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Hi Jack ~

Initially, right off the top... without DUE consideration, I don't have a problem with the word rude in this context, though I admit it's jolting a bit on first glance. Rude typically has such a negative connotation; yet, I feel in this context, Leonard intentionally lowers his station in contrast to that of the master in using this particular word. For me, it at once connotes the idea of rudimentary, unpolished, un-befitting the receiver, in that the receiver deserves so much more than the speaker feels able to give, only due to the speaker's own, perceived 'ineptness' in giving due praise in fitting content and measure.

For me, without extending it to Leonard's song catalogue, the praises in this are directed at G~d and Leonard's desire to praise Him more perfectly. He recites how his own best efforts in praising, as well as life, have been inadequate. With regard to the monastery, Leonard's praises would be [in lower case] to Roshi. Even though you allow me much time, I have very little of it, and want to respond with something. I know my response is inadequate, as well. So much more I NEED to say on this verse, but the clock is calling. You already KNOW I feel out of my element in this to begin with, so I'm hoping you'll understand my own wholly inadequate response . There are so many more layers and aspects of this than I'm mentioning, and I'm sorry to have to duck out at this moment. I feel like I've been intentionally sitting at the back of the classroom, so as not to be noticed; and then, not having read today's assignment, I got called on .

Then, too, is the fact of a chair being an instrument of support, allowing a person to rest. The chair of praises here is presented as one that is not strong and sturdy, but inadequate, given its purpose. According to Christianity as I understand it, G~d created His people to praise Him... with that, it would seem that there is a need for this praise and an obligation on the part of the believer. However, it's as though he's saying, "If you had to rely on the quality of my praises... ;" as though he's failing in his duties. Still, he humbly invites Him to sit down. Enough for now... SO out of my element


~ Lizzy

I don't read your posts Elizabeth, I just see that you try again and again to reach me, to hurt me, but you can't, now that I know who you are, it was the first blow that hurted, the other ones are lost (as I hope you can finally do for good) so all your 'kindness' is lost (at least it is). It is a pity, such an amount of kindness from a kind person. As wasting your time doing anything and its contrary here is not a problem for you I guess everything is ok.

Lazariuk, I'm afraid that you have to do your sexual education with the oldest lady of the world, she probably has all the wisdom that lacks so much to me to have success in performing such a delicate mission. Have fun.


DBCohen wrote

Tchoco,

Regarding your first posting on the top of this page: unfortunately, I can’t see the image you added. Can you send it in another format, or as an attachment? I’d love to respond.

And as for your second posting later on: I certainly hope to continue the interpretation of Book of Mercy as we have done so far. I stopped at psalm I.6 and will not add others for the moment, until some more people who have been away can rejoin us and catch up. I mostly miss Simon’s contributions with the Zen angle, but he promised he’ll be back in a few days. Tom and Joe are also missed. It’s that frantic season, I guess. So psalm I.7 will be introduced already in the coming year, it seems. Happy new year to you all, once again.

D. B. Cohen

For the picture, it is the satyr of Lazariuk forces to go for a bath by some nymphs.

Very beaufiful and playful painting but that leads nowhere in regard of this thread, it looked more someting to drawn the subject to me. Pff.

Yep! DBCohen, then, wait for them to come back from all the festivities of the season. I'll come back to read later also, then. Cheers!

Tchocolatl wrote:
For the picture, it is the satyr of Lazariuk forces to go for a bath by some nymphs.

Very beaufiful and playful painting but that leads nowhere in regard of this thread, it looked more someting to drawn the subject to me. Pff.

Thank you Tchocolatl for bringing the picture into this thread. If any poem by Leonard isn't dealing with the actual lived moment we are in then it doesn't really interest me.

You seem to have some anger that is aimed at me which I don't understand. Maybe you felt that I was being rude by entering this thread with all this personal stuff that interests me. Was I being rude?

Jack

lizzytysh wrote:. You already KNOW I feel out of my element in this to begin with, so I'm hoping you'll understand my own wholly inadequate response . There are so many more layers and aspects of this than I'm mentioning~ Lizzy

Lizzy

I was trying to be very careful with my questions so that you wouldn't feel out of your element. I think you are fine just the way you are in whatever element you feel comfortable with. In the last song Leonard put out, he has the words "Stop at the surface, the surface is fine, there's no need to go any deeper" I'm pretty sure that Leonard would like you too just the way you are and wouldn't want you to be any other kind of person than who you are at the moment.

