Book of Mercy #6-7

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

lizzytysh wrote: I've had the 'normal' sexual conflict, where I've prayed for 'strength in resisting' my passion
~ Lizzy
I was always told that you get what you pray for. Do you think it would have made any difference if instead of praying for strength to resist you prayed to redeem or sublimate or understand your passion?

Remember if its not light - drop it.

And thanks for seeing that there is mystery around. I wish I knew a way to show you how wonderfully mysterious are some of the things you give me just by being you. That means a lot to me. I think I experienced too much of wanting people to be who they are not so that I can get what I want.

jack
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Joe Way
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Post by Joe Way »

It's taken me awhile to catch up with all the interesting observations that everyone keeps adding.

There are a couple of aspects of I-6 that I think are worth mentioning. The rude chair of praises contrasts nicely with the throne and the kingdom and probably refers to the chair that Roshi used in the zendo also.

The words "trapped in loneliness" and "walled place" certainly bring to mind the partitions that are referred to earlier like the leaf and the veil.

Lizzy, I thought your observations were excellent-no need to apologize for anything.

Mat, your poem and observation of Adam "freed from" the ideal animalistic world of Eden is interesting.

Jack, your prayer story brings to mind something that I once read about Gandhi. It is said that he would force himself to sleep next to beautiful, naked girls to test his discipline. We will probably never know how successful he was in combating his urges and the urges of the young ladies.

This all brings to mind the words from Isaiah that the lion will lie down with the lamb etc. The lion would never do this in its natural state. Nor would we place any moral judgment upon the lion eating the lamb. Adam and Eve cover their nakedness after eating from the tree of knowledge.

Joe
Last edited by Joe Way on Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

Joe Way wrote:Jack, your prayer story brings to mind something that I once read about Ghandi. It is said that he would force himself to sleep next to beautiful, naked girls to test his discipline. We will probably never know how successful he was in combating his urges and the urges of the young ladies.
well the young ladies might have been put off by his case of Halitosis which might have been caused by his drinking his own urine.
But he was a Super guy
and thought by many to be a Mystic
though he had very callosed feet owing to his walk to the sea
he was still a very fragile person

I guess you might say he was a

Super callosed fragile mystic except for halitosis

Jack
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Sometimes things just come together too perfectly, don't they, Jack [and Joe :wink: ]?

Thank you, Joe, for your support :) . You can imagine how much I appreciate it. My goal is just to successfully audit this course.

Thank you, too, Jack, for your immensely complimentary comments made more than several postings back. I appreciate your validation.


~ Lizzy
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

I was always told that you get what you pray for. Do you think it would have made any difference if instead of praying for strength to resist you prayed to redeem or sublimate or understand your passion?

Remember if its not light - drop it.

And thanks for seeing that there is mystery around. I wish I knew a way to show you how wonderfully mysterious are some of the things you give me just by being you. That means a lot to me. I think I experienced too much of wanting people to be who they are not so that I can get what I want.

jack
Hi Jack ~

It's not light, but then eagle feathers rarely are... and once given, I won't drop them :wink: .

I've been told the same thing and have watched it happen, as well. What you say doesn't strike a nerve, but it does strike a chord. Adult to adult, man to woman, lover to lover, it's a valid question and worthy of answer. Yes. It would have made a difference. I believe that. Of what value virtue? Is there a point of diminishing returns? I think maybe. Redeem, sublimate, understand. I believe I was wildly successful in sublimation. The other two, much less so.

"I wish I knew a way to show you . . . to be who they are not so that I can get what I want" begs for details. If none appear [not necessarily here], it's okay, as it could destroy the mystery; please just accept my thank you. Your general comments mean a lot to me, just as they are... feathers don't get crushed that easily, either; and you already survived the fall :) .


~ Lizzy
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mat james
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Post by mat james »

Joe,
Mat, your poem and observation of Adam "freed from" the ideal animalistic world of Eden is interesting.
Joe, that is the exact opposite of what I was suggesting.

