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I.12
In my own eyes I disgrace myself for trusting you, against all evidence, against the prevailing winds of horror, over the bully’s laughter, the torturer’s loyalty, the sweet questions of the sly.

I don't think it is the trust that dis graces himself in his own eyes but rather that it is against and over as if the evidence, the horror, the laughter, the loyality and the questions are not part of what is to be trusted.

I.12
Find me here, you whom David found in hell.

What seems like hell sometimes is how uncomfortable we can be with other people who are there but are withholding themselves, because your mind can always find a way for you to be judged when you are left open to every conceivable point of view.

Simon wrote:It seems I cannot react rationally to this one. I find it very powerfull. The rythm, the strong images...
All I can say is that for some reason it evoqued something of Lorca.

Welcome back, Simon. I can certainly relate to your feelings about this powerful prayer, and your difficulty in analyzing it. Thanks for the Lorca quotes.

Tom, the subject of the Holocaust may not be presented literally in this prayer, but it seems to be there, behind the images and the feeling of anger at the contradiction between the beauty of the world and its horrors. It should also be noted how, while searching for God’s mercy, he does not separate himself from suffering and insists on not being separated from his tears. He is always strongly grounded in the reality of this world and a total release from suffering, or nirvana, does not seem to be the object of his desire.

And Jack, thanks for pointing out the idea of truce in what we are doing. We seem to get gradually back on track, and I hope more people will join or rejoin.

It seems to me that our narrator is very angry, and this piece falls into the pattern of "how we can believe there's God when there's so much suffering in the world".

Also, I'm sorry for my ignorance, but is this literally reference: "Find me here, you whom David found in hell." Who was find in the hell by David, is that in the Bible/Old Testament/scriptures? If that adressee "you" is God, what this poem seems to suggest, what means that King David found him in the hell.

Also, there's a reoccurant motif, or phrase, in BoM, narrator's statement that his heart is "unemployed". This is rather obscure phrasing for me, while I usually decipher its meaning with the general impression that in context of this book heart is really and truly employed, or busy, only when it deals with the divine and while praying or seing the world thru the eyes of prayer (like in #10), so whatever secular or profane is done by the heart, it's actually an unemployment in the real matters of the heart and the soul.

Tom Sakic wrote:It seems to me that our narrator is very angry, and this piece falls into the pattern of "how we can believe there's God when there's so much suffering in the world".

The anger seems to be at himself for not seeing God in the suffering in the world. The book that Anjani once said that Leonard gave her makes the claim that everything is the will of God. It's a hard one to swallow but it is the viewpoint of some none the less.

Also, I'm sorry for my ignorance, but is this literally reference: "Find me here, you whom David found in hell." Who was find in the hell by David, is that in the Bible/Old Testament/scriptures? If that adressee "you" is God, what this poem seems to suggest, what means that King David found him in the hell.

Exactly and it implies that God is there as well.

Also, there's a reoccurant motif, or phrase, in BoM, narrator's statement that his heart is "unemployed". This is rather obscure phrasing for me, while I usually decipher its meaning with the general impression that in context of this book heart is really and truly employed, or busy, only when it deals with the divine and while praying or seing the world thru the eyes of prayer (like in #10), so whatever secular or profane is done by the heart, it's actually an unemployment in the real matters of the heart and the soul.

To me his use of unemployment is the inability to utilize the devotion to the Creator in his encounter with creation.[/quote]

lazariuk wrote:

Tom Sakic wrote: Also, I'm sorry for my ignorance, but is this literally reference: "Find me here, you whom David found in hell." Who was find in the hell by David, is that in the Bible/Old Testament/scriptures? If that adressee "you" is God, what this poem seems to suggest, what means that King David found him in the hell.

Exactly and it implies that God is there as well.

Sorry, I see that what you were looking for is what was literally referenced in scriptures which I completely ignored. I'll leave that for others.

Tom Sakic wrote:It seems to me that our narrator is very angry, and this piece falls into the pattern of "how we can believe there's God when there's so much suffering in the world".

Yes, that’s why I said earlier that he is asking for “hope beyond all hope, faith beyond all possibility of faith”, in spite of realizing that God cannot be justified, in view of all the horror in this world.

Also, I'm sorry for my ignorance, but is this literally reference: "Find me here, you whom David found in hell." Who was find in the hell by David, is that in the Bible/Old Testament/scriptures? If that adressee "you" is God, what this poem seems to suggest, what means that King David found him in the hell.

I didn’t comment earlier about David in hell, because frankly, I have no idea what’s he talking about… Well, perhaps some idea. I don’t know of any biblical or literary allusion specifically connecting David and Hell. However, in 2 Samuel 12, following the episode with Bathsheba, he loses the son born to him by her, and he grieves deeply, but seems to justify God. Later his life is spiraling downwards and he suffers a blow after blow. And, as always, we can also refer to the Psalms, especially those attributed to David, such as Psalm 18:5-6: “The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.” (I quote from KJV this time; modern translations do not use “hell” here, but rather the original Hebrew word “Sheol”, which means the world of the dead, where all mortals end up indiscriminately. The idea of “heaven” for the righteous and “hell” for the sinners does not appear in the Old Testament, and was invented later).

