You only go to the poetry section occasionally? Who knows what you may have missed.
I also can't imagine that a single poster, there or in any other section, is awaiting your permissional directive to continue doing so.
My, you are impressed by the published "stamp-of-approval" in writing. What a shame. Don't know what you're missing.
Try some homeopathic remedies for your stomach....a tad of bad poetry oughta do you just fine. The basic principle is that a highly-dilute form of that which made you ill, will also make you well. Don't seek YDF's counsel on it, however....he's definitely allopathic in his thinking. You could also take two aspirin and call him in the morning.
Poor Miranda. You inadvertently stirred up a hornet's nest.
Dear Lizzy,
I afraid I'm going to have to agree with Miranda on this.
I am as egalitarian as the next sans-culotte but I can't say something is poetry when it isn't poetry. The objective standards I (and others) use for judging poetry are not our own and they are not arbitrary or pulled out of thin air. In the west, these standards have been hammered out for a couple of thousand years. In the east, a couple of millenium more. (And these standards have nothing to do with form, meter, rhyme schemes, word structure or the rigid adherence to any particular school of dogma). You are right that the nature of poetry is elusive. But that doesn't mean that it is indefinable. Otherwise my shopping list would qualify as poetry.
Miranda's comment about drowning in molasses struck a chord with me. We live in a subjective age and emotion is it's currency. So, for many writers an outburst of feeling is good poetry. Especially when it elicits a corresponding emotional response. That is why the modern reader prefers to use the words "like" and "dislike" instead of "good" and "bad" in their critique of poetry. "Good" and "bad" require an objective standard and this is anathema to our "I'm O.K. Your O.K." culture.
I'm not suggesting that poetry should be dry as dust and lacking in "feelings." I just wish there were a little more discernment and a little more discipline to go with all that emotion.
Its sad to see the hornets sting and attack when people should be more laid back. What is one person's meat is anothers poison. The Poetry section is there for all to use, most of us are amateurs who have a common intrest in leonard. Some will like the work and others hate it. IT IS UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL to either examine the section or to ignore. If it is rubbish, fine. People still have the right to be critics on anything posted. Others may like it and this is fine also, THEY ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO COMMENT.
This Forum i believe is a democracy and space has been afforded to the would be poets. This Forum should not be a personal battleground although healthy debate is encouraged. I think it's time to stop this thread as a platform of attacks on each other. God knows there is enough attacks about to be unleashed in the world very soon.
Georges
I am a right bad ass, dankish prince and I love my Violet to bits.
Linda ~ If that's what you must rely upon as a "reason," then so be it. If Miranda wants to leave the Forum, as opposed to leaving the Poetry section [that she deems unfit for human consumption, regardless of me, where I don't even post poetry], then again that's her choice. If my responding to attacks on the offerings of others there causes her to leave, again ~ choice. Because you choose to use the opportunity for your own [repetitive] venting does not undermine the validity of the stand I've taken regarding her condescending views, presented without a single word of substantiation. Does your thinking not go beyond old issues? You're resorting to the "lowest common denominator" for your "argument." Does taking a strong stand on something drive others away, whilst some even more strongly "trash"? Oh well. Just as Miranda has the "right" to say no one but Andrew writes poetry, I have the "right" to tell Miranda she's............and have. If you can't take the heat........don't start cooking. For anyone unfamiliar, this is a take-off on the phrase, "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen [generally implying that if you don't want to participate in what's going on, don't complain, just leave]." To tailor it even further for Miranda, "If you can't take the heat, don't start frying [the works of others]. When your sooooooo hot oil spatters, you may start a grease fire." They tend to get hot and are difficult to put out, water only making them worse. If you choose to leave, please be sure to take your kitchen utensils with you.
Sore Loser ~ The definitions of "good" and "poetry" have changed with the times. Ground is continually broken, "rules" forever changed; ee cummings, free verse, etc. What is considered good and "legit" vary through many variables. Now, you're going to make a sweeping statement that meter, etc. make no difference as to what constitutes poetry? Then, you're going to comment along the lines of Miranda, but also without any substantiation. Well, "put your money where your mouth is" applies here in the sense of "put your analysis where your mouth is." If she deems it bad poetry, expose her own thinking and judgement abilities by relating her reasons for and analysis of such a judgement. If she feels incapable of that, at least do it with what she deems "good" poetry. That will, at least, be a small assignment. Likewise, with you, since meter, et al don't play a part, give us your specific reasons why this or that is not poetry ~ and this or that is poetry. If there's anywhere that rules are commonly broken, it's poetry. Some will deal with emotion, some won't. Some will create emotion, even though it topically won't appear to be going for that.
I have beside me my "Fundamentals of Poetry" handbook booklet, published in Chicago in 1963. It's only 32 pages long and is filled with meter, rhyme, metaphor, etc. things that relate to poetry. Don't know if Allen Ginsburg or Leonard's varieties of poetry are included. You two seem to think that poetry is the highest form of writing, achievable only by a select few. Dang, don't you wish the world would line up with your and Miranda's nebulous, critical view of the world and how it does not meet your personal standards?
~Lizzytysh
Last edited by lizzytysh on Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
i think this thing about poetry section has gone a little bit too far. i've tried and read some of the poetry there, and i didn't find anything of greater interest. i think poetry should be deep and hounting. it should be read and read over and over... this sort of expendable words is of no interest to me. therefore, i don't go there any more.
the rest of you should do the same. those of you who like it: post and read. those who don't... nobody is making you read it. those of you who want to be poets should post and receive feedback.
Nothing is so poor and melancholy as art that is interested in itself and not in its subject
George Santayana's, Life of Reason.
"Let there be light!" said God, "and there was light!"
"Let there be blood!" says man, and there's a sea!
Lord Byron's, Don Juan; Canto VII.
A line will take us hours maybe:
Yet if it does not seem a moment's thought,
Our stitching and unstitching has been naught.
Yeats' Adam's Curse.
Discuss the above in your own words, in not less than 'n' words.
And so I "Exit, pursued by a bear".
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
As I watched scary news on CNN this morning I thought of LC's classic line from This Isnt China.....'Tell me what the fuck kind of morning it is ?'
I guess there are bigger problems than bad poetry, bad language and personal vendettas on an internet message board.
But I s'pose it makes an interesting thread....
I believe it just may, Tony. I've noticed, in my own forays into bookstores [new and used] that when I go to the various sections, I find more than one book there, by more than one author. I've also noticed that some types of books/stories are more popular in some geographical locales, age groups, etc. ad infinitum, than in others. I've also noticed that writers are encouraged to keep trying [when it comes to getting published] and have read/heard many stories of how after 50+ rejections [movie-making, recording, etc. included], someone finally said yes and lo ~ a star/a successful piece was born. What did that say about the judgement of the previous naysayers? I've also noticed how some unmarketed musicians/singers/songwriters perform "better" than some of those who have made it big and are marketed "successes." Not everyone who has talent ends up being recognized for it, in their lifetime or possibly ever. What does that say to me? It's all about individuality. What does individuality say to me? It's all about life.
Interesting point about these people who make it after trying for so long. However I suspect this is a subjective point of view. Try this simple experiment. Every time you watch a movie 20 years old or older look at the credits of the lesser parts, the 'bit' parts if you will. These people doubtless thought that this was their break, their path to the big time. But it isn't. You won't have heard of most of them. George Clooney in Attack of the Killer Tomatoes is the exception not the rule. This goes for writers, poets etc... Please feel free to keep writing drivel, but people should not kid themselves that they are going to be 'discovered'. It is only worth it if the writing is what satisfies them, not the recognition.
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