leonardcohenforum.com

Hi Ep and Zab [couldn't resist] ~

Remember to first block out what you want to appear in the quote box, prior to clicking on the "Quote" button [at least that's the way I do it]. Is that the process you're describing, Zabka, or can it be done another way, too?

~ Lizzy

Oh, sorry ~ Good Morning ........

The development of this thread is becoming a bit too far off the track as various people introduce red herrings to confuse the issue further from attempts at clarification. Once more for
The idea that occured to me as I was writing is that Perceptions of the poem or any work for that matter may change with time after the initial reaction has passed; maybe they don't. I know for myself that sometimes my perceptions do change as I have more time to digest the information or expression that has been brought before me.

As for the source of some of my writing. I certainly did not mean to imply that some outside entity was using me in the way that some responses alleged. I am talking about the Unconscious communicating in a way that may bypass the conscious selection process. Communicating from some other part of myself where thoughts or ideas flow of their own volition rather than being assembled or constructed logically. Jung talked about the "collective unconscious" whatever that may be- in a way that suggests that we are all linked in some way that defies categorical definition. I can see that this is a possibility without being deluded that one may be "possessed" or "channelled" by some outside entity. I do not subscribe to that kind of notion. I can accept the idea that the content of my unconscious is not entirely separate from the unconscious of my fellow humans. I trust that this can make my thoughts clearer without being quoted out of context and going down some "deluded" or "scary" path.

BTW, suggesting possibilities does not necessarily mean that I am convinced of that which I may suggest. I am offering options for discussion or consideration. That is- just because I may suggest something that does not mean I believe it or I hold that viewpoint as set in concrete.

Sincere regards, W.O.

Ciao Ves....Blood Simple that's it. I didnt know who or what it referred to. Grazie!
I think they call themselves Coen Brothers.

WO - you wrote somewhere words to the effect that the best songwriters write about pain, anguish, suffering etc etc. and that it is a sign of our times.
But it may also be possible that atleast to some extent art thrives on misery. It may be easier to write a deep meaningful song about pain, anguish and suffering than a deep meaningful happy song.

Two songwriters that I respect and who don't much deal with pain and suffering atleast directly but only sometimes tangentially are Butch Hancock and Johnny Clegg (you are familiar with the latter). Not to suggest that I don't respect others that do write of pain and suffering. But it is instructive that both were primarily not artists at the start of their careers - Hancock is a qualified architect and Clegg used to be an anthropology lecturer at a university.

Kush, I am not sure what you mean by instructive re your last post? Yes we have discussed Clegg in the past but I am not familiar with Butch Hancock. Where does he originate from? You also referred to Jerry Jeff Walker. He has written some good songs on unexpected topics. For example "Charlie Dunn"- a tale about a boot maker. Come to think of it Mark Knopfler wrote a song titled "Quality Shoe" which appeared on his last CD. Not exactly D&M but good songs all the same.

Pink Floyd members Wright, Waters and Mason all started out together at architect school. Waters turned out to be one of the most prolific lyricists on the topic of the human condition. Dan Fogelberg started out as an art student though much of his songs are about the more anguish filled aspect of love relationships. Some of his unexpected compositions are classics in my view- "Leader of the Band" and "Run for the Roses".

And though I do not classify myself amongst the best songwriters, I have been practising the art consistently for over 25 years now producing one or two songs that I can continue to play without cringing. I started out as a qualified primary school teacher (and I still do that too). As yet I am not a good enough musician to give up my day job.

Regards, Owl devoted to art.

That the artist's perception of the world may not necessarily be the only valid perception of the world. Indeed LC said somewhere that "it is not the artist's job to be a social commentator" or something to that effect. Artists can undoubtedly make great art but not necessarily accurate social or political commentary. An architect or an anthropologist will have a different upbringing and hangout with a different group of people and his worldview will be different.

Butch Hancock is from Lubbock, TX - his lyrics tend to me more whimsical and comically surreal but there is a certain depth.

Talking about shoes there's a Clegg line that goes "He makes dancing shoes from old car tires" that makes a nice picture for me.

Hi Wi (sorry couldn't resist)

No.... I don't block out anything, just press quote and move my cursor in the box - delete at your will.

You can always do a preview if you are unsure about posting cold.


ANyway, as you say....back to the subject

For sure Kush, that an artist may not necessarily be the best social/political commentator. Some artists though are in a position to be excellent commentators. This depends more on their life experience than on their artistic skill.
What is the role of an artist? As one whose life is steeped in these actions and interests I expect of myself to be honest and truthful re expression. To produce something from the deeper part of myself that requires some soul searching and trial & error. I expect my standards and skills to be consistently improving and I try to produce work that is not only true to my own nature but will have some meaning for others. An artist must also be engaged with the real world outside of art so that works produced are not insular, works that reflect something of life removed from art. Art can be its own purpose and satisfaction but I think it needs to connect to life if it is to make sense to those who do not make art. Though I have focused much on writing and sound (music) in recent years I do try to balance activities with visual art, painting, photography; and domestic art, gardening and cooking.

What you get from me here is mostly thinking and writing and that may not be the best of me that I could be offering. Still, that is the nature of a discussion forum and it is great that there are many more things happening here than the single purpose of discussing LC's works.

Regards, Witty Owl.

"...try to produce work that is not only true to my own nature but will have some meaning for others. An artist must also be engaged with the real world outside of art so that works produced are not insular, works that reflect something of life removed from art. Art can be its own purpose and satisfaction but I think it needs to connect to life if it is to make sense to those who do not make art..."

I fully agree with this statement, W.O.
Same statement in a nutshell- If you don't live and feel rather than invent, nobody will know how to relate.



Had to edit my foul, early morning, wrong side of the floor, talk. Sorry all