exact too much damage.
Should you swing the whip???
Well I suspect you may be a bit of a brute!...... No Book :cry:

I dont think DB Cohen is going to be impressed with this little tangent we have sauntered along :oops:
Let's get it over with 8)
and then get back on track. Prophesy, paranoia and so on. :lol:

Matj
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
lazariuk
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by lazariuk »

none of these lands is yours, all of you are thieves of holiness
The Beautiful Loser - Judah Magnes
I have my picture in the Gallery of Beautiful Losers, but if you are one to think of it as a term of worthy distinction I think the term is better suited to Judah Magnes. When I came to know some of his story “beautiful loser” seemed like such an appropriate title.
It wasn’t easy for the Jews to be spread out around the world but on the other hand, from the rest of the world, they received much. Even it has been written of how much the Jews received from the cultural depth of Germany.
Judah Magnes represented the best of what America had given the Jews.  He was considered the prime champion of a bi-national Palestine.  
He was the American Jew who gave all his heart to a dream of the holy land. He died the year that Israel became a Jewish state and many said that he died of a broken heart.
Born in the American West he seemed to represent everything that was good about America and he thrived in it. At 29 he astounded everyone by becoming a rabbi of the Central Reform Synagogue of New York. Never had they had someone so young, but that was America. Nobody thought him politically naive.
He later became the chief executive officer of the American Zionist Foundation and it's most noted spokesperson.  To a lot of the Jews around the world he was the voice of the American Jew and was treated as such when he first went to Palestine.
When he first moved to Palestine he was considered one of the handful of American Jews that believed so strongly in a Jewish homeland in Palestine that they were ready to commit their lives to it.  Along with Albert Einstein he founded the first Hebrew University and became it's president for almost all of his time in Palestine until he died.
He was one of the people who together with others like Martin Buber broke against the orders of the Jewish Agency and addressed the Anglo American Committee with the plan of a Bi-National Palestine.  
Who were the Anglo American Committee?
Prior to the event of the statehood of Israel world circumstances had placed the fate of Palestine in the hands of England and the United States. So in order to act responsibility a committee of inquiry was formed of people from both countries from many walks of life and given the mandate to look at all the issues and make recommendations. It was called the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry.
The committee was chosen of people who were to take a long hard look at the different points of view at what would be best for Palestine and the Jews and Arabs that lived there. The idea was that they should have no political bias. (which is unlikely to be the case). They did hear all the different sides of the arguments. There was one very small group who was included in the hearings that made a case for a bi-national Palestine of which Magnes was a part of. It was a very small voice but it influenced the committee greatly. After Judah Magnes spoke Judge Hutcheson who was from the American group, a seasoned judge from the Maryland District court said to Magnes:
I would like to preface my questions by saying, Dr. Magnes, I am not ready to assess your proposals, but I am a fairly old man, and I recognize moral power when I see it. I want to say, sir, that I can say in the words of my Leader: “Behold an Israelite indeed in whom there is no guile.”
Consider how that must have sounded to the rest of the committee or how it can sound to us. Here you have a very experienced judge who I am sure has had a fill in his court rooms of hearing guild every day,( he spends his time with lawyers) and of this man Magnes he quotes Jesus to say that Magnes is without guile. It is like saying “I swear by all that I hold holy that this witness is the one telling the truth” Imagine the impact that would have on a jury and in many ways they were a jury.
Another person who witnessed alongside Judah Magnes was Martin Buber and both were giving as one of the reasons for their involvement was that they didn’t want Jews to become “thieves of holiness” When Martin Buber spoke he addressed in part what it means for a land to be holy. After he spoke Richard Crossman from the English group said
“I was asking about you this morning, and somebody told me you were the only reasonable man in Palestine. When I was listening to you, I began to see why he paid you that compliment.”
I think it should not be just a footnote in the history of Palestine and Israel that when all the facts were looked at and points of views considered that the committee made the recommendation that Palestine should be made a bi-national country.

President Truman was in favor of it.  He claimed that he thought it would be fair to say that there was probably no head of state that was as deeply concerned as he was about Palestine and that no other head of state that was as knowledgeable as he was about Palestine.  He said that he had almost memorized the report of the Anglo American Committee and that he kept it in a drawer with the charter of the United Nations and the plan for the economic recovery of Europe.
This idea of a Bi-National Palestine was not just some naive idea without support of those with deep understanding of political realities.
I should point out that although many of the political leaders in Zionism were angered by people like Buber and Magnes going against their plans they were still treated with respect and dignity.  Many of the young Arab leaders who expressed a vision similar to Buber and Magnes were killed by other Arabs.
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
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lizzytysh
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by lizzytysh »

That's a very moving account for me, Jack. It seems such an obvious and simple solution... a compromise where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts; one that could allow peace to reign. Is it so unthinkable and undoable?


~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
lazariuk
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by lazariuk »

lizzytysh wrote:That's a very moving account for me, Jack. It seems such an obvious and simple solution... a compromise where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts; one that could allow peace to reign. Is it so unthinkable and undoable?
As dylan would say "You can go back , but you can't go back all the way" What happened happened. Other things can be done but what isn't going to happen hopefully is that the land is taken again to give to someone else.

and i was just reading this little poem by Leonard
A Promise

I will never
return
the Holy Grail
to it's
"rightful owners"
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
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lizzytysh
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by lizzytysh »

As dylan would say "You can go back , but you can't go back all the way" What happened happened. Other things can be done but what isn't going to happen hopefully is that the land is taken again to give to someone else.
I'm not good with historical issues, so please correct me if I'm wrong. For me, this doesn't seem to be going back, but to be going forward. Has Palestine ever really been bi-national by peaceable agreement?


~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
lazariuk
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Re: Book of Mercy #27-

Post by lazariuk »

lizzytysh wrote: Has Palestine ever really been bi-national by peaceable agreement?
Not that I know of.
Everything being said to you is true; Imagine of what it is true.
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