hell bent on war

elazar · Post by **elazar** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:40 am

here is something interesting,from msnbc.i did previously think that to post any information(read "propaganda") was pointless,but i wanted to share the other side of the coin,as it gets a nonpreportionate amount of attention here.(hardly any)

BRITISH AND American commanders had expressed hope that Shiites in the south, resentful of long years of repressive rule by Saddam
Hussein’s minority Sunni Muslim regime, would seize the opportunity presented by the coalition invasion and rise against the regime’s forces.
British forces surrounded Basra on Saturday but chose not to enter the city right away, concerned that street-to-street battles with remaining Iraqi militia and “Saddam Fedayeen” paramilitary units would cause horrible civilian casualties.
“Gunmen, irregular forces, coming forward with civilians in front of them” have plagued British forces ringing the city, according to Col. Chris Vernon, a British Army commander who spoke to reporters. “Clearly, we cannot engage the gunmen for risk of causing undu civilian death"

An anti-Saddam resistance group based in Iran, the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, confirmed the revolt.
“We confirm an uprising is taking place in Basra, but we cannot give more details for the time being,” said Mohamed Hadi Asadi, a spokesman for Shiite groupe

also,
NBC News’ Jim Miklaszewski reported from the Pentagon that intercepted Iraqi communications indicated that the Republican Guard was under orders to use chemical weapons once U.S. ground troops crossed a line around Baghdad drawn roughly between Karbala and Al Kut.
Rumsfeld, at the news conference, said intelligence indicated a greater likelihood that the Republican Guard would use the banned weapons, but added, “Whether it will happen or not remains to be seen.”
The Republican Guard controls the bulk of Iraq’s chemical weaponry, most of which can be fired from artillery or short-range rocket launchers generally capable of hitting targets from a few dozen miles or less, according to U.S. officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.
saluté
elazar

elazar · Post by **elazar** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:46 am

i have previously been very passionate on this issue,but i grew quite weary early on.my conversation with tom was great.i listened to his veiw point which was extremely interesting and thought prevoking.i gained insight into his opinion,and not incite.we found some common ground.

i think this is the stuff peace is made of.

that said,i strongly disagree with the view that this war is a personal vendetta of bush,that our security interests are not in danger if we leave saddam to his devices,and that we mean harm to the iraqi people.

we are putting men and women on the ground,in danger,so that there will be the utmost minimal civilian deaths.bagdad,a city of 4 million,is the nightmare of all nightmare.i dont think there is any doubt that saddams factions will abuse this "weakness".its apperant to me that these are not viable "partners in peace".they view diplomacy itself as a "weakness".
maybe we could agree with saddam that the sky is blue,or that water is wet,but what else?that is something to build on,perhaps.
"bush declares grass green".
"hussien agrees".
i hate to see people die,whoever.i hate war.who doesnt?
that unfortunately is not a rhetorical question.10 points if you answered saddam.
so i was a little suprised when none of the international groups decry the saddam regime with the same fervour as they do bush and america.
i dont suspect anyone was enjoying the news broadcast of the pows.except as linda said,those who are involved in this crime against humanity.but what with all the vocality, i thought some pro peace people would say something.
and i must be experianceing heavy cencorship,but i havent seen any similar "photo ops" perpetrated by the coalition forces.

saluté
elazar

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:09 am

Yes, elazar, I heard this afternoon about the uprising that you're talking about. I hope that it's true. My distrust does not reside only with this administration. It extends to Saddam, as well. With his claims regarding the upcoming Baghdad invasion triggering the greatest war and victory of all, the final one, etc., I have grave concerns about what lies in wait for the Allied forces and all the civilians in Baghdad, as well. The winds blow and the chemicals may not restrict themselves to 25+ miles out. If they do this to the "U.S. troops" [I wish the words used had been "Allied troops," so doing something to the British and Australians could with certainty be included as equally horrid], they reportedly will regret it [military response to it non-specific]. Likewise, with the fires that are set and burning there to confuse the bombs, I have to suspect that smoke inhalation is a problem for those living in the area.

