BOB DYLAN IS A GREATER SONGSTER THAN LEONARD COHEN
Bob Dylan vs Leonard Cohen Wars...
Sticks to stones, lemons to oranges- why compare one thing as if to another. Everything that is not the same is different. Dylan and Cohen are not the same. They have some things' in common, but these are idiomatic. They have some uniquenesses, but these are idiomatic. Is the sun better than the moon? I think we should sponsor a video-taped discussion in somebody's living room, where Leonard and Bob duke it out, or laugh it up. I love both these guys. They are human beings with the peculiar inclination to make sounds and words that move other people. My life was indelibly affected by Mr. Dylan because he inadvertantly, or otherwise, 'painted' scenarios of probably what humanity looks like as seen from the after-life: partly terrible, partly hilarious. Unlike with Leonard, I was never scared by any of the intimations that Bob's lyrics might have carried. Leonard, another and different human being, touched an extemely more personal and isolationist part of my character, and sustained some of my more hopeless observations of myself and life in general. But, unmistakably, Leonard was so PRESENT in his delivery that a real human being was right there as I heard his music. They are different men, with different themes, that may inevitably overlap. I acknowledge that both of these people are poets-as-musicians but inspite of their contributions, no need exists to deify them, and certainly not to 'compare' them as if some contest were happening. My left foot is different from my right. I'm glad to have them both!
Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.
"A Course in Miracles"
http://members.shaw.ca/clatwood/
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.
"A Course in Miracles"
http://members.shaw.ca/clatwood/
So now you should go back to your biology basics class.rocksoff wrote:On whether they are human or animal, ranging from 0 (completely animal) to 50 (half animal/half human) to 100 (completely like me). Those who earn a 100 rating are few, in fact really it's one one person, namely me. Most others I rate below me, especially Smile, who receives a minus 100. On a good day.
Now, for a homework: open your book and read the definition of human and animal. Then write 100 times - "Human is an animal". Show up with your sheet next week.
Mirek, the Science teacher
PS. You may listen to Dylan while writing. Don't thank me - you may consider yourself being lucky today - usually I order to write such a sentence 250 times.
dylan-cohen...
It's safe to say that some of them already have received 'medals'. There is Substance to many of these men's works, unlike nearly 100 % of what
"popular" music stays with: pablum, bubble gum, c-rap...
"popular" music stays with: pablum, bubble gum, c-rap...
Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.
"A Course in Miracles"
http://members.shaw.ca/clatwood/
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.
"A Course in Miracles"
http://members.shaw.ca/clatwood/
Such an excellent answer to that question posed here long ago, Davideo. It was worth the resurrection just to read your insightful, in-depth, spot-on response. Both humourous and serious, and absolutely accurate. I would like to have accomplished such a reply myself; however, I wouldn't have even come close.
Mirek ~ You'll be soooo pleased to know that 'Rocksoff' is long gone
. His homework assignment will be turned in veeeeeeeerrrrrrrrry late 
!
Mirek ~ You'll be soooo pleased to know that 'Rocksoff' is long gone
. His homework assignment will be turned in veeeeeeeerrrrrrrrry late !-
Jim Williams
- Posts: 198
- Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:17 am
- Location: Stone, Staffordshire, England, U.K.
lizzy, some of Dylan's streams of consciousness can be found in the liner notes of his early albums, but Another Side of Bob Dylan in particular features quite a number of (titleless) poems that are explicitly presented as poems.lizzytysh wrote:As I read about Dylan's 600 songs, compared to Leonard's lesser number, it occurred to me that I don't recall hearing anything about Bob Dylan poetry.
They're reproduced here:
http://bobdylan.com/linernotes/another.html
The lion and the calf shall lie down together, but the calf won't get much sleep.
Rockstoff wrote:
"Still Bob has created relatively many more of the greatest songs the worls has heard, than LC. It takes LC so long to produce songs to his lyrics...like some of them have taken years...but Bob has for much of the four decades rattled them off. And LC has of course called Dylan the Picasso of song, and has bowed down to his genius, creativity, and versatility. Even Lc recognises that he can't compare to Bob. Nobody can or has. It will be an impossible act to follow".
