poetic pearls

John the Shorts · Post by **John the Shorts** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 12:45 pm

Whi is innocence such a desired state

Innocence can be equated (at least a childs innocence) to ignorance, surely it is better to be aware - if we are truly aware and we accept responsibility for our own actions then the next step is to accept (some) responsibility for those of our fellow man.

Now before I start an outcry think of someone such as Robert Mugabe, are you responsible for his actions? The answer is off course you have, have you protested against his rule? Have you boycotted goods produced by his regime? Even if you have done the above have you done as much as you can? Could you have done more? Even if you have done everything you can these have consequences - If you have protested against the regime has this contributed to Mugabes decisions to ignore popular opinion, if you have boycotted products has this led to poverty? This is the Law of Unintended Consequences. Every action has consequences, some of these are the what we want (For example I am now writing this to post on the Leonard Cohen Forum but one unintended consequence is an increase in pollution, another is making my neck hurt (spondylitis) and so putting a drain on the NHS and, off course, maybe this time could be better spent taking action against a tyrant/oppressor)

Maybe it's better to be aware and feel guilt not just for what you have done but for what your fellow has done and then feel the guilt for what hasn';t been done. You can come to terms with guilt and attempt to do something about it (with it's attendant unintended consequences)

JTS (What a nice cheerful start to a Sunday morning)

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:07 pm

The Law of Unintended Consequences. We see that everywhere, don't we? And live it in our own, private lives, as well.

The innocence of the child I see as the natural, pure state that exists fresh from the "other side" before man's intellect and material world begin to clutter up and cover up spiritual truths and create obstacles to our connection within our own beings, the G..d state....then years later, we try to peel away those layers, that have gotten piled on by life and our connections in it, to get back to where we originally started, with a fresh view of the world and every one and every thing in it.

John the Shorts · Post by **John the Shorts** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 10:58 pm

Lizzy

We can never recapture that innocence as Real Life will stop us. We can't just relax and live for the day because if we do we're liable to get sacked, we live from Monday morning waiting for Friday night, but then Sunday night we start to worry about Monday morning.

Innocence is an artificial stae that we cannot maintain.

JTS (Already worrying about Monday morning)

Byron · Post by **Byron** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 11:16 pm

Yep, we're "only passing through."

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 12:40 am

In adult life perhaps innocence is to be congruent....

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 2:12 am

Still we try.....and through finding the holy within, we can see and feel the beauty as through the eyes and spirit of a child. It's a different kind of innocence, by necessity, as we cannot be a child, yet that spirit remains within us, and I feel it is attainable. Not easily so.

P.S. John ~ Yes, I'm looking at Monday, too.

linmag · Post by **linmag** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 3:20 am

It can be argued that we only appreciate the innocence of a child precisely because we have lost it. The child does not know that it is innocent, because it has never experienced anything else. If it has no experience, it has no opportunity to grow, and will remain forever innocent by default. The challenge for mankind, is so to learn by our experience, that we are able to attain a state of conscious grace. It is the very imperfections in the world around us that enable us to perceive what perfection could / should be.

"There is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in."

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:08 am

Excellent follow-up, Linmag.

Jo · Post by Jo » Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:46 am

Easy to see you lot don't have kids - you wouldn't be talking about the 'innocence' of children if you did.

Isn't this why the poor mites are dunked in water before they even open their eyes? To rid them of 'original sin'?

Not that I'm in the least bit superstitious you understand - just mentioning it.

Jo

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 2:17 pm

Don't know about your second line, Jo, but sure do like your first

.

witty_owl · Post by **witty_owl** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:33 pm

On children's innocence; I am reminded of some lines by Dan Fogelberg. I bring these words to text from my memory so the quote may not be completely accurate? From the album "The Innocent Age".

"Dawn like an angel lights on the step,
muting the morning she heralds.
Dew on the grass like the tears the night wept,
gone long before the day wears old.
Time stills the singing, a child holds so dear.
And I'm just beginning to hear.
Gone are the pathways, a child followed home.
Gone, like the sand and the foam.

Dan Fogelberg has over the years been one of those songwriters who by his songs seems to have first hand knowledge of my life experiences. Sometimes his songs send chills up my spine, like- how does he know the intimate details of my "secret life"?
Regards,

tom.d.stiller · Post by **tom.d.stiller** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:57 pm

Thanks for reminding me, Witty!

I agree with you on every word about Dan Fogelberg. I just made a mental note to listen to some of the records again very soon.

margaret · Post by **margaret** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 9:23 pm

When considering the loss of innocence I think of the shortened childhood of many children today as there is so much pressure on them to "grow up". There are now less years to enjoy childhood due to such pressures as exams and keeping up with their peers. Less time to play, unworried by events that previously only adults were aware of.

linmag · Post by **linmag** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 12:26 am

Jo Yes, perhaps we should be talking about the innocence of babies rather than children, but then we're going to get into all sorts of pernickety discussion about just when they lose their innocence, wich is really a side issue to the point under discussion.

Margaret Tell me about it

I have just despatched my son upstairs to start work on a piece of A level coursework which should have been handed in before Easter, and am trying to write this while helping my daughter to prepare for her German GCSE oral exam. This apparently necessitates playing Sting at full volume, so forgive me if I seem abrupt or have missed any typos. This has already taken me twice as long to type as usual.

Attainment targets have become the bane of the local primary school of which my husband is a governor. They have a dedicated and enthusiastic special needs teacher, so naturally attract larger than average numbers of children requiring this type of assistance. This inevitably affects the measurable performance as published in the 'league tables', resulting in a fall in intake. The school is therefore forced to choose between giving support where it is most needed or attracting 'high achievers' in order to maintain a good reputation through good performance results.

I'm sorry, this is not at all to the point of the discussion that was in progress - it's just one of my hobby horses.

Please feel free to ignore me.

John the Shorts · Post by **John the Shorts** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 12:31 am

Linmag

Welcome to the 21st Century (I don't mean this in a bitchy way) I'm afraid the needs of the majority are subjugated to the needs of those with Money.

JTS (I've seen the future, baby it is murder)

poetic pearls

innocence after all

Poetic pearls

innocence