What else do they have in addition to what's already being mentioned? With their intimate knowledge of Baghdad, coupled with our virtual ignorance, the potential for being turned into a land mine [buildings gutted? tons of explosives to be remotely set off? who knows?]. As I fear the worst, I pray for the "best" [excuse the use of that word]. With replicas of U.S. uniforms being used by some of Saddam's forces, I am even wondering if the surrenders already made are real. How do the Allied troops monitor and control 3,500 people. I only hope it is not a Helen-of-Troy, military maneuver.

I just want everyone home. Now. I also see the stress and anxiety levels rising at my job with both co-workers and clients. We are reportedly into Code Red terror alert now, as well.

There's more job possibilities for Godzilla. One I saw come available today pays $18-$20 USD per hour.....welder/cutter - stainless steel, 12-14 hours per day. The street the company is located on? "Military Road" ~ real address. There are more "dollar" issues to be listed, but I just don't have the energy to do it right now.

~ Elizabeth

Linda · Post by **Linda** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:58 am

If Saddam's army uses these chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons will France, Germany and the rest help us I wonder.

elazar · Post by **elazar** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 6:29 am

here is a link to a site to adopt- a- troop. currently they are swamped,so i will look for more similar sites in the meantime.
http://www.operationmilitarysupport.com/

this site is great,http://www.adoptaplatoon.org/

here is family attached to military,or f.a.m. they have an extensive website,and directions on how to send letters etc..are elaborate.
http://www.famglobal.org/

i found this interesting.its reply letters from the troops in the gulf war. http://museum.dva.state.wi.us/RC_letterssoldiers.asp

this one has all the info.its a news story on letters.
http://www.wndu.com/news/032003/news_19045.php

i found this one link for british troops,will continue looking...
http://www.servicepals.com/directory/pa ... d/113.html

for the austrailan troops they set up an email address.heres the info. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/ ... 39167.html
saluté
elazar

tom.d.stiller · Post by **tom.d.stiller** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:05 am

Just a collection of random thoughts...

Linda,
Saddam didn't drive the Inspectors out of his country a couple of years ago. The UN withdrew them on US pressure. Madeline Albright had threatened the US might attack. That's the only reason why the Inspectors didn't continue their very effective work that destroyed more weapons of mass destruction in Iraq than the War in 1991 did, and more than the present one will.

Elazar,
I can only speak for myself, and not for the "pro peace people" as a whole: Has it really come to this: we're expected to vocalize everything which is self-evident? Lest someone might feel compelled to conclude or suspect something else?
Personal vendetta? I cannot but quote: "...that man tried to kill my dad!" (George W. Bush) This, of course, doesn't explain everything, but it is part of it.
POW: Just yesterday I saw some footage by an "embedded journalist" showing an Iraqi POW as he was questioned by a coalition soldier. I'm not too sure about which TV station it was; they had concatenated clippings from Sky, CNN and abc. (Self-evident, but let me add it: I wasn't too pleased by looking at this.)

Byron,
it won't be too nice. You're right about that.
Let's indulge in the modest joy of understatement. What else is there left in these times?
By the way, since my dry brain doesn't seem to work too well these days, and as you are our local expert on Tennyson: Someone made a fine observation about his "Charge of the Light Brigade", but I can't remember the source. The remark added up to "This is beautiful; but this is not the war." Can you help me out of my forgetfulness?
(Something else left besides understatement, it seems.)

So let me finish with a quote from that:

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

I won't start reasoning now who blundered in the present war. We all know who dies: not only "the six hundred".
Those who pray: begin!
Be blessed
Tom

Nan · Post by **Nan** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:55 am

Elazer,

I want to thank you for your kind words about the United States. When I read through this thread and saw your post expressing grief over the torture of American POW's I was deeply appreciative. And I did think that you received a rather cold and cruel response from a couple of the members. But what I found more disturbing was the resounding silence.

tom.d.stiller,

Regarding this silence you wrote ---"Has it really come to this: We're expected to vocalize everything which is self-evident". The United States and it's soldiers have been vilified on this thread. It seems no one has trouble being vocal in their criticisims. And any "sympathy" always has a caveat: "Just yesterday I saw some footage by an "embedded journalist" showing an Iraqi POW as he was questioned by a coalition soldier." An Iraqi POW being questioned by a coalition soldier isn't quite the same as photos of tortured American POWS.