What a bore that kind of fundamentalists, those people who think you're better if you produce more; trying to discuss such narrow-minded arguments is absurd. Let's say once for all: Dylan is great in his own business, but Cohen has achieved a greater position, he plays in another league... and the songs for Dylan are good in his style, but there other styles -and yes, sir, other languagues- in wich there have been people arguably comparable with Dylan and even Cohen; so please don't think the great Dylan is the centre of the world; it is the center of your world, that's all.
"Still Bob has created relatively many more of the greatest songs the worls has heard, than LC. It takes LC so long to produce songs to his lyrics...like some of them have taken years...but Bob has for much of the four decades rattled them off. And LC has of course called Dylan the Picasso of song, and has bowed down to his genius, creativity, and versatility. Even Lc recognises that he can't compare to Bob. Nobody can or has. It will be an impossible act to follow".
What a bore that kind of fundamentalists, those people who think you're better if you produce more; trying to discuss such narrow-minded arguments is absurd. Let's say once for all: Dylan is great in his own business, but Cohen has achieved a greater position, he plays in another league... and the songs for Dylan are good in his style, but there other styles -and yes, sir, other languagues- in wich there have been people arguably comparable with Dylan and even Cohen; so please don't think the great Dylan is the centre of the world; it is the center of your world, that's all.
Bob Dylan's poetry? What Bob Dylan's poetry? He wrote only two books - typical try in beat style, not quite succesfull (Tarantula) and recent Chronicles, which are quite OK although egocentric, as all Dylan did in making his own public persona. But there's no any published poetry.
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
On Friday night Croatian TV broadcasted No Direction Home. I watched first hour or so, it was too long, and as the film as art is in question, was quite uninteresting. You can't see it was done by Scorsese - it's a boring flow of archival footage, with today's statements by then-friends and relatives ("Yes, Bobby then was..", "Bobby was..." etc.) plus Dylan's own contemporary commentaries. As film - predictable and quite boring. As the document about Dylan - quite insightfull. First I was, again, amazed how that repulsive young teenager full of ego and wish to make the myth of himself is different than late Dylan, author of such great songs on Time Out of Mind and Modern Times. Also, how his early songs were due to his time and are more or less stucked in it, keeping only their historical importance, while Dylan himself made more important songs, even real art, from late 60s and on.
First, Dylan *is* important and great, but this constant nonsense talk about Dylan/Cohen is quite boring - it's two worlds. Dylan is important for changing it all for the moment in 60s and 70s (what he changed died long ago, with merging of companies, MTVs and shit which is regarded as popular music today). But everything around him is self-indulgement mythology, supported by journalists and people who can see that he's better than most of previous popular music, but cannot perceive Tom Waits of Leonard Cohen as being simply the better.
Love, love me do
You know I love you
I'll always be true
so please, love me do
oh, love me do
Love, love me do
You know I love you
I'll always be true
so please, love me do
oh, love me do
(...)
Love, love me do
You know I love you
I'll always be true
so please, love me do
oh, love me do
Yeah, love me do
Oh, love me do
In shit like that, of course that Dylan is great and changed everything:
Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.
This is unequaled by most of popular music. Unfortunately, it's also depending on its political context and that's the main problem of early Dylan (and the ballast of later).
So I watched No Direction Home and wondered, Jesus, *this* is called poetry? Compared to Leonard Cohen who was there in the same time:
Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks
(...)
And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead
Compare that (incl. awfull line "I hope that you die") with Cohen's:
Suzanne takes you down to her place near the river
You can hear the boats go by
You can spend the night beside her
And you know that she's half crazy
But that's why you want to be there
And she feeds you tea and oranges
That come all the way from China
And just when you mean to tell her
That you have no love to give her
Then she gets you on her wavelength
And she lets the river answer
That you've always been her lover
Then, Dylan's:
You've gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it
You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?
It's good, particularly in the context. But compare with Cohen's:
The stories of the street are mine, the Spanish voices laugh.
The Cadillacs go creeping now through the night and the poison gas,
and I lean from my window sill in this old hotel I chose,
yes one hand on my suicide, one hand on the rose.
