my book

[Huck]

mat, you too miss the point.

I know how you feel about Lauries comments. He had a shot at one of my poems awhile ago. I got defensive. My mistake.

was it your mistake? why? who is to say whose opinion has authority? i find your comment a little sad.

It is no point trying to justify your work.

i really don't know what to say to this. why would you not try to justify your work, into which you have put your time and thought? i have taken on criticisms in the past, and gladly, but only when they have been cogent and constructive. the response to my poem here, on the other hand, has been brusque and peremptory. there is nothing to "move on" from.

i may post another, i'm not sure. but thanks for inviting me to share again, and for commenting with some sense of reason.

[mat james]

i find your comment a little sad.

sad is good.

[Manna]

Huck,
You keep bringing up that your poem isn't understood, but you also said that it means whatever I want it to mean. This is too open ended. You can have ambiguities, if there's a reason. Do you have any substantial arguments, or something you're trying to say with this?

Here's an example of word salad; it may sound cool, but it means whatever you want it to mean, which means that it means nothing:

breast of the moon (a 16 second poem by Manna)

green clouds of spaghetti afternoon
wisp the lonely midday moon
she stands with her breast in the porcelain cup
overflowing the milk already there

[blonde madonna]

Ocean-envious of the sixteen-year-olds
streaming coolly onto campus
on a mid-week morning,

I suppose it must be the manifest memory
conferred unconsciously
in the Morse code of their steps:

Label that time:
"before the pause",
and leave the desk
unlocked.

Welcome Huck!

I quoted some of the lines I particularly liked of your poem. I think I 'got' it but that doesn't bother me too much, I like indeterminancy and unexpected images.

For me it was a reminder of what it is like to be a high school teacher and some of the feelings I have experienced being an adult in a teenage world, seeing their potential and possibilities, thinking of your own long forgotten youthful aspirations.

Life (sigh).

[Huck]

i suppose what i am trying to say - though i am loathe to have to spell it out - is that it's all very well being nostalgic about the past, and seeking a reminder of it in the young around you, but we must not be too precious about our youth; it's been, it's gone, so be it. the "centre" of the poem is probably "Life is fair and the present is fine; the present is superior for it fathers all conjecture"... in other words, all we have is the right now, and wherever you are right now is the most important place you've ever been.

however, that is one way of looking at it. i don't believe the poet should necessarily be the authority on the meaning; if a reader was to say "no, i understood it differently", or took the whole thing to be ironic, i would say ok, fine, i am happy that at least something occurred for you.

i don't so much have a problem with it being misunderstood, or non-understood. what annoys me is that your response was to criticise because you misunderstood. if i read a poem and find it inscrutable, i either think ok, this poet is not for me, or i re-read, and re-read, until i have formulated my own meaning...or simply found myself enjoying the words!

i like your 16-second poem a lot! it's fun. but i don't necessarily agree with this:

it means whatever you want it to mean, which means that it means nothing

i don't think that's true just because you say it. furthermore, it allows no credit to the reader. anyway, what relation does it have to my poem? they are two very different pieces.

[Huck]

oh and thank you blonde madonna!

i'm pleased and find it interesting that a teacher saw some truth in my poem.

that final stanza in particular i am happy with; a friend the same age as me read the poem, quoted those lines back to me, and said he wished he could have expressed it that way himself. i guess i was on the right track.

cheers,
Huck

[Huck]

Byron, the poems you've posted are generally nice and inoffensive. your vocabulary is strong and i feel your love of language really shows through. one quibble i have is that your punctuation is inconsistent, and doesn't seem to follow any rule within the poem. perhaps i haven't considered your technique long enough, and, to be fair, i would have a hell of a time reading any contemporary poetry if i was to wince at unruly punc every time! in fact, people probably say the same about some of mine (i often omit punc marks from ends of lines, etc).

'Winter Feeding' - i have to say this is awfully long for a poem about birds. now, that probably sounds unfair and misinterpretive, but i fear you risk losing the reader before the piece is over.

'During the Falling of Leaves' - nice, and of a length more to my taste, but could you not come up with anything a little more inventive than "i think of you"? for perspective, a google search yields over a million results. or is it your intention for the line to have a plain-spoken, universal quality? i just think it is a bit of a shame that out of thousands of verbs, you pick the most obvious to express a sentiment already expressed in a thousand songs and poems.

anyway, you wanted some haiku. here are a few:

Describe to me your
past lovers whilst I drive them
out of your body.

The really sad thing
about Rimbaud's death is that
he never heard jazz.

Smoking cigarette
after cigarette, seeking
your curves in the smoke.

[Byron]

i would have a hell of a time reading any contemporary poetry if i was to wince at unruly punc every time!

I note your point about punctuation, however, please try to be grammatically correct when giving a serious critique. Your words would carry further that way and I for one would pay more attention. It jars on me when I have to stumble through the poor use of English, and I lose the thread. I'm not even referring to small 'i' or 'punc.'

[Huck]

Byron,

Welcome to the Internet! It's Fun, But a Minefield of Minor Errors!

you could at least quote this "poor use of English", rather than ignore almost all the points of my post and criticise my informal writing in a rather weak and vague manner.

p.s. who says this is a serious critique? i thought my comments were fairly light.

[Byron]

One could say of, '(my) rather weak and vague manner,' that 'it means whatever you want it to mean,'.

[Manna]

Huck,
I think your point that I need to do better at trusting the author is a valid point.

[Huck]

One could say of, '(my) rather weak and vague manner,' that 'it means whatever you want it to mean,'.

haha, touche.

[Huck]

Huck,
I think your point that I need to do better at trusting the author is a valid point.

it's down to your discretion, i suppose.

[Byron]

One could say of, '(my) rather weak and vague manner,' that 'it means whatever you want it to mean,'.

haha, touche.

I'm in a calm mood this afternoon, having attended and taken part in a short Service within the Chapel Room of my local hospital. Peace is precious. Giving is extremely rewarding. Light hearted banter is to be cherished. The three poems I gave you; all went on to be special in their own way. (a)Winning, (b)put to song in Germany, (c)spread amongst family and friends as requested by several Forum members in public and private messages. I gave the poems to those who happily took them.

Huck gave me his views. I accept them. I trust that he meant his views to be in an honest and open hearted fashion.

'if I were to wince.'

[Manna]

Not to beat it to death (well, ok, maybe to beat it to death), but I'm still not convinced. My confusion was regarding some of the specific phrasing, and your explanation (which didn't help and which I didn't need) didn't talk at all about your intent with most of those weird phrases. I have the same problem with Leonard's work sometimes. (Of course, you can take that however you want, but I do have my own thing that I mean by it. )

I thought you were posting for the purpose of workshopping. I think criticizing because I misunderstand is legitimate, and I tried to illustrate why.

As an author, what reason do I have to trust your writing? This is the only poem of yours I have seen. You may have others that appeal to me better, or are more sensibly written, though I hope if you post another, you start a new thread.