Byron,

I do not know of anyone who counted the bombs falling on the Presidental Palaces and compounds of Saddam Hussein. Or took delight in it. And as for your statement: "Have a look at your own conscience. I suspect that you did indeed struggle with your conscience, but you won." You are really saying that those of us who believe this is a justified war are knowingly acting against our consciences. In effect, we are unscrupulous.

Lizzytysh,

"It seems to be uncomfortable for U.S. audiences only when it's U.S. victims". How do you know this?

"It is noted on a CNN site that "U.S. forces allowed journalists with them to do the same with Iraqi POWS {the speaker noted}." Elazer was speaking of the torture photos not the mere filming of Iraqi's POWS

"Of course, we may whitewash what we film in order to continue making them to be the only 'bad guys'." Or are you suggesting our soldiers are torturing Iraqi POWS and the media are doctoring the film?

"You could even go so far as to say that U.S. Army soldiers knew where they were headed and what they were trained to do, whereas the innocent Iraqi citizens had only been praying to survive until now..." So the U.S. Army soldiers got what was coming to them?

"Please don't be misled to think that the same does not occur with U.S. and their POWS. We just don't see it." Are you saying that our soldiers in Iraq are torturing people?

Byron · Post by **Byron** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:45 am

Nan, I did not even suggest that people took delight in watching the missiles falling onto Baghdad. To make it absolutely clear, I was asking people to look at themselves as they would if they had slowed down to pass a terrible road accident, out of morbid curiosity. My British understatement is going well under your 'radar.' I asked people to consider their own actions when a 'particular broadcast' was about to be shown. Once again, I find that some people have difficulty in understanding the obvious when I point to a specific incident.
As to the response to certain matters not being raised by others by 'a resounding silence' do I have to state what is entirely self-evident to all of us. British understatement also includes not making a noise when silence can speak a thousand words when those who have eyes to see and ears to hear have no reason to state the blindingly obvious. Why do you think that some poetry receives no responses at all? It's because it doesn't even warrant a reply. Why? Because it is blindingly obvious that anyone can see it is not worthy of comment. And before you go hunting through my poetry postings, I count myself amongst the ones who have had their work ignored. It wasn't worthy of note and I am able to see why.
There are many matters which the Brits could raise about this war, but we are too polite a nation to go treading on toes when all it would do is to personally hurt people. Similarly, we do not go around stating the obvious. Why should we. If you want to read far more into simple statements, that's your problem, not mine. I'll break from British reserve to put that point so clearly that you will understand what I'm saying. Stop being paranoid, it does you no good in the eyes of others. I had asked for no replies to my posting about TV footage and consciences, because I wanted people to look at their own reasons for choosing to watch what would be horrendous images. Is that clarification enough for you to understand?
I said, "It is one for you alone as you sit in front of your computer screen" and I was specifically pointing you at 'your' TV screen and 'your' computer screen.

Byron · Post by **Byron** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:36 pm

Paula, thank you for your clarity in explaining to others the point about understanding the cultural disparities between the countries of this small world. I was feeling very alone out there.

You alluded to one factor in this war which I had not even thought about and which I should have seen as being 'blindingly obvious.'

Namely, the bravery of British service personnel, who represent a minority of the allied/coilition forces.

We have covered the fact that Britain, like Japan, is a small island.

The land mass of the United States Of America is huge in comparison to our island.

The population of the United States of America is huge in comparison to our population.

The number of British service personnel committed by our Government to the allied forces, is far more than the American service personnel, 'by comparison with our per capita head of population.'

I am not criticising any American commitment, bravery, sacrifice, loyalty or determination here.
ALL of the troops in the midddle east are far braver than I.

I thought that your point about how much the British people are proud of our troops/airmen could be shown in a way which displays how far the British people have gone, in sending so many young people to fight alongside their American compatriots.

I now feel very humble when I digest these facts and realise how much my country has to thank our volunteers in our armed services.

The allied forces are volunteers. The Iraqi forces contain very many conscripts who are now between a rock and a hard place.