I know you've heard it's over now and war must surely come,
the cities they are broke in half and the middle men are gone.
But let me ask you one more time, O children of the dusk,
All these hunters who are shrieking now oh do they speak for us?
Or - to be honest, compare Dylan's:
How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
which is OK but simple in its metaphors and politics, while Cohen's:
I lit a thin green candle, to make you jealous of me.
But the room just filled up with mosquitos,
they heard that my body was free.
Then I took the dust of a long sleepless night
and I put it in your little shoe.
And then I confess that I tortured the dress
that you wore for the world to look through
is f***ing masterpiece, and shows where the problem is - while Dylan was obliged tgo the context and politics, Cohen was keeping the self-awareness and independence of art itself from the very beginning. L'art pour l'art.
Let's be true to Dylan and his great development, and compare the previous lines to his own 1997 song:
I'm walking through streets that are dead
Walking, walking with you in my head
My feet are so tired, my brain is so wired
And the clouds are weeping
Did I hear someone tell a lie?
Did I hear someone's distant cry?
I spoke like a child; you destroyed me with a smile
While I was sleeping
That is great, as is his 2006 song:
As I walked out tonight in the mystic garden
The wounded flowers were dangling from the vines
I was passing by yon cool and crystal fountain
Someone hit me from behind
Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Through this weary world of woe
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
No one on earth would ever know
They say prayer has the power to help
So pray from the mother
In the human heart an evil spirit can dwell
I'm trying to love my neighbor and do good unto others
But oh, mother, things ain't going well
Ain't talkin', just walkin'
I'll burn that bridge before you can cross
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
They'll be no mercy for you once you've lost
And supported by great music.
But as great is this one, but - my small impression - on quite *different* level (another world, I say):
The ponies run, the girls are young,
The odds are there to beat.
You win a while, and then it’s done –
Your little winning streak.
And summoned now to deal
With your invincible defeat,
You live your life as if it’s real,
A Thousand Kisses Deep
or
Suddenly the night has grown colder.
The god of love preparing to depart.
Alexandra hoisted on his shoulder,
They slip between the sentries of the heart.
Upheld by the simplicities of pleasure,
They gain the light, they formlessly entwine;
And radiant beyond your widest measure
They fall among the voices and the wine
or
The light came through the window,
Straight from the sun above,
And so inside my little room
There plunged the rays of Love.
In streams of light I clearly saw
The dust you seldom see,
Out of which the Nameless makes
A Name for one like me.
I’ll try to say a little more:
Love went on and on
Until it reached an open door –
Then Love Itself
Love Itself was gone.
Cohen's words come from totally different realm than Dylan's. His are emerged in US musical tradition, American milieu, beat heritage (with Rimbaud injection) etc. The same tradition of American popular art where Sam Shepard or Patti Smith are standing. While Cohen's is quite European, East-European (with heavy Jewish heritage - compare Various Positions to any Dylan's album to see that), immersed in spiritual goals and correspondence of both literary and spiritual achievements, totaly immersed in literature (his Recent Songs or Ten New Songs are heavily *literary* albums, while Dylan's own achievements, like Modern Times or Time Out of Mind, as much they're greatly written, are more immersed in folk tradition traced via Woody Guthrie and all that context depicted by him in his Chronicles. Also, compare the melodies of TNS to Dylan's latest - it's two unconnected worlds).
I do not say Dylan isn't doing so; quite contrary, with Time Out Of Mind and many later songs he's keeping up with Cohen, but again, it's another world. Dylan is in Bible as inherited by American popular culture (just imagine preachers on US south from Flannery O'Connor's writings):
As I walked out in the mystic garden
On a hot summer day, hot summer lawn
Excuse me, ma'am I beg your pardon
There's no one here, the gardener is gone
Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Up the road around the bend
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
In the last outback, at the world's end
while Cohen is, on one side, more in Jewish tradition under European (not American/US) impression, plus his own Zen-Buddhist yearnings (what, strangely, makes him closer to beatniks than Dylan):
The ponies run, the girls are young,
The odds are there to beat.
You win a while, and then it’s done –
Your little winning streak.
