leonardcohenforum.com

Agreed, Paul. This is overall a very good place as far as forums go. But this latest one has me thinking of quitting this place except for getting ticket information. Someone gets angry at you and starts going through all what you've said in order to form a personal attack... Unsettling.

scocoh wrote:.
You have no idea what I've done and didn't do to be able to go to a bunch of shows. You have no idea how much money I make or how little. You only want to use my going to shows to promote your rich vs poor fantasy. I've explained my personal situation before and though I am certain I am in the bottom 10% of income around here, I have no need to somehow "prove" my poorness to anyone. I've made a decision to really go for something because I am worried that this will be the last chance. If my family and friends knew exactly what I was doing to be able to go on this trip they would be appalled and think I've finally gone over the edge. But I really don't care what you or anyone else thinks of my decisions or financial commitments.

Hang on, I never wanted to know your earnings, or what you have under the bed, or in the bank. All I was saying was that with all the shows you are going to and your mention of you being poor, I wondered what some people saw as poor, or scraping by? Why so defensive Scott? It was a reasonable question to ask, it might help to know what others think actually being poor is. No you don't have to prove anything to anyone if you don't want to, as I said, you stating you were poor wasn't in line with how I (and surely others) look at someone being poor but there you go. some can't afford one, some can go to several, that's fine, it's only when you get "but I am not well off (poor even)" and then see the long list of shows they have attended and indeed will attend on this new tour. It doesn't add up.

As for me being angry, nope, not even in the slightest, I am putting my thoughts on the thread and it seems that people don't like what I am saying. I have spoken about this a few times off Forum, not one actualy likes the prices, it seems that if one dares say it is wrong to charge such ticket prices, too many take it personally and jump in to defend LC or indeed themselves by paying the ticket prices. I would rather someone say, I can afford to buy a ticket, or tickets even and I will pay the going rate, rather than come out with "Well it's a struggle, something will have to be left out this year but I am going to 10 gigs" OK that's an exaggeration but it is just to point out that for many, that choice is an impossibility.

I'm not sure what it is you want, Vi. I do agree the tickets are (what I think as) too expensive, but what exactly do you expect here? You are playing this up as if it's some sort of cosmic injustice and some battle between rich and poor. Are you mad at Leonard for not controlling the prices more effectively? Are you envious of other's ability to go to shows? Is there a bigger cause in your mind that this is a part of? Why so so so darn angry about this?

Am I envious of others, no, not all, I wish them all well. Most people I meet at Cohen Gigs are not rich, well not that they have ever said so, they are just folks who want to see LC. I am not on some big mission to separate the wealthy from the not so well off but for whatever reason, it does seem that some are taking it as an affront to their situation. You want the truth, I wont be going to see more than a few shows because that will satisfy my want but I know some will want to see just one, or twenty one, or more, it is the choice of the individual and a choice I would like the less well off be given to see just the one show. Sorry if that sounds offensive to some, although why that should be, I have no idea.

scocoh wrote:Agreed, Paul. This is overall a very good place as far as forums go. But this latest one has me thinking of quitting this place except for getting ticket information. Someone gets angry at you and starts going through all what you've said in order to form a personal attack... Unsettling.

That is so totally wrong. It was not in anyway an attack on you, read it again. You said you were poor and it had me thinking about how some would see someone with the ability to go to several gigs all requiring flights and hotels to boot and who said they were poor. It was you who mentioned being poor, not me and no, as I have just said, no anger whatsoever on my point, there honestly isn't.

All interested parties have said, I think, all that can be said on this topic, so let's end this thread, unless someone out there insists on having the final word.

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Too much for me guys-- I'm pau. Going ticket and info only mode. See you at some meetups and shows.

I do not have any intention of entering into a slagging match about tickets prices and the last thing on my mind is to insult anyone. It is not a nice situation if someone would like to go to a gig and cannot afford to go. Most of us would like to do some things that we cannot afford. Ticket prices are like everything else in life, they vary. We are all adults and if we feel that it is worth the price then we will make a concious decision to go or we have the option to stay away. I do not remember ever getting 'cheap' tickets to see L.C. or indeed Tina Turner, U2, Eagles, Bruce Sprinsteen etc. I saw Paul Simon last week in Dublin - tix - 116 euro. Really enjoyed the show so it was worth it to me. I just work for a living but this is how I choose to spend my spare cash, others will differ and that is fine. To each their own.