I was suggesting that once sent "east of Eden", Adam was no longer "free", as he was now chained to :
judgement
guilt
sin

I interpret Leonard's quest in the verse you were refering to, as the journey back to Eden and freedom. Freedom from the judgemental perspectives that are the ongoing faeces caused by the eating of the "fruit of knowledge of good and evil"
It is important to note that Adam and Eve were alone in that original Eden....no other humans to complicate matters. Therefore to venture back to Eden and freedom is also to venture back to alone-ness.
This aloneness with the creator is probably what all the hermit-mystics are seeking, no matter what culture they are "flee-ing" from.
And the Serpent (reason) is still there also; but, believe it or not, ignored!

this time.
:o

I suspect that this understanding is what Leonard is half-consciously alluding to, among the ferns of Eden.
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
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Joe Way
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Post by Joe Way »

Jack,

You're lucky I like bad puns!

Mat,

I knew what you meant, I just didn't quote you very well.

Joe
Tchocolatl
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Post by Tchocolatl »

You can see the picture too Lazariuk? Where did you see anger against you? I was just worry that the information that i want continues to flow here, that's all. Nothing against you, everything for what I want. I guess that people who provide it can manage with pollution in the thread and stay alive anyway.

Sorry people if I just read quickly in diagonal some posts - but I see that there is this Dylan/Cohen afffair running again. Here is a rather rude opinion in this never ending story :

Quote:
Originally Posted by sentient
Dylan was miles better, all that Leonard Cohen did was to lighten up and take some of the load off Dylans lyrics. He was at best not league 1 but the top of league 2.


There is no meaning to Dylan's songwriting. He said it himself. That's part of the beauty of his music.
But we're talking about the poetic quality of lyrics.
And if you compare Cohen's poetry to Dylan's...
Well, there is no comparison.
Dylan pulled shit out his ass. Beautiful shit, no doubt, but shit nonetheless.
I, personally, find so much more meaning in Cohen's words. Not because they're more coherent, but because I can tell he meant something in those words.
They're very important to me, words, and I sometimes feel like Dylan took them for granted.
- ConeyIslandOTheMind

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthr ... ge=2&pp=10

And I like this one about "The butcher":
(from the same source)

"I thought this to be one of my better reads,
I say leave it for I don't understand as too
who wrote it, or if it was your own work,
it compliments whichever."
- Icurus

Yes. I like to know about other fans' opinions and I look at them everytime I can.

In this regard there is info that I keep in store :

"Almost half-a-century later, Canada’s most revered poet has contributed more of his literary past to U of T: a staggering 140 banker’s boxes that trace his life from bohemian writer to iconic singer-songwriter to Buddhist monk. “U of T’s been very kind to me over the years – and when I really needed it. They bought manuscripts when I was about 25 years old – and they did that twice – so I feel very grateful to the university and to the library,” says Cohen, 71. U of T archivist Richard Landon and his wife, Massey College librarian Marie Korey, packed the first 99 boxes during a visit to Los Angeles in 2005.

There is correspondence with poets Irving Layton and Allen Ginsberg, (...).There is also an abundance of fan mail that ranges “from the serious to the seriously disturbed,” jokes Landon.

http://www.magazine.utoronto.ca/06autumn/gifts.asp
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