And summoned now to deal
With your invincible defeat,
You live your life as if it’s real,
A Thousand Kisses Deep
which is particularly seeen when he deals with Biblical themes and metaphores:
By the rivers dark
I wandered on.
I lived my life
in Babylon.
And I did forget
My holy song:
And I had no strength
In Babylon.
By the rivers dark
Where I could not see
Who was waiting there
Who was hunting me.
And he cut my lip
And he cut my heart.
So I could not drink
From the river dark.
or in - for Cohen - open political song, which deals with Biblical metaphor:
I don’t know why I come here,
Knowing as I do,
What you really think of me,
What I really think of you.
For the millions in a prison,
That wealth has set apart –
For the Christ who has not risen,
From the caverns of the heart –
For the innermost decision,
That we cannot but obey -
For what’s left of our religion,
I lift my voice and pray:
May the lights in The Land of Plenty
Shine on the truth some day.
We can also compare all mentioned to two guys, with lines better than most of Dylan's early songs:
Nick Cave:
The boatman calls from the lake
A lone loon dives upon the water
I put my hand over her
Down in the lime tree arbour
The wind in the trees is whispering
Whispering low that I love her
She puts her hand over mine
Down in the lime tree arbour
Tom Waits:
I fell into the ocean
When you became my wife
I risked it all against the sea
To have a better life
Marie you are the wild blue sky
And men do foolish things
You turn kings into beggars
And beggars into kings
Pretend that you owe me nothing
And all the world is green
We can bring back the old days again
But all the world is green
First, Dylan *is* important and great, but this constant nonsense talk about Dylan/Cohen is quite boring - it's two worlds. Dylan is important for changing it all for the moment in 60s and 70s (what he changed died long ago, with merging of companies, MTVs and shit which is regarded as popular music today). But everything around him is self-indulgement mythology, supported by journalists and people who can see that he's better than most of previous popular music, but cannot perceive Tom Waits of Leonard Cohen as being simply the better.
Love, love me do
You know I love you
I'll always be true
so please, love me do
oh, love me do
Love, love me do
You know I love you
I'll always be true
so please, love me do
oh, love me do
(...)
Love, love me do
You know I love you
I'll always be true
so please, love me do
oh, love me do
Yeah, love me do
Oh, love me do
In shit like that, of course that Dylan is great and changed everything:
Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.
This is unequaled by most of popular music. Unfortunately, it's also depending on its political context and that's the main problem of early Dylan (and the ballast of later).
So I watched No Direction Home and wondered, Jesus, *this* is called poetry? Compared to Leonard Cohen who was there in the same time:
Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks
(...)
And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead
Compare that (incl. awfull line "I hope that you die") with Cohen's:
Suzanne takes you down to her place near the river
You can hear the boats go by
You can spend the night beside her
And you know that she's half crazy
But that's why you want to be there
And she feeds you tea and oranges
That come all the way from China
And just when you mean to tell her
That you have no love to give her
Then she gets you on her wavelength
And she lets the river answer
That you've always been her lover
Then, Dylan's:
You've gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it
You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?
It's good, particularly in the context. But compare with Cohen's:
The stories of the street are mine, the Spanish voices laugh.
The Cadillacs go creeping now through the night and the poison gas,
and I lean from my window sill in this old hotel I chose,
yes one hand on my suicide, one hand on the rose.
I know you've heard it's over now and war must surely come,
the cities they are broke in half and the middle men are gone.
But let me ask you one more time, O children of the dusk,
All these hunters who are shrieking now oh do they speak for us?
Or - to be honest, compare Dylan's:
How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
which is OK but simple in its metaphors and politics, while Cohen's:
I lit a thin green candle, to make you jealous of me.
But the room just filled up with mosquitos,
they heard that my body was free.
Then I took the dust of a long sleepless night
and I put it in your little shoe.
And then I confess that I tortured the dress
that you wore for the world to look through
is f***ing masterpiece, and shows where the problem is - while Dylan was obliged tgo the context and politics, Cohen was keeping the self-awareness and independence of art itself from the very beginning. L'art pour l'art.
