leonardcohenforum.com

Hi again,

here two pictures from screenshots of "Anyhow" on Live in Dublin.


My location, as I already said somewhere on this thread, is some 70 km north of Marseille, but not in a town or village. I live out in the country. Horses nowadays have become rare in agglomerations...

The magdalenepublishing site is informative indeed.
The gardians' staff with the trident is the equivalent of the cowboys' rope.
The difference is that the cowboys keep the cattle herded together (America is a pretty big island, so they don't want them scattered all over the place) and catch one cow with the rope, whereas the gardians ride into the herd (the Camargue is a small island, so the bull wouldn't go far) and with the trident push one of them out of the group and corner him.
This is particularly dangerous, because of the fighting experience accumulated over time by the bulls (in Spain they are killed at the end of the fight, which reduces the risk; in the Camargue they go back to the herd), and because of their sharp horns (at a good height to slice the horse's belly open, or the rider's femoral artery).

I never dared to ask a gardian what he'd think of riding into such a herd of fighting bulls on a "broken" horse, which would have lost its natural authority...
Traditionally, many gardians have three working horses: a young one in the learning process, a middle-aged one for current work, and an old one for particularly difficult jobs.

The fifteen pairings in "Love Calls You By Your Name" seem pairs of opposites to me. Concerning: 1) a person, 2) become an artist on stage, 3) fixed as a persona in a film, 4) become a prisoner of fame, and 5) a person again.
(Just a first approximate suggestion...)

Your box seems to be a nice and sturdy one — mine is just thin poplar wood, for one-way use only...

Jean,

Yes, I thought I remembered you did mention more on the area where you live at, but had forgotten what you said. I was being uncharacteristically lazy by not looking back through the posts to find it. Now, this time I won't forget.

Thank you for the photos of the bolo tie. And yes you are right, it looks just like the Carmargue Cross. One would wonder where he got it.

Thank you also for your description of the gardians job. It sounds quite dangerous. But any work with animals always has that possibility I guess. When you said you never dared ask one what he thought riding into a fighting herd on a 'broken' horse, I didn't get what you meant by that. Did you mean a herd of fighting bulls like in Spain or did it have something to do with the term 'broken' horse? If it is the latter, I always thought a broken horse meant the same thing as a trained horse, which I would think exactly what one would need when riding into a herd of bulls.

Also, I did find the 'chanting' that I was referring to. And it is in the song "Darkness', but not at the very end. It is near the end right before he introduces the drummer. I would assume it's on the DVD version as well? I just wondered what it was. I remember reading a story about Leonard helping someone's sick cat by doing some kind of chant or something and putting his hands on the cat. I had Dave listen to the chanting to see if he could figure it out. He of course joked about it, saying that maybe it was Leonard being overcome by the spirit. However maybe he's not that far from the truth.

I haven't listened to Love Calls You By Your Name again yet but I will.
Vickie

Leonard had a couple of those Camargue cross symbols – here’s another one -
viewtopic.php?t=14795#p182118

Hehe! There are at least 20 other live variations (some minor, some different) of those 15 official lines of Love Calls You By Your Name.

Leonard was just doing his thing with the chanting. He has done that before on quite a few occasions with Darkness and the “words” do vary. The drummer Raphael always has an interesting look on his face when Leonard turns towards him to say his thing. Another song I remember with something similar is I Can’t Forget where he recites during the song not apart from it, two different verses from two different poems (not his) at different concerts. And at one concert he speaks the verses in two different languages.

Vickie wrote: Should I listen to More Best Of Leonard Cohen before listening to his last live album, or just the last 2 songs? I can download the songs individually (which even with my clunky internet, I can do in the early morning hours when downloads are less expensive).

Yeah, maybe do that for now. If you want you can buy the album later.
My brother gave the album to me originally so that was good of him!

btw - I live in the top half of Australia. To get to one of those Aussie concerts I had to travel the distance from Idaho to almost Iceland! My house has a good view of and is a short walking distance to the sea so you are right in my case!

Alan – I hope you all had a good time at the gathering in Melbourne. I did feel my ears burning slightly

Not meaning to be dismissive of Jean's attempt, but I fear I have dispatched you all on a fool's errand!

I wrote the 15 "Love Calls You by Your Name" phrases down, and pondered them from every stance and angle that I could think of. It was not difficult to come up with connections between the two nouns within each phrase (ie, windmill and grain), but I failed to uncover any distinct pattern or relationship that would apply to more than just a couple of the 15 phrases.