G-d bless all victims of Sadam's machinations.

Byron · Post by **Byron** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:51 pm

Tom.d. I have not studied Tennyson and so there is a gap in my brain as far as his works are concerned. I apologise to any of you who have discovered him and appreciate him.
The quote you ask about is actually French, and given recent remarks about that country, I find a certain irony in the source of the following:

C'est magnifique mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

It is magnificent, but it is not war.

It is from Pierre Francois Joseph Bosquet at The Battle of Balaclava, in October, 1854.

Best regards from Byron.

elazar · Post by **elazar** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:42 pm

i think this stance of "why state the obvious-silence is in order" is horribly tragic.that can be given as an excuse for any number of "passive regrets"
for any atrocitys that occur.
if one is outraged by something,this does not require "proof" or "recognition",on anyones part,true.somethings are better left unsaid.but in this cicumstance,i think it would have had an effect on these murderers if the international community would have protested this deplorable action commited.regerdless of ones opinion of this war,are lives not lives anymore?is death and humilation not despicable as it was always?were iraqis recieving the same "treatment",all of a sudden this may become "noteworthy" and the silence i presume would be broken.

may g-d bless and protect,
elazar

Byron · Post by **Byron** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:58 pm

elazar, I agree with you that these murderers should be held to account by the international community.
If you have a look at some of my earlier postings, you will find that I have been asking people on the Forum to join me in giving active support to Amnesty International.
This organisation has real 'clout' when it comes to exposing injustice, torture, murder, kidnapping, abuse etc., all around the world.
I gave one example of pressure put on a south american regime, when thousands of us sent e-mails to the authorities in that country.
Within days, their government was pleading with A.I., to stop the bombardment of concern from all around the World, because their computer systems could not function with the overload of concern, and the prisoner(s) had now been released.
The little people can make a difference elazar.
Come and join us?
I am NOT speaking on behalf of Amnesty International.
This is a personal view.

tom.d.stiller · Post by **tom.d.stiller** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:29 pm

Dear Nan,

welcome back.

I didn't compare anything when I wrote the passage you refer to. Elazar had stated he hadn't seen Iraqi POW's on TV; i added that I have seen them. It is not my way of thinking to dust everything and everyone with the same broom.

Hopefully the Americans have not been tortured (I take for granted that US Soldiers didn't torture their prisoners.) At least neither the Secretary of Defense nor any of the involved journalist stated that there are hints of the Americans having been tortured, and after looking at the pictures I didn't detect any proof either.

I just spent some time reviewing most of the thread, and I didn't find that anybody here ever "vilified the United States and its soldiers". There has been some harsh criticism of the present administration, some of it maybe overdone, but administrations came and went in the past, and will continue coming and going in the future; administrations have been criticised before, and will keep on being criticised in times to come. Both things are essentials of Democracy. But I haven't read one word that attacked the People and/or the Nation as such.
And regarding the soldiers, all participants have explicitely stated that criticism of the political and military leaders must not lead to any denigration of the soldiers.

I hope that these lines can contribute to a better understanding of our mutual positions.

Tom

tom.d.stiller · Post by **tom.d.stiller** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:56 pm

Dear Elazar,

I agree with most of what you said in your last post. Just allow me one remark:
If all of us wanted to "state the obvious", most participants wouldn't find the time to write anything about the less obvious. Besides the "noise" (in the technical sense of the word, meaning "output occurring along with desired information") would probably make the less obvious irretrievable for all practical purposes.
So there is, I'd say, a need to trust each other far enough to believe that we all share some basics that go without explicit statements.
Usually, when someone posts an opinion I agree with, I don't feel compelled to explicitely comment on it. Sometimes I do, though, depending on the time available, depending on wether it is a much attacked position or one all seem to agree upon etc.. If I disagree, I only say so, when I believe that I can clarify something, or if the disagreement is a deep one.

Tom

George.Wright · Post by **George.Wright** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:23 pm

I am concerned that this thread is being used to batter old targets and is missing the point of the debate. Like some allied fire which misses the enemy and hits it's own. Let those without sin cast the next stone.
Peace to all....................Georges