Let's be true to Dylan and his great development, and compare the previous lines to his own 1997 song:
I'm walking through streets that are dead
Walking, walking with you in my head
My feet are so tired, my brain is so wired
And the clouds are weeping
Did I hear someone tell a lie?
Did I hear someone's distant cry?
I spoke like a child; you destroyed me with a smile
While I was sleeping
That is great, as is his 2006 song:
As I walked out tonight in the mystic garden
The wounded flowers were dangling from the vines
I was passing by yon cool and crystal fountain
Someone hit me from behind
Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Through this weary world of woe
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
No one on earth would ever know
They say prayer has the power to help
So pray from the mother
In the human heart an evil spirit can dwell
I'm trying to love my neighbor and do good unto others
But oh, mother, things ain't going well
Ain't talkin', just walkin'
I'll burn that bridge before you can cross
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
They'll be no mercy for you once you've lost
And supported by great music.
But as great is this one, but - my small impression - on quite *different* level (another world, I say):
The ponies run, the girls are young,
The odds are there to beat.
You win a while, and then it’s done –
Your little winning streak.
And summoned now to deal
With your invincible defeat,
You live your life as if it’s real,
A Thousand Kisses Deep
or
Suddenly the night has grown colder.
The god of love preparing to depart.
Alexandra hoisted on his shoulder,
They slip between the sentries of the heart.
Upheld by the simplicities of pleasure,
They gain the light, they formlessly entwine;
And radiant beyond your widest measure
They fall among the voices and the wine
or
The light came through the window,
Straight from the sun above,
And so inside my little room
There plunged the rays of Love.
In streams of light I clearly saw
The dust you seldom see,
Out of which the Nameless makes
A Name for one like me.
I’ll try to say a little more:
Love went on and on
Until it reached an open door –
Then Love Itself
Love Itself was gone.
Cohen's words come from totally different realm than Dylan's. His are emerged in US musical tradition, American milieu, beat heritage (with Rimbaud injection) etc. The same tradition of American popular art where Sam Shepard or Patti Smith are standing. While Cohen's is quite European, East-European (with heavy Jewish heritage - compare Various Positions to any Dylan's album to see that), immersed in spiritual goals and correspondence of both literary and spiritual achievements, totaly immersed in literature (his Recent Songs or Ten New Songs are heavily *literary* albums, while Dylan's own achievements, like Modern Times or Time Out of Mind, as much they're greatly written, are more immersed in folk tradition traced via Woody Guthrie and all that context depicted by him in his Chronicles. Also, compare the melodies of TNS to Dylan's latest - it's two unconnected worlds).
I do not say Dylan isn't doing so; quite contrary, with Time Out Of Mind and many later songs he's keeping up with Cohen, but again, it's another world. Dylan is in Bible as inherited by American popular culture (just imagine preachers on US south from Flannery O'Connor's writings):
As I walked out in the mystic garden
On a hot summer day, hot summer lawn
Excuse me, ma'am I beg your pardon
There's no one here, the gardener is gone
Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Up the road around the bend
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
In the last outback, at the world's end
while Cohen is, on one side, more in Jewish tradition under European (not American/US) impression, plus his own Zen-Buddhist yearnings (what, strangely, makes him closer to beatniks than Dylan):
The ponies run, the girls are young,
The odds are there to beat.
You win a while, and then it’s done –
Your little winning streak.
And summoned now to deal
With your invincible defeat,
You live your life as if it’s real,
A Thousand Kisses Deep
which is particularly seeen when he deals with Biblical themes and metaphores:
By the rivers dark
I wandered on.
I lived my life
in Babylon.
And I did forget
My holy song:
And I had no strength
In Babylon.
By the rivers dark
Where I could not see
Who was waiting there
Who was hunting me.
And he cut my lip
And he cut my heart.
So I could not drink
From the river dark.
or in - for Cohen - open political song, which deals with Biblical metaphor:
I don’t know why I come here,
Knowing as I do,
What you really think of me,
What I really think of you.
For the millions in a prison,
That wealth has set apart –
For the Christ who has not risen,
From the caverns of the heart –
For the innermost decision,
That we cannot but obey -
For what’s left of our religion,
I lift my voice and pray:
May the lights in The Land of Plenty
Shine on the truth some day.