lizzytysh wrote:"I wish I knew a way to show you . . . to be who they are not so that I can get what I want" begs for details.
~ Lizzy
Hi Lizzy.
I would be very happy to try. As usual, it involves a little story. Many years ago when my son Jacob was 4 years old we had an incredible day together that I will always remember as the day I awoke. A lot happened that day and maybe one day I will try to put it into a book but for now there was one small part that I want to tell you about.
Jacob led me to a tree in a park, he wanted to get into it to play and so I helped him, some other kids came around and I helped them too into the tree. Stuff happened and eventually it was just Jacob in the tree and he came across some seeds and started playing with them by throwing them to the ground. They were the kind of seeds that twirled to the ground and so they were fun. I told him that they were seeds and that every tree had them as it was autumn.
He wanted to see for himself and so we went to the next tree and he couldn’t find any until I pointed out that pine cones were also seeds. This made the game a bit more fun and so we went from tree to tree finding seeds that were cones, some that were berries, some fruits etc. He got pretty good at it then I pointed out that bushes had seeds too and watched as he started exploring the bushes. I thought as I stood under a tree “wow how cool it that, I get to watch as the universe teaches him something about life” then I looked at the tree that I was under and noticed something that I felt the universe wanted me to notice.
The number of seeds that a tree produces. I knew that it was a principal that universe always operates in the most economic fashion, the law of economy. Why then are there so many seeds? It seemed like such a waste to me. I knew at the time that this was something requiring further thought. Over the years thoughts did come and for one I started eating a lot more seeds and felt that was a good decision. Started thinking about what seeds of opportunity it would be best to pick around the same time I heard it said “There is no opportunity so great as that afforded by hurt”. That helped me make some decisions that I felt satisfied over the years were good decisions. I started thinking about this idea of waste. In a way i felt that I was waste. It seemed that the universe was showing me so many things that I had completely no idea of what to do with. “What a waste I thought.” Why not show these things to someone much more capable, connected, and powerful than me? So I figured mystery is mystery and if i couldn’t figure it out I might as well just go along with it and figured if the universe was operating like it could afford to waste then i would too and started wondering what was it that I had so much of that I could afford to waste it. I was hoping my answer would be love but I wanted my answer to be an honest one so I kept on looking. What I finally came to see was that there was something that I had bucket loads of, so much so that I felt it was something that I could afford to spend quite freely. It was curiosity.
And so it happened that when confronted by events i got stingy with stuff that maybe I had plenty of but not as much as curiosity, stuff like guilt, judgment, hate, anger etc. Instead I just tried spending my curiosity and kept on trying to understand what I was being confronted with. The good stuff too was kept in check, stuff like joy, laughter, love, passion. I did notice that as I spent my curiosity that the good stuff seemed to be increasing while the bad stuff diminished.
I use that tree for a lot of other stuff as well. When I look out at the vastness of the starry heavens I can’t help but feel that this little planet is also a seed that likely there are plenty more of. The cold hard fact is that we just might not make it and it can become a seed that is gone to waste, and that likely the universe is designed in such a way that it can manage just fine without us. Something to think about.
Lizzy you bring to mind that tree because you are like it. You talk to everybody who is willing to talk to you. Everyone can pick of your fruit. I saw that was sometimes criticized and wished i had been around to defend you but you seemed to take it ok. I really like the fact that when i talk to you that i don’t have to feel i am talking to someone who has to make a great effort to talk to me. Because I so often enjoyed what you had to say I must admit that the thought crossed my mind that I should try to figure out a way to stop you talking to so many others so that you could pay more attention to me but quickly saw the foolishness of that. I think I get so much from you because you do talk to so many. Which brings us to another beauty about you.
You mentioned something about my surviving a fall and i am a little interested in its connection to the myth of falling from grace. I latch unto the myth by a sense that I have eaten from the forbidden fruit given to me by women and my falling was a result but also feeling that the fruit nourished me all the way and that I kept eating of it till I got right down to the pit. Cute eh?
Anyway so here we have me in this group of many others writing about my fall, my fruit, my prayers and soon I’ll probably be writing about my redemption, my angels, my saving graces etc. and it probably might seem to others that I think that my prayers are just as important as Leonard’s. Oh the nerve of me!!
It’s my little world that I brought in here, my little domain and it gets me thinking about you who kept right on loving while I went on a fast and that now I am so thin and your love is so vast. And because you bring to mind a tree I think well there were probably plenty of fruits on that tree to go around and it makes me think that there must be plenty of room here for everyone to bring their world in. So Lizzy your being here makes me feel it is alright to be here as completely as possible.
Something else you wrote to me really struck a chord. You said that probably Leonard expected that there would be people who would be deeply studying his works for years to come. This took my mind back to an earlier part of the book where he wrote “This is what it is like to study without a friend” So, very early in the book he acknowledges that studying without a friend is not the way to go and so if he expects that people will be studying his book then likely he wrote it in such a way that it makes it easy to study with friends. Since men and women are often friends I think he would nicely accommodate that as well. I mean thats what I would do if I were him and had his skills but I am not him and I don’t know for sure if this will be so.
Lizzy I think from what you once wrote me that you have this idea that I know this book and have studied it. I should point out that I don’t know it. I had it once a long time ago but gave it away. There is one page that I copied out and do know something about but that comes much later in the book. I get the pages as they are posted here and pretty well know nothing about them until I look at them. So when I suggest that Leonard wrote it with certain considerations I do so only from a trust that he is an extremely considerate man.
I have this intuition that if all of us as a community look at this book it will be a very tender uplifting experience, but if we look at it as a group we won’t get that much out of it. Again I see this as something that you can probably be very good at. that is I think that your being around will really help turn a group into a community. I am well aware that my writing here is probably getting pretty annoying to some of the other men who are probably thinking I am too full of myself. Maybe you can help me with that. I hope they aren’t listening. It will be a little embarrassing.
Do you think there is any chance that i can get them to talk about what prayers mean to them personally? Is that too personal a thing to ask another man? You can reply to this privately if you wish. I think it would be uplifting to hear about other people’s experiences with prayer. Do you think it is an inappropriate subject to talk here about what it means to be a community as opposed to a group. I think Leonard seems really big on community.