Also, there's a reoccurant motif, or phrase, in BoM, narrator's statement that his heart is "unemployed". This is rather obscure phrasing for me, while I usually decipher its meaning with the general impression that in context of this book heart is really and truly employed, or busy, only when it deals with the divine and while praying or seing the world thru the eyes of prayer (like in #10), so whatever secular or profane is done by the heart, it's actually an unemployment in the real matters of the heart and the soul.

N.B.: he is talking here about the “unemployment of my soul”, not the heart. Had he talked about the heart, I would have said that he refers to the insufficient ability to love, but in this context he seems to be talking about his insufficient ability to reach spiritual affinity with the divine. It goes back also to what he said in the beginning of the prayer, on the difficulty of justifying God, and that’s why he had “driven a wedge into your world”, falling on both sides of faith and unfaith.

Thank you, Jack, Doron,

well, my mistake re: heart/soul, but at least I wrote in the last sentence it's the unemployment of the heart or the soul, so that mistake doesn't change my understanding of this state of unemployment:-)

Actually, Jesus came down and appeared above the souls in the hell before he went upon the heaven, according to Christian tradition, but I don't think that's the reference. David finding God in the hell, that's obscure. If that "you" was the woman, Muse, then I'd easily read it metaphorically, that David has found Batsheba in the hell ( = everyday world), but this addressee has to be God.

Very interesting discussions so far of 1-12. I have been thinking about it for several days now with the intention of posting something. Thank you all for helping to clarify possible meanings.

Simon,

I know that Leonard admires the imagery from Gacela of the Dark Death as he quotes this line from it frequently:

Another line "The morning through fistfuls of ants at my face" It's a terrible idea. But this was a universe I understood thoroughly and I began to pursue it, I began to follow it and I began to live in it.

from his introduction to Take This Waltz from Austin 1988.

Doron,

This verse reminds me of Eliot's Ash Wednesday not simply because of the Ezekiel reference:

And God said
Shall these bones live? shall these
Bones live?

but probably more so because of the introspective questioning that takes place. Eliot is careful to reference Dante and his trip through Purgatory. Each of the seven deadly sins that Dante lists is reflected in Eliot's poem and now I wonder if some of the lines,

I pace the corridor between my teeth and my bladder, angry, murderous, comforted by the smell of my sweat.

reflect, also, these internal vices...lust, gluttony, etc. And, Eliot, too is torn between the internal and the external source of evil. Even, if evil is a wholly human construct how could God create a creature capable of conceiving and carrying out the Holocaust?

O my people, what have I done unto thee.

Both the narrator of 1-12 and the narrator of Ash Wednesday are extremely conflicted.

I have a very meager knowledge of Ezekiel but wasn't it written for the Isrealites who were in exile in Babylon? And wasn't part of the poignancy of the exile that they had become absorbed in the culture of Babylon and were no longer simply slaves held captive but held captive through their own complicity?

Jack,

Nice catch on the "milky town." That song invokes Hydra for me as does much of this poem.

I have more to add, but need to go now.

Joe

Joe,
You’re right about Ezekiel. Indeed, his prophecy refers to the return of the exile from Babylon to the land of Israel, but in later generations this prophecy was also understood more broadly, as referring to the hope of the resurrection of the dead. For some people it acquired an especially poignant meaning after the Holocaust and the sight of the crushed bones at the death camps.

Your allusion to Eliot is really great; I admire it very much.

Doron,

For some people it acquired an especially poignant meaning after the Holocaust and the sight of the crushed bones at the death camps.

Several of the people attending the Berlin event this year had relatives killed in the death camps. It is difficult to comprehend the horror.

Here is a link to the Ash Wednesday poem, for those who might be interested. http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/ash-wednesday/

Tom,

When I saw the line,

Find me here, you whom David found in hell

I, also, immediately wondered about the reference and tried to do a search to no avail. Now I think that the "you" like many of the pronouns is deliberately vague in order to suggest the possibility of multiple meanings. I think that it is the same vague "you" that the narrator uses here:

You mock us with the beauty of your world

and certainly could refer to God or, indeed, to the reader. It certainly resonates with the line from If It Be Your Will,

Let your mercy spill On all these burning hearts in hell

which depending on your interpretation can have many meanings. For some reason I tend to identify "hell" as a mental state here on earth-those experiencing depression (by the rivers dark in Babylon) may agree.

Joe

Hi Boho!

Thanks for the references. I'm glad you and joining the discussion.

Joe

+/-

< * Lizzy inserts mild, rather irrelevant observation * >

[That was tricky, Joe... thanking BoHo, two minutes prior to her arrival ~ so, tell me, WILL I be going to Hydra this year... ~ or do you charge a fee for such matters ?]

[ ~ Lizzy]

Lest anyone think I'm prescient, her post was here and then it was gone (probably for editing). Anyway great to have you...know you are busy...but contribute when you can.

All the best,

Joe