We can also compare all mentioned to two guys, with lines better than most of Dylan's early songs:
Nick Cave:
The boatman calls from the lake
A lone loon dives upon the water
I put my hand over her
Down in the lime tree arbour
The wind in the trees is whispering
Whispering low that I love her
She puts her hand over mine
Down in the lime tree arbour
Tom Waits:
I fell into the ocean
When you became my wife
I risked it all against the sea
To have a better life
Marie you are the wild blue sky
And men do foolish things
You turn kings into beggars
And beggars into kings
Pretend that you owe me nothing
And all the world is green
We can bring back the old days again
But all the world is green
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
I sure did enjoy reading your exposition, Tom .
There are only a couple things with which I feel disagreement. The first is regarding this:
The times will always be a-changin' ~ regardless of where, regardless of realm... and the principle that you'd better start swimmin' [metaphor for adjusting, but adjustments come in many forms, even in swimming... different types of strokes, including treading water to stay afloat], you likely will sink like a stone.
This is a wonderful song that has resonated through the years. Whether it's war... or moving from one state or country to another... or literal death of a loved one... it's one that can be 'personalized' for each listener and singer. It's a song that I've heard people sing along to with all the gusto of when it was sung so many years ago... and the people weren't lost in reverie as they were singing it. They meant it for the day it was being sung.
I'll check back in later on the other side of Bob. The first one there appeared to be a rap song and wasn't to me what I consider poetry... unless "beat" poetry spoken in a 60s, smokey, black-walled, coffee shop. The jury's still out on the others there as to their "poetry," as I haven't read the rest, yet. However, at least is a departure from what I've seen/heard of Dylan, though it's not poetry in the sense that Leonard's poetry is such.
I enjoyed Scorcese's film on Dylan immensely. Not the least bit bored. If I were more film-merit savvy, I might assess it differently, i.e. too much emphasis on the past or whatever [aren't you majoring in film studies?]; however, since this was intended to be an overall look at Dylan, it would seem to make sense to me that there was so much related to his earlier years, with so many details that I was unaware of about him during those times and how he came to his position in music... as it was those times that he came into his own. So, the historical perspective, for me, makes total sense.
In so far as Leonard compared to Dylan and vice-versa, Leonard's lyrics do come from a wholly/holy different place, and always have, always will. It happens to be a place I'd rather be.
~ Lizzy
.There are only a couple things with which I feel disagreement. The first is regarding this:
For me, these words are relevant for all times... not contingent for understanding or appreciation or relevance upon the VietNam War and the protests and the other things happening during that time.Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.
This is unequaled by most of popular music. Unfortunately, it's also depending on its political context and that's the main problem of early Dylan (and the ballast of later).
The times will always be a-changin' ~ regardless of where, regardless of realm... and the principle that you'd better start swimmin' [metaphor for adjusting, but adjustments come in many forms, even in swimming... different types of strokes, including treading water to stay afloat], you likely will sink like a stone.
This is a wonderful song that has resonated through the years. Whether it's war... or moving from one state or country to another... or literal death of a loved one... it's one that can be 'personalized' for each listener and singer. It's a song that I've heard people sing along to with all the gusto of when it was sung so many years ago... and the people weren't lost in reverie as they were singing it. They meant it for the day it was being sung.
I'll check back in later on the other side of Bob. The first one there appeared to be a rap song and wasn't to me what I consider poetry... unless "beat" poetry spoken in a 60s, smokey, black-walled, coffee shop. The jury's still out on the others there as to their "poetry," as I haven't read the rest, yet. However, at least is a departure from what I've seen/heard of Dylan, though it's not poetry in the sense that Leonard's poetry is such.
I enjoyed Scorcese's film on Dylan immensely. Not the least bit bored. If I were more film-merit savvy, I might assess it differently, i.e. too much emphasis on the past or whatever [aren't you majoring in film studies?]; however, since this was intended to be an overall look at Dylan, it would seem to make sense to me that there was so much related to his earlier years, with so many details that I was unaware of about him during those times and how he came to his position in music... as it was those times that he came into his own. So, the historical perspective, for me, makes total sense.