Jack
“You can be the subject, and poetry can be the object. You can keep the subject/object relationship, and that's completely legitimate. It is the point of view of the scholar. But I wanted to live this world. When I read the psalms or when they lifted up the Torah, that kind of thing sent a chill down my back. I wanted to be the one who lifted up the Torah. I wanted to be in that position. When they told me I was a Kohen, I believed it. I didn't think it was some auxiliary information. I wanted to wear white clothes and go into the Holy of Holies and negotiate with the deepest resources of my soul. So I took the whole thing seriously. I was this little kid and whatever they told me in these matters resonated, and I wanted to be that figure who sang, "This is the Tree of Life." I tried to become that, and that world seemed open to me, and I was able to become that in my own modest way. I became that little figure to myself. So that was poetry to me, and I think it's available to everybody.”
.... Leonard Cohen
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Hi Jack ~

The only responses I have time for at this very moment are thank you and where is the mistletoe? It is the holidays, right :) ?

A most magical experience for a father and son to share... with you and the universe teaching and showing, as you and your son learned and applied. Way too much content and substance for a quick reply, so for now this has to be it. I'm due elsewhere, but didn't want to just let it sit.

Your stories are like parables. The way you use them is innovative and gratifying. I hope you'll continue to share more.

I, too, would love to see how others' prayers have been. What is more personal than a person's prayers? I hope the resistance is not so tightly bound that it won't happen. I've heard that poetry, to be poetry, must be universal in its content. With that in mind, Leonard's words being selected and arranged such that people could, across the years, apply them to their own lives would seem to have been part of Leonard's own plan. The sharing of how our individual lives are inspired and informed by his words seems to me to dovetail well with what his words meant to him when he wrote them. It could lead to a deep and beautiful sharing of which Leonard would approve.

Happy and Safe New Year, Jack.


Love,
Lizzy
Tchocolatl
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Post by Tchocolatl »

Lazariuk wrote :
Because I so often enjoyed what you had to say I must admit that the thought crossed my mind that I should try to figure out a way to stop you talking to so many others so that you could pay more attention to me but quickly saw the foolishness of that. I think I get so much from you because you do talk to so many. Which brings us to another beauty about you.
What a beautiful piece, how great it is to see that one recognizes that loving, liking, appreciate, etc. is that. A part of that.

But for this :
"Lizzy you bring to mind that tree because you are like it. You talk to everybody who is willing to talk to you. Everyone can pick of your fruit. I saw that was sometimes criticized and wished i had been around to defend you but you seemed to take it ok."

Take care, man, Lizzy has certainly an amazing talent to socialize with others in order to make it pleasant and cool (as long as everything goes as she wants.) She is on of the best at this that I have even seen.

But. Because there is a but and another side to every reality : not only does she talk to everybody who is willing to talk to her, but she can force her way into people who are not even interested to talk to her and manage with some of them to obtain things that she wants from them, including their docility to do whatever she asks them to do here. Turn to the left, bow, turn to the right, now. Sit. Give the paw. If you don't I'll punish you. It is a game for her, she is so good at it. The problem is that she is not really care for people, it is just a social mask. She does not seem to make effort to talk with people because she does not make effort to talk with people, she just don't care for people she just care to make solid links with people in order to use this link for herself, the heck with others. Others? What do you mean.

