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G'day Diane,

G-d is not exclusive of Love or Bliss or whatever. It is integral to it. I do not pretend to worship a deity that punishes sin and won't forgive. Now, where I've come to in my Life, if I was Abraham when asked to murder Isaac I would say, "fuck off". The Abrahamic religions are historical, they point to the unnameable. So do the Eastern traditions and also many smaller religions. It is this 'force' (for want of a better word) I find peace in. There is something mystical in life. Affirmative and nurturing. If you listen out for it, watch closely, it reveals itself. It is Love; and more. Trying to clothe it in a language is impossible. People spend their entire lives trying to 'get it', yet a baby swallow knows. Perhaps you can call it consciousness. Maybe you are right; just Love...

Take care

Boss

Poetically spoken position on behalf of love . In balance and beautiful, Vincent.

~ Lizzy

Dear Fljots, my last paragraph was meant a little tongue in cheek, but I do believe it is one way of putting it.

Boss, I wish more people would tell their god to "fuck off" when he tells them to do inhumane things. I don't really think I disagree with the essence of what you are saying, nor, as you suggest, you with me. I feel we all have a longing for G_d, whatever God/god/spirituality means for each of us. If you define mystical as being a communion with nature/a sense of oneness which cannot easily be explained/something beyond words but not separate from the reality we are part of, then I most certainly believe in the 'mystical'.

Vince, yes, I think your poem is lovely too.

To repeat Lizzy:

"Love is the only engine of survival." ~ Leonard Cohen
"They may say I'm a dreamer... but I'm not the only one..." ~ John Lennon

Love,

Diane

I wish more people would tell their god to "fuck off" when he tells them to do inhumane things.

Exactly, Diane. Short and sweet. Well, okay, short . How about short and true . Simple solution to that wayward "God" giving bad directions. People have done that with me when I've stopped them on the street to ask for them, and on its relative scale, got just as lost.

~ Elizabeth

Lizzy, I was using Boss’s phrase in a reply to him, but yes it is quite short and to the point! We all know the number of atrocities that are committed in the name of religion. Thank God I’m an atheist .

Diane

Boss wrote

G-d is not exclusive of Love or Bliss or whatever. It is integral to it. I do not pretend to worship a deity that punishes sin and won't forgive.

Of course not, Boss! You, yourself would want to punish the sin and not to forgive. Why would you worship something, when there is you-to be worshiped? God is not exclusive of being Love itself, because there is you-the only source of love.
Ain't you a smart one, Bossman? I see you!!!

Boss wrote

Now, where I've come to in my Life, if I was Abraham when asked to murder Isaac I would say, "fuck off".

Right, Boss-tell God to fuck off. How very smart! And God tells you right back- "Fuck off, you too, Bossman!. I've given you a brain, to hold in some thought there, but you can't do that! So, fuck off and get out of my face." So, Bossman fucks off, and now- here he is,,,

Elizabeth, Diane,
thank you ladies


stand well back...this could turn ugly

Earlier this evening, I caught the end of a TV programme called Jonathan Miller's Disbelief. It was so interesting I made up my mind to watch the next programme in the series.

In the bit I saw, Miller (who was taking about Greek philosophers possibly being the first atheists) quoted Epicurus:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”


and someone else from way back then who said:

"Fear is the mother of all gods."

It is also, imo, the mother of hatred and prejudice and intolerance - of which there is far too much in the world - and which is probably engendered more by religion than by any other other cause.

NOW stand back Vince.

Fljots- there is an answer for Epicures-which of course, he knew quite well, Your quotation comes from text, taken out of the context, that is a little dirty secret of all quotations. The answer is-the free will. Human being has a free will and a free choice. God does not manipulate a puppet. Human being is created with a dignity of free will. That is all there is to it.

Fljots, I think that all religions began with the impulse for spirituality, and some (most ?) then later got hijacked for political ends, and to justify war, bigotry and all other sorts of horrors. But I don't think that that is, to be fair, the 'fault' of religion, but of human nature. Religion is a very good place to hang your predjuces, because nobody can argue with 'the word of God'. But I also know that the majority of religious people do not use their religion as a negative force, but as a highly positive one, and indeed gain a lot from it, so, I don't feel fiercely anti-religious. I am just personally not swayed to believe in God as a supernatural entity, and find it puzzling that so many people do.

Arguing about the existence of God is something that will run and run and run...

Diane

Arguing about the existence of God is something that will run and run and run...

Diane- God is good Lift your spirit up to the everlasting stream of God, the stream of energy, place yourself there! You will see, everything will happen, just as you dreamed it would! God is good, no argument there, God is awesome!

Wow, some of you Yanks are rigid in your faith! C'mon, open up. G-d is not only 'good' or 'awesome'; G-d is Love. He/She is that something that tells you to look that little bit deeper, to see into someone's eyes, to dance. I agree bee, we have free choice. No coincidence about the Eden affair in Genesis. We know good from evil. But do we know our parents? How they manipulated? How they cheated us? Is this possibly why so many are so angry today? Religion searches for the transcendent, not so much parenting. How many reading this were hit and belittled as kids? The Love kicked out of them. How many learnt the Lord's Prayer or the Shema - not even knowing what they meant? We blindly address some dictator in the Heavens and miss completely what's going on in the 'Now'. There is something mystical bee. We don't know all its secrets. We may never know its truth. But it exists. It is there for you; for all of us. It is gentle as a raindrop, as powerful as an earthquake. Yes, it is definitely nature and yes it is spirit. The two working in divine cohesion. How else? As Fljots and Tchoc often allude to, we're tearing nature down. Consequently the spirit drowns too. Ah, but we haven't seen its demise just yet!

All is G-d. We are in it. That is the point. We are a part of it. Inside. Inside of you. Take a second to feel...Take another moment. There. Each of us with our unique journey, and our common trail.

Take care bee,

Boss

We know good from evil. But do we know our parents? How they manipulated? How they cheated us? Is this possibly why so many are so angry today?

Boss- are you angry? At your parents? For giving you a gift of life?
God is good

Come on Bee. It wasn't their gift to give. They made love in June of '67 and I was born in March of '68. I was as much a gift to them as they to me. Ultimately, the 'gift of Life' is a mystery. It was their duty to nurture me. And yes, I am angry with my father for abandoning ship when I was 11. Bloody angry and he is now 6 years dead. Don't you see; you must, that parents are the world to a child? They are gods! My father once wrote a poem titled Once Father and God in 1992.

Once
father and god
were almost the same.

Father stood
on god's shoulders
and directed things.

My father the director
could make the rain fall
on Wednesdays

the sun come out
for long weekends

and bears sleep
during winter.

Now only father remains

grey and lined
the way god always was.

I murdered god
one night when I was high

higher than father

my head out of the sky.

As I stabbed and bludgeoned
it was I who bled

and ached in freedom

It is clear he had abandoned the stereotypical, traditional god many people believe in. He was free of it but remained a deeply spiritual person. He wrote this poem at age 57 - 20 years older than me now. I don't agree with all of it.

Bee, if you wonder of the 10 Commandments it says 'Honor thy Parents', not 'Honor thy Children'. Why? Because these are old systems we follow. A Common Belief System encompassing the broad mass of human experience, wisdom and potential is where we're headed. It is our only hope. I know you are 'chomping at the bit' to tear apart this post so now you have your chance.

Shalom bee

Boss