Jack

"The world of research has gone berzerk
too much paperwork" -- Bob Dylan

First, Jack, I am VERY glad that you noted those lines in Bob's song

Although we're already on #5 - where I would agree that "he" about whom the narrator speaks is the poet itself (particularly because that way of objectivization of his own suffering and state is well-used in previous book, Death of a Lady's Man, where narrator speaks about "him", and then in commentaries "he" speaks about "I" from "original text" reffering to that 2I" as "he"), and also, I'd agree that crown is maybe first sefirot.

But I'd like to go back to #4, just a little bit. It speaks, as you all said, also about writing/poetry itself ("searching among words"), writing that is also the prayer itself for Cohen, and unabbility to "speak poetry". My problems maybe will come again from matters of exact meanings, connotations and traductological problems, to called it like that:-) :

Book of Mercy, I, 4

After searching among the words, and never finding ease, I went to you, I asked you to gladden my heart. My prayer divided against itself, I was ashamed to have been deceived again, and bitterly, in the midst of loud defeat, I went out myself to gladden the heart. It was here that I found my will, a fragile thing, starving among ferns and women and snakes, I said to my will, ‘Come, let us make ourselves ready to be touched by the angel of song,’ and suddenly I was once again on the bed of defeat in the middle of the night, begging for mercy, searching among the words. With the two shields of bitterness and hope, I rose up carefully, and I went out of the house to rescue the angel of song from the place where she had chained herself to her nakedness. I covered her nakedness with my will, and we stood in the kingdom that shines toward you, where Adam is mysteriously free, and I searched among the words for words that would not bend the will away from you.

1. Women and snakes are biblically connected and my perception (culturally inheritated) immediately brought Eden in my mind. But why "ferns"? I can't recall herns were particularly mentioned in Genesis. (But I can recall it in Jurassic Park )

2. How angel became "she"? Is that only our Leonard or is there some deeper source in tradition? (Angels are supposed to be androginous)

3. Adam is misteriously free. Free from what? From woman? From original sin, made by woman+snake Of course, this is good poetry because there's always redudance of meaning, as Mat would agree. Every of this "psalms" leave bit of mistery after all interpretations, and of course that I, on some deeper level, understand that Adam (First Man, Man Itself, homo sapiesn, or just a Male?) has to be free is we now stand in "kingdom that shines toward you".

Last night I read Daniel Matt's Essential Kabbalah and I found excerpt from Zohar, quoted by Doron here, where Torah is compared with beautiful girl. I read also many other excerpts about Torah. (Also I just finished with reading Umberto Eco's novel Foucault's Pendulum.) So now whenever I see words like "words" in BoMercy, I think "Torah! Torah!" You were right, DB, it's all immersed in Jewish tradition. But with Zen overtones

The interesting fact was to read Daniel Matt's comment on that parable from Zohar (I think it's titled "About old man and ecstatic girl") - he namely compared it to one Zen koan!

Tom,
you ponder the meaning of this quote:

3. Adam is misteriously free. Free from what? From woman? Shocked From original sin, made by woman+snake

Adam was free ........from judging.

Among the ferns, in Eden, he was pure animal; natural man.
In this pre-judgemental state of almost unconscious being he was free....to be natural.
That freedom dis-appeared once he became aware of concepts of " right and wrong".....ie; once he began to "judge".
With discernment (judgement), came guilt and sin.
He was therefore no longer "free".....(a sad story of enlightenment).


Threnody

Cur’sed! all these blessed rules
cur’sed! all these goodly folk
cur’sed! all fictitious demons
snaking `round inside a bloke
hateful! is thier fear of lusting
lustful! their crave to hate
morbid! their grovelling prayer
sterile! their pearly gate
slavelike! are the fearing cowards
godlike! their pouted pride
saints external, hearts infernal
burn and scortch my heathen hide
how I hunger for my freedom
how I long..... for a long daydream
how I long for solitude
in my forest, by my stream
how I wish I never met them
never ate their law-full fruit
that fattened me into a raging
hating, cursing, cussing brute!

Wobb’ling water tickled light-rays
gently clothing pebbles small:
how I loved to lay ‘neath mellow
serenading waterfall...

matj


This is an extract from a poem I wrote about/on this theme of "The Fall". The epic poem is entitled, "The Tale of Mada Nazrat".

Tom Sakic wrote:First, Jack, I am VERY glad that you noted those lines in Bob's song

Why Tom? Why are you very glad that I noted those lines in Bob's song?