It is interesting how the 15 very short phrases all immediately conjure up vivid mental images (at least they do for me). Maybe the key to understanding the phrases lies not in the nouns themselves, but in the "betweens;" maybe Cohen is asking us to ponder the vast gray areas that exist between the absolutes in our lives. In the alternative, it is always possible that "Dave's Rule" comes into play. "Dave's Rule" states that sometimes Cohen "chose the words he did because they rhyme and sound awesome together."

I remember reading (maybe in Nadal's book) that "Love Calls You by Your Name" originally had a different title, so I will ask B4 if she recalls it. Also B4, I would love to see alternative lyrics for this song.

I hadn't realized this before, but the lyric "between the snowman and the rain" is similar to the line "just another snowman standing in the sleet and rain" in the "Thousand Kisses Deep" poem Cohen often recited (in an exquisite manner) at concerts. (Vickie, this recitation is on "Live in London" if I am not mistaken.

More geography: B4, so I guess you are in Queensland. I envy your having a view of the ocean, gazing out to the horizon from the beach always makes me think of how insignificant we all really are. Jean, hope your country environment remains rural; where I am was very rural when we moved here 35 years ago, but development has encroached and will continue. We still have considerable wildlife, but it is only a matter of time before it will be driven westward.

4

B4real wrote:

Vickie wrote: Should I listen to More Best Of Leonard Cohen before listening to his last live album, or just the last 2 songs?...

Yeah, maybe do that for now. If you want you can buy the album later.

4- Thanks! I am listening to Never Any Good right now. I love the country swing of it and of course the lyrics, "I can't forget where my lips have been, those holy hills, that deep ravine. I was never any good, never any good, never any good at lovin' you." Such a charmer.

Thank you for the additional bolo tie link and the info on his chanting. It must have had some kind of meaning to him though. I can't imagine Leonard doing anything for a 'random' no reason in concert or ever really.

its4inthemorning wrote:.... I failed to uncover any distinct pattern or relationship that would apply to more than just a couple of the 15 phrases..... Maybe the key to understanding the phrases lies not in the nouns themselves, but in the "betweens;

4- I think you are right about the betweens. It's all in what happens during those betweens or more, what happens when those two entities meet and there is no more between because they are one. Just like with true love, it calls you by your name because there is no between between you and your beloved. It hits you just like when those 2 sides of the between meet. The images he conjures with the between in each of those phrases is so strong and clear because true love is strong and clear and vivid... and of course not without intense pleasure and pain. I am not sure if that made sense, but that is how I always thought of the song.

....the lyric "between the snowman and the rain" is similar to the line "just another snowman standing in the sleet and rain" in the "Thousand Kisses Deep" poem Cohen often recited (in an exquisite manner) at concerts. (Vickie, this recitation is on "Live in London" if I am not mistaken.

Yes! I immediately thought of "between the snowman and the rain' when I saw/heard it on the DVD.

About the wildlife over there 4, I remember when I lived in rural New England for a few years, I saw bear more often than I ever did out West. I always supposed it was because their safe areas in the East are few, and they cannot escape being seen so easily like here.
Vickie

Vickie, as I said before, "break", to me, seems a pretty un-funny replacement term for "teach".
Of course, the "politically correct" interpretation is that it means to "train" a horse, but the cleavage between the ideal and the often observed reality is shown pretty well by exactly that chosen term.
Would anybody go and "break" a dog, a pupil, a student, a trainee, an artist, a worker, a managing director, a minister, a king, a president — instead of teaching or training or educating them?

In "The Future", there is
Give me absolute control
over every living soul

and in "Ballad of the Absent Mare", there is
the iron and the gold
that he nailed to her feet
when he was the lord

That's what we are like.
And with horses this human characteristic shows.
Because horses can't complain.

Now the clasp of this union
who fastens it tight?
Who snaps it asunder
the very next night
Some say the rider
Some say the mare

The impermanence of the centaur.
(And yet, for 6000 years horses were a precondition for the development that turned out to be ours...)

As for where Leonard Cohen might have got his Camargue cross: just google "bolo tie camargue"...

In what concerns the option that Leonard Cohen might simply be filling up empty space with words, I agree with Vickie that it's the last option I'd take, and only after all my efforts at understanding would have failed (or I'd discover pertinent "gibberish" clues).