In so far as Leonard compared to Dylan and vice-versa, Leonard's lyrics do come from a wholly/holy different place, and always have, always will. It happens to be a place I'd rather be.
~ Lizzy
Tom,
Great work, much appreciated. However, I (a self-acknowledged dinosaur, you’d remember), prefer the early Dylan to the late, and even his earlier staff does not mean to me as much as LC’s songs. I think it is a meaningless debate to argue who is “greater”; at the bottom line, you go with what speaks to you more personally.
And, by the way, watch your language when you mention the Beatles! This is holy stuff (even when the lyrics are nonsense; and they didn’t stay so for long).
Great work, much appreciated. However, I (a self-acknowledged dinosaur, you’d remember), prefer the early Dylan to the late, and even his earlier staff does not mean to me as much as LC’s songs. I think it is a meaningless debate to argue who is “greater”; at the bottom line, you go with what speaks to you more personally.
And, by the way, watch your language when you mention the Beatles! This is holy stuff (even when the lyrics are nonsense; and they didn’t stay so for long).
You're right on that, Doron. The selections chosen for representation must be fair ones. I thought that when I read Tom's quoting of that particular song, and thought, "Geez, Tom 
... at least choose one with more going on than that... there are certainly more than that suggests!" As I've just come from reading the thread where Dick made his Dylan songs request in the Everything Else section, I'm also reminded of some of the really great songs that Dylan has written. One after another can be read there... and it really does depend on what speaks to you. I prefer Dylan's earlier fare, as well; but, then, that's when I was Dylan oriented more than I am today. So, those songs resonate with me in a different kind of way. They are 'pure Dylanesque' for me. Still, all that said, my preference is for Leonard. For one thing, the proof is in the pudding. Leonard is where I've remained through the years, including today... for me, his songs and writing are more challenging, and the results more satisfying, in every sense.
~ Lizzy
... at least choose one with more going on than that... there are certainly more than that suggests!" As I've just come from reading the thread where Dick made his Dylan songs request in the Everything Else section, I'm also reminded of some of the really great songs that Dylan has written. One after another can be read there... and it really does depend on what speaks to you. I prefer Dylan's earlier fare, as well; but, then, that's when I was Dylan oriented more than I am today. So, those songs resonate with me in a different kind of way. They are 'pure Dylanesque' for me. Still, all that said, my preference is for Leonard. For one thing, the proof is in the pudding. Leonard is where I've remained through the years, including today... for me, his songs and writing are more challenging, and the results more satisfying, in every sense.~ Lizzy
Neither of them can dance like Johnny Clegg so this discussion (now in its fifth year) is quite pointless IMHO.
(I know I said I wouldnt post again but then I realize I am not running for President 2008 so I am allowed to flip-flop without being crucified)
p.s. Diane...I'll be back when you want to talk of Bruce Springsteen. Come to think of it Dylan or Cohen can't rock like him either....
p.p.s. Alan Alda..this one's for you..the incomparable Cheb Mami
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIXHFBX6TZw
(I know I said I wouldnt post again but then I realize I am not running for President 2008 so I am allowed to flip-flop without being crucified)
p.s. Diane...I'll be back when you want to talk of Bruce Springsteen. Come to think of it Dylan or Cohen can't rock like him either....
p.p.s. Alan Alda..this one's for you..the incomparable Cheb Mami
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIXHFBX6TZw
-
Diane
Kush! Yeeeeeeeeeees ! I am in such a good mood this week. Spring has sprung here, the sun is shining, and you Linda and Laurie have come back! Has the new Bryan Ferry Dylanesque cd been released over the pond?
Diane
ps As I was saying to Margaret, Tim and Rob the other day, this place is like the Hotel California: You can check out any time you like, but you can Never leave...
! I am in such a good mood this week. Spring has sprung here, the sun is shining, and you Linda and Laurie have come back! Has the new Bryan Ferry Dylanesque cd been released over the pond? Diane
ps As I was saying to Margaret, Tim and Rob the other day, this place is like the Hotel California: You can check out any time you like, but you can Never leave...