Jack

Tom,

I don’t have answers to all your questions, and as you say, and as I’ve also said several times, many interpretations are possible, and a definite answer may not always be found.

I also wondered about the ferns, and perhaps your joke about Jurassic Park actually gives the answer: since these are the most ancient plants, you’d expect them to grow in the Garden of Eden when the first human beings appeared… The poetic imagination may certainly hit on such an image.

In Jewish tradition the angels are definitely male, although in a way they are also asexual: since there are no female angels, they cannot express their masculinity in a sexual way. In Christian art, however, the angels are often depicted as quite effeminate, I think; perhaps that’s what you mean when you say that they are androgynous. Perhaps LC’s image mixes the angel with the muse, who is traditionally feminine, I believe. After all, he speaks about the “angel of song”. I also suggested earlier that when he writes about this she-angel being chained to her nakedness, the image reminded me of the picture on the back of LC’s first album, but no one commented on that. What do you think?

The phrase about Adam being free puzzled me too; indeed, free from what? Moreover, he is “mysteriously free”. So we are dealing here again with some kind of mystery and I don’t have a good answer as to its nature.

By the way, you say that we are already in psalm I.5, but in fact we’ve already started discussing I.6, in case you’ve missed it (this thread has become rather voluminous, so it’s probably easy to miss things if you are away for a few days).

And welcome back, Mat. Your poetry is always impressive.

Because in many talks I and my friends here had about that album, that was one of lines on which everybody jumped, praising it. That's why Dylan can impress me, in just two lines, hardly pronounced thru teets, he defines state of complete theory, philosophy, world of research nowadays. Anyhow, in all that talking it appeared that is probably one of best couplets in Modern Times.

My other favourite is, btw, "excuse me, Ma'am, I beg your pardon" in great, last song. Just the way he sings it is enough.

Thats funny I thought it was one of the most ridiculous lines I've heard in song in a long time. But then he may be saying it tongue-in-cheek like he does so often. If he is being serious then he shouldnt write about things he doesnt know about or he opens himself up to ridicule (except maybe in forums like this).
I would think the world of research is why we have the internet today (along with the latest sensation youtube) which makes this discussion possible and why Dylan's life was saved in 1997 when he came close to death.
The only song in Modern Times that I really liked was Ain't Talkin (that one's a keeper)...the rest range from okay to unremarkable to forgettable - he knows he can write whatever he wants and the record is gonna sell anyway.

Tom Sakic wrote: But I'd like to go back to #4, just a little bit. It speaks, as you all said, also about writing/poetry itself ("searching among words")

I'm glad that you took us back to #4

What interested me was "My prayer divided against itself" and this searching for words and this female angel.

I am going to do something here that I really hope is not inappropiate. I am going to write something about my own prayers. It is something that I wrote a long time ago about something that happened a very long time ago.

It happened a long long time ago.  I was living in a large house
shared by many people. It was during a time in my life when I felt it
to be a matter of great importance that I learn to pray.  The idea had
been placed in my head that a person could pray in such a way that
they gather all that they are and place it into a prayer to Who cannot
be imaged in any way.

I didn't know how to pray like that but I was trying and it was a
struggle. I had the idea that I was often used words with people
more to conceal than to reveal and had developed some language
habits which reflected this and so it seemed really hard for me to
pray in a way that was honest but as I said I was trying.
The room that I liked to use to pray was one that many
plants were growing and that was the plant room because it had so
many windows and even at night the moonlight and starlight and
faint far away streetlights came through the window and so it was
late one night when every one was asleep and I was in that room
praying.

I'm not sure how I looked praying in that room with the moonlight on
me. I'm not sure if the struggle I was having looked like pain or
what.  The reason that I mentioned the way I might have looked was
that during my prayer I found that I was being looked at.  I noticed
that in the doorway I was being watched by an Indian maiden. I use the
word maiden because it seems to suit somehow.

In the house was living a very beautiful young woman who during the
day was always attired in a very conservative way wearing very long
dresses etc. and always having her long hair neatly braided and worn
high. That night when I looked at her standing in the doorway watching
me pray her hair was flowing freely and flowed far pass her midsection
and she was wearing only a thin nightshirt.  

I had been praying on my knees.

When she saw that I had noticed her she came over to me and said that
she wanted to pray with me and then knelt in front of me and put her
arms around me and her hair flowed around both of us and on the
carpet. Under her hair I placed my arms around