Time to create a "nothing personal" subforum. You guys know of cyber-bullying laws, right?

da2008 wrote:Time to create a "nothing personal" subforum. You guys know of cyber-bullying laws, right?

"Cyberbullying is the willful and repeated use of cell phones, computers, and other electronic communication devices to harass and threaten others"

That's a rather selective quote from Wikipedia.

The pricing of tickets for LC concerts has made me very very cynical about LC and his management to a point where I have decided not to go to any of the concerts, albeit that I could do so and also that I think the music, performance and musicians are fantastic. 'Capitalism' and making money unfortunately appears to me to be the main driver and makes me uneasy being part of this as it detracts from the altruism of the art and the outlook on life that LC portrays. I have also started to question 'Old Ideas' as I have an impression that it is a collective gathered together to exploit / capitalise on the LC name and not quite the individual LC I personally admire / crave.

As for the costs of putting a tour together and paying for venues, flights, staff etc., the recent LC tours must have been very lucrative and will have netted LC and the promoters tens if not hundreds of millions US dollars 'profit' each (after all expenses etc.,) and in the perspective of world economics this in my eyes is gross and could be seen as highway robbery / theft (but those being robbed are participants and feel they have no choice!!!). For one 3 hour concert LC personally will receive significantly more than most people in developed economies will earn in a lifetime and those in poorer countries could not even dream about. It does not seem right.

The following might be of interest in terms of ticket prices and whether they are justified by costs of touring etc., and the obscene amounts of money being made by musical acts with many earning sums of 10, 20, 30 40 and even 100+ million dollars per tour (U2)

LC has been one of the top earning acts in recent years. According to Billboard magazine:

Leonard Cohen played his first U.S. concert in 15 years in February 2009. The show kicked off a successful year on the road that earned him $9.2 million in box-office share, dwarfing his $236,200 in CD royalties and $34,748 in digital album royalties. —EN
Read more at http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_ ... E3FTOoL.99

Many LC concerts have several thousand attendees with average tickets of 90 Euros (and above). Vast sums of money are receipted but the costs of the tour (flights, hotels, venue costs etc.,) although high would appear to be a small portion of such a high ticket price leaving a big profit margin. This can be either regarded as just rewards, taking full opportunity of a situation or daylight robbery.

da2008 wrote:That's a rather selective quote from Wikipedia.

actually, it isn't... it's from the US National Conference of State Legislatures....

.. but still, give us your definition, and tell us where you've seen it on this thread....

real-Alan, I'm not going to indulge you with a discussion. I don't appreciate the tone of this thread, the behaviors of certain members consistently implying financial prowess of other members and making consequent demeaning remarks. This is not a single incident on this board either- the same has happened in various other threads and was perpetrated by the same members. The definition of cyber bullying goes beyond one paragraph and could include cases of harassment in this thread. The language used is aggressive in nature and personal.

Nevertheless, it is none of my business. I am sure the moderators are having a blast.

And please, could we stop using the winking emoticon? I'm not ready for this much flirting.

da2008 wrote:real-Alan, I'm not going to indulge you with a discussion.

Some more definitions :
Forum = a place of open DISCUSSION

Discussion = two and fro of DIFFERING opinions

Obviously anyone who doesn't enjoy DISCUSSION of DIFFERING opinions should steer well clear of a Forum!
(FB is an alternative - there you can surround yourself with people who will never disagree with you! )

The only offensive language I found on this thread was from the person who opened it.

da2008 wrote:real-Alan, I'm not going to indulge you with a discussion. I don't appreciate the tone of this thread, the behaviors of certain members consistently implying financial prowess of other members and making consequent demeaning remarks. This is not a single incident on this board either- the same has happened in various other threads and was perpetrated by the same members. The definition of cyber bullying goes beyond one paragraph and could include cases of harassment in this thread. The language used is aggressive in nature and personal.

Nevertheless, it is none of my business. I am sure the moderators are having a blast.

And please, could we stop using the winking emoticon? I'm not ready for this much flirting.

I'm not wild about the tone either, but responded to the fact that YOU raised the issue of cyberbullying (even referring to the laws against it....) by inferring that I hadn't seen anything like cyberbullying on here.... if you don't want to discuss it, fair enough, but (a) why raise it in the first place; and (b) why bother to tell me you're not going to discuss it?

funny isn't it how the people who don't want to engage in discussion still want to have the last word....?