In those 15 pairs, there is twice the word "stain" (in S1L5 and in S3L8), with two different meanings. This alone would be a clue that the whole thing is not gibberish. Also the five triplets of pairs are different from each other, depending on the situations in their respective stanzas...

And I'm with the two of you in the thought that the term "between" is important.
To me it is very similar to this (in "Ballad of the Absent Mare"):
and she's there where
the light and the darkness divide

This is a place like the one in "Democracy", a place of:
the feel
that this ain't exactly real,
or it's real, but it ain't exactly there.

Your description, Vickie, makes perfect sense. Leonard Cohen conjures up that which cannot be grasped, and it is in the non-existing no-man's-land "between" those things that "love calls you by your name".

Light and darkness don't divide. Nor do Yin and Yang in Taoism. Nor do Good and Evil in the monotheist version of Taoism — in Zoroastrianism. There is no "between" between these things.
On the contrary, the opposites are all to be found again at the very heart of their respective opposite.

We can transcend day and night in the 24-hour day, but that won't make the 12-hour day be dark, nor the 12-hour night be light. The situation we are in, our particular and unique here and now, is the very situation we are in indeed; we are not in some transcendence.
(Though it all may be one in the higher eye / Down here where we live it is two — "Different Sides")
A 24-hour day is neither light, nor dark, nor grey. It is a theoretical notion — necessary, but theoretical. In our practical life we have to deal with day and with night.

That's why we need love to call us by our name, and that's why there need to be such incongruous places — for love to do so.

(Did I ever say that in my eyes Leonard Cohen was a priest?)

Jean,
Yes you did mention that he is a priest in your eyes . I am mulling over this and the other very interesting things you said in your post and will get back to you as soon as I am feeling better. I like very much the distinction between breaking and training a horse... or, as in my case, a donkey. I also like your references to Leonard's words and how they apply to horses or anything or anyone that we want to help in general, even a child. I think I have mentioned that I am a school employee, which is likely why I am not feeling well (They can be germ buckets sometimes. Very cute, but germ buckets nevertheless!).
I will also read again what you said about Love Calls You By Your Name.
Thank you for your thoughtful input Jean.
Vickie

4 wrote: I remember reading (maybe in Nadal's book) that "Love Calls You by Your Name" originally had a different title, so I will ask B4 if she recalls it. Also B4, I would love to see alternative lyrics for this song.

Here you go 4, your wish is my command and info for others who may be interested -

Love Tries To Call You By Your Name is an early version of Love Calls You By Your Name.
It was recorded on Songs of LC outtakes in 1967 and the studio version has been re-written from this.

Also here are some alternate and altered lines for “Between the.....”

ocean bobbing/bubbling and/in your open vein
darkness and its shabby/golden/glorious/glittering/ stage
hour and this/our lousy/shabby age
papier-mâché lane and the moon
moonlight and the papier-mâché lane
the tunnel and the/your super/speeding/very urgent/hurtling train
victim and his amazing stain
dancing master and his cane
windmill and the ripening grain
sundial and the/with its/your/silver chain
traitor and her alleged pain

4 wrote: More geography: B4, so I guess you are in Queensland. I envy your having a view of the ocean, gazing out to the horizon from the beach always makes me think of how insignificant we all really are. Jean, hope your country environment remains rural; where I am was very rural when we moved here 35 years ago, but development has encroached and will continue. We still have considerable wildlife, but it is only a matter of time before it will be driven westward.

4, You go to the top of the class in geography (actually I got an A for it at high school) because that’s where I am. And it seems we all live in a rural setting, well semi-rural at least. Like you, when I built my house by the sea there were dirt roads and no traffic lights for forty kilometres but as you said, development is encroaching and will continue. But the wildlife here is very prolific and carries on regardless of increased human presence. Just about fifteen steps from my front door a pair of curlew birds have made their nest out in the open on a pile of dirt. They take turns in sitting as still as garden statues on their eggs and the nest is never left un-attended. Yesterday, four ibis birds were grazing in my front garden between the house and the curlews nest – Ha! Just realised that’s another “between” The female curlew who is much smaller than the ibises actually left the nest and bravely and insistently chased them all away! I don’t know if you’ve ever heard the night cry of a curlew – it’s somewhat mournful.

Speaking of my sea view, it definitely invites contemplation on the meaning of life and other such things for sure. As I write this, the sun is slowly setting here and I’m watching the white sails of the sailing boats travelling smoothly across to the islands as night comes on - I always think of that song at this time of the day when I look out to a calm sea.