Also she does not spit on telling "a lie or two", small and big. It does not embarrased her at all.

The funny thing is that I was thinking exaclty like you when I just arrived, I even take her defense while others were acting like me, I could not believe that this dove could be what they were saying, really.

But I discover a dove in wolfs clothing (hehe) because I am really not a docile person and did not obey her one time, she attacked. She did hit me under the belt without any kindness, in fact I was under the impression that she was not aware that I was human, but that she was thinking I was just an object, that she can broke because it was not working to her liking.

Her kindness is not waste into a shower of seeds of generosity to the world: it is a mean of control. Nothing is waste, everything is an investment.

There is no waste of seeds there in this regard. Now you know, if you want to stay blind and experiment by yourself, it is a free world. But watch out : all berries are not sherries. Some look like that like sisters of mercy but are poisoned.

I tell you that she is not the all and only kind woman she is showing you off now. I wish that you could have fun with her but don't trust her without keeping in the back of your mind, that she is not all good and otherwise, you may regret it.

I don't say that she is a bad person, as I don't believe in "good" and "bad" person, we are both made of light and shadows, and we are, or not of same wavelenghts of others. But I do believe that some people are going into more or less toxic behaviors.

I appreciate her when she is not going into too much to toxic behaviors, but when she start, really I am tired to see her act performed on innocents. You know when they say that it's look too good to be true, well, it is. She is. So take care and good continuation of your relationship with her, but now that you know I hope you won't swallow any poisonness seeds that grow around you.

Now I feel like Salman Rushdie. If I live to see 2007 here, I'll be lucky! :lol:
DBCohen
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Post by DBCohen »

A request:

I bring this up reluctantly, but it seems to me that I must do it at this point. I’ve just went again through pages 10-13 of this thread, and I found precious little in them about Book of Mercy and a lot about Everything Else. I don’t want to spoil the party, but I really don’t see why it has to take place in this room. There are thousands other rooms on this Forum, and anyone can open a new one whenever they wish. Let’s not hear complaints about excluding people or shutting them up. It is simply a matter of staying in focus. I think, for example, of a new person joining us, with a real interest in the book, going through this very long thread, bewildered at what they find (it happened to me too when I checked some of the old threads on the Forum that looked interesting; usually they start focused, and then they stray in all directions. I guess that’s part of the nature of this medium, but it doesn’t have to be like that all the time).

Why don’t someone start a new thread, for example, “Book of Mercy Offshoots” or something like that, that would run parallel with this one. On this current thread we can go on focusing on the book (and there is such a long way to go yet), and on the other one we can include all the associations, stories, love letters and acrimonious slanders to our hearts’ content. Really, I don’t have anything against free association; I’m just trying to create some order.

I know several people will disagree, but there are others who will support this idea. Let’s not start a war between feuding factions. Let’s not even create factions. Let’s stay all together, but in two adjoining rooms, going into each one to meet the others according to circumstances. I believe that would be the reasonable thing to do at this stage.

Many thanks for your consideration,

Doron
JiminyC
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Concur

Post by JiminyC »

I'm ready for 1.7, in total agreement with DB, and won't even dare say I was bored with 1.6. :D
DBCohen
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Post by DBCohen »

Were you really bored by I.6, James? It is somewhat more concise and direct than some of the other psalms, but I still find much beauty in it. Anyway, something tells me you’ll be quite intrigued by I.7. However, it’ll be another few days before I can introduce it, unless there is someone else who would like to do it this time. Simon is not back yet, unfortunately.
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Post by JiminyC »

It does make for nice reading looking back over it now DB, although as you say concise, but it certainly caused a stir; I am looking forward to reading more, but in the meantime shall endeavour to make the effort to pursue the dialogue up to my point of arrival.

Happy New Year to you, and all and sundry, may every positive energy, all the light of God, and great things rain down upon us all in 2007; I believe it will be a very special year for our little planet.

Cheers,
James.
:D
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