B4- Thank you for all of the lyrics you posted on Love Calls You By Your Name. I can see why Leonard wanted to elaborate on the lyrics that were in the studio version, but I love that he pared them down to what they are. We can all imagine the crash of the 'between' in our own minds without the extra words. But the other lyrics are all so interesting and my favorite was "hurtling train"
Your home in Queensland sounds very beautiful. A sea view is the best of all views. I liked your description of the birds near your home very much. I have a wavering appreciation of birds, but I liked what you said about yours.

Alan---I am waiting to comment more on the 'betweens" of the pairings in LCYBYN, because we haven't heard from you on this. You must have something to add. Or if you don't, please make something up. It will be surely be better than what I might say.

Vickie
feeling better now

Hi Vickie,
I have a desk top computer and a smart phone that is smarter than I am, but no laptop or tablet. When travelling I only have internet access via my phone. I have been following this thread while in Melbourne but am reluctant to reply while on the road as I have a terrible affliction in that my fingers are frequently drawn to the wrong keys on my phone. As a result, many corrections need to be made to keep my posts vaguely readable.
Got home yesterday and now I have caught up with other stuff, so ...

Alan- Thank you for sharing your memories of the gathering at your house. Were you all friends beforehand and just happened to have Leonard Cohen in common, or did he bring you together?

I started indoctrinating my wife as soon as I met her, she was unaware of Leonard prior to meeting me. I have been working on our regular friends for decades, with varying success. One must be diplomatic not to overdo it. I made contact with Dean (from Adelaide) prior to the 2010 local concert and we met before the show. Dean had previously met Andrew (Darby) {moderator of this very Forum} and he came over for the 2013 concert and stayed in my house. Andrew had met Alice previously and she lives in Adelaide, so a "no-brainer" to invite her to our gathering.
Somebody else stayed with us; I can't forget, but I don't remember who .
I encountered Junk in Melbourne at the gathering Andrew organised before the 2013 Melbourne concert, and he had arranged to come to Adelaide, so he got an invitation. Other attendees were hangers on.
So a simple answer to your question - Yes and no.

Alan---I am waiting to comment more on the 'betweens" of the pairings in LCYBYN, because we haven't heard from you on this. You must have something to add.

Being away and being reluctant to post while away has given me a bit of time to think about this subject.
As previously stated, I find some of LC's lyrics mysterious and unless he has explained them himself, any assessment is just an opinion. e.g. You say they chained you to your fingernails. For most of us our fingernails are permanently attached, so I have no clue about that one.
Regarding the betweens there seems to be no pattern. Before I rechecked the lyrics, I had the feeling that they related to things in close approximation - snowman and the rain ... darkness and the stage ... victim and his stain etc. In these examples there are significant differences and similarities between the objects but really no separation. As a result of this I had got to thinking along the lines of Stephen Hawking's singularity before the Big Bang, where everything and nothing are the same, everywhere and nowhere are the same and past, present and future are all the same. In these places of mixed state, place and time Love calls you by your name.
However that doesn't work for ocean and your open vein other than the fact that the chemistry of blood is not much different from the chemistry of sea water, whence we came. (Sorry if you are a creationist).
V1 You thought that it could never happen ...
V2 The women in your scrapbook ...
V3 Shouldering your loneliness ...
V4 the very love which I, I do not wish to claim ...
V5 Was I, was I only limping, was I really lame ...
Denial -> Blame -> Reluctant acceptance -> more denial -> self doubt of the unloved (and unloving?) state.
Waken up, pay attention, open your eyes and ears!!! here, right here ... Love calls you by your name.
Isn't that what we all want - to love and be loved?
I love this song and I hope it loves me.

Darkness The chanting is just vocal sounds, sometimes referred to as "scat". There are no words, just nonsense and it varied from performance to performance. In the 2013 Adelaide concert he didn't do it at all.
I have made a compilation video from several performances to highlight the differences over time. Leonard started performing the song playing the guitar, but at some stage decided not to and just used the hand held microphone. I don't think he sang scat while he had the guitar, but not all performances were recorded, so I can't be sure.
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=krtlICIeDXI
I Can't Forget This is different - LC recited various lines of poetry during the instrumental solos, again varying between performances.

Adelaide, where I have lived for over 40 years is a coastal city in the south of the country, on a gulf rather than open ocean. From my house, I can see the sea, but don't get salt spray which is good. It only takes 5 - 6 minutes to drive my dogs to the beach. We live in a middle suburb, half an hour from the city centre.
Wildlife - the occasional possum and koala, but mainly birds. We have several large trees and flowering shrubs, along with a couple of bird baths, so several types of parrot visit regularly as do magpies. The magpies have beautiful vocalisation both singly and in a group (called carolling). Sadly we also have Noisy Miners (not to be confused with Indian Mynahs). They bully the smaller native birds and keep most of them away. They seem to have invaded the suburbs in the last decade or two.

Bed time now.

Alan

Hi Alan!
I love your post very much. It is one of our best.... (just sayin').

AlanM wrote: I started indoctrinating my wife as soon as I met her, she was unaware of Leonard prior to meeting me. I have been working on regular friends for decades, with varying success. One must be diplomatic not to overdo it.’

Ah... I struggle with overdoing it. Sometimes I just err on the side of saying nothing at all. But I loved your story of who was at your gathering and why.

You say they chained you to your fingernails. For most of us our fingernails are permanently attached, so I have no clue about that one.”

I am with you in that it is only Leonard who really knows what Leonard meant, and maybe not even him. But I feel being “chained to your fingernails” is meant to imply the pain of having those fingernails torn out.

As I was trying to word my reply to your post, I realized that I was about to quote everything you said and then reply to it, which is crazy. I guess I just really liked a lot of what you said. Especially the part about Stephen Hawkin's Big Bang and how

"In these places of mixed state, place and time, Love calls you by your name"

I loved also ,

"Waken up, pay attention, open your eyes and ears!!! here, right here ... Love calls you by your name…. Isn't that what we all want - to love and be loved?...I love this song and I hope it loves me.”

..........Because, I love this song too.

Thank you also for your thoughts on the 'chanting' in Darkness. (By the way, this is the second time that I have clicked on a YouTube link from you and it tells me that I have to create a channel to upload it? I was just trying to watch it) Anyway...I have heard of 'scat', and I never thought of Leonard's vocals as that until now, but maybe you are right.

I loved most of all your description of you place in Adelaide. The fact that you have occasional koala around is amazing, but parrots too? We have magpies here, but maybe they are not the same as there?
Thanks again for when you reply on this thread!

Jean Fournell wrote: The impermanence of the centaur.

Jean- This is just one of the comments of yours that I wanted to comment on and I have questions about, but I am having trouble with how to make sense. I know what I want to ask, but I don't know how to ask it yet. Probably because like you said in your post, “Leonard Cohen conjures that which cannot be grasped", but I will get there.
Thank you for your posts and how they make me think.
Vickie

We have magpies here, but maybe they are not the same as there?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYEYc8Ge3nw
I couldn't find a video with a group of magpies singing that was representative of the group sound (usually a family). There is one you may see of 3 wet birds, but they are just singing individually.
Parrot family members that we see include: Rainbow lorrikeet; Musk Lorikeet; Eastern Rosella; Adelaide Rosella; Sulphur Crested Cockatoo and Galah. There are Red Tailed Black Cockatoos in the area - we see them in flight sometimes, but they have not called in to see us - maybe not LC fans.
BTW Galah is a word used in Strine to describe someone foolish (that is the polite version).

Alan

Oh how I have underestimated my friends here. Concentrating only on the trees of the relationships of the word/phrase pairs I missed the forest of the overall message, and threw in the towel by invoking "Dave's Rule."

Now you all have me convinced that this song is all about the betweens themselves, not the word/phrases (which Jean defines, quite accurately, as "incongruous places"):

Vickie: "It's all what happens between these betweens."

Jean: "A 24-hour day is neither light, nor dark, nor grey...(but) in our practical world we have to deal with night and day."

Alan: "In these places of mixed state, place and time, Love calls you by your name."

In a way I now like the original working title, "Love Tries to Call You By Your Name" a little better (thanks B4).

Cohen Fans: Alan, to me it would be nirvana to be able to host a group of people who were all fans, not having to hide the Cohen albums and CDs from critical eyes, and feeling free to discuss whether "Songs of Love and Hate" is enlightening rather than depressing.

Cohen Fans II: Alan said, "I started indoctrinating my wife..." Sad that we are so out of step that we need to apply politburo tactics. Hope the indoctrination worked and that "reeducation" was not required.

While I only referenced snippets of your posts, I thoroughly enjoyed all that was written!

4

Some words by LC about this song:

"Here's a song that searches out the middle place between the beginning and the end of things".

"This next song is about that place between the beginning and the end of things, in which you summon yourself".

"Here's a song that tries to locate that moment when you sing all those diverse songs and find out who you are".

I'm adding a few more alternations and alternate lines to LCYBYN –

Your body caged in all these legends...

You say they chained you to your sharpened fingernails...

Shouldering your solitude
Like a gun you’ll never, ever learn to aim
Wandering into this old movie house
And you claw the halls of fame...

I travel down the/these hundred wooden steps...
I travel down a hundred and thirty steps...

Where are the paths that all your leather heroes came
Wondering out loud as the bandage rolls away
Was he, was he only limping, was he not/really lame...

Is it love that calls you by your name?

That last line is the last line sung in the song on at least one occasion thus turning the official statement into a question. Interestingly, it makes me relate to the original title of this song with the word “Tries” included because in the end, it appears to not be a definite given situation but a state of still searching for it.
(And I wrote that before I heard LC's words and have edited this post to add them at the top ....hummm)

Also seeing as we are talking about wildlife I thought I'd add this about something extremely larger than birds and small animals. Someone recently shot an over 17 feet crocodile in the area and there is stated an official reward for “information leading to the murderer of this animal”. This monster sized crocodile lived for well over a hundred years in aptly named Alligator Creek. He was not a man eater and everyone knew he was there. There are numerous crocodiles around here and you have to be careful all the time when near water. They are one of my worst fears living here and I nearly got taken by one many years ago but obviously my number wasn’t up!

And living so close to the sea the view and climatic situations can change at the drop of a hat! The smoke from a massive bushfire inland has been blown here by strong winds and the sea is topped with white capped waves. Not very calm today! The islands appear ghost like and atmospheric. The sunset tonight will surely be spectacular! I sometimes take my view for granted but every now and then something reminds me how fortunate I truly am.

Oh B4-
I love all of your additional lyrics, because they tell us so much. A word here or there, or even a comma can make such a difference, especially for someone trying to catch up. It helps a lot to see his progression.

On the other hand, I was very upset regarding the crocodile shooting. I am so sorry to hear that. I can see why you are afraid. I Googled it and read that it upsets the 'pecking order' among males in the area and would cause more aggression. When we were stationed in Kodiak, I had your same nightmares, but they were about bears. We had bears breaking into homes in our Coasts Guard neighborhood, and it was hard to sleep. If we ever have a chance to share a beer or a glass of wine some day, I would like to hear about your croc experience! I still have wild animal dreams from time to time here.

As for your view and your description of the sea...

I sometimes take my view for granted but every now and then something reminds me how lucky I truly am.

Please never forget how lucky you are. For so, so many reasons!! People may say luck is really fate and not luck, but I for one believe that is BS. We can make our own luck by making good choices, but otherwise, it is a roll of the dice (or a birth right)!

4- You again have voiced some of my own thoughts, so thank you!

Jean- Sorry for taking so long to get back about your post.

I felt at first that I had some questions regarding what you had said about our subject (LCYBYN) and also what you said about equines. I realize now though, that those questions were mostly my brain saying, “What?”, because I was trying to process what you were saying, but I was agreeing with most of it.

About LCYBYN and the ‘betweens’ , when you said:

Leonard Cohen conjures that which cannot be grasped”

It reminded me of what I said in one of my first posts here:

Every so often (not often enough) you will read a particular book or even just a passage from an author or an old poem or watch a movie or a certain light hits you over some hills and it just gets you, like it is a bridge to that thing that fills you with such an emotion you can’t describe, but you know you are so happy and sad to feel it all at once and you just think, “there it is again” and you're glad it’s still there and you can hold it in your hand for a moment. That is how listening to Leonard Cohen makes me feel.

So I wanted to agree with what you said about "that what cannot be grasped" It wasn't a question but a comment that I am glad you get what I was saying.

I do have a question though about what you said here

Jean Fournell wrote:The impermanence of the centaur.

What does that mean? I know equines through history have allowed man to be transient and therefore not permanent, but I am sure that you are talking about something else.

Alan- Thank you again for the video link of the magpie. They are different than ours, and with a much prettier song. You and B4 are making me want to come to Australia. Dave's 24-year-old daughter Jessica has always had a crush on Australia every since I met her when she was 5. She loves animals and was devastated when Steve Irwin passed. Last year, she did a work/study there (In Port Douglas I think... is it near either you or B4?) for a few weeks and sent us some awesome pictures. Here is one. (I hope I am not in trouble for getting off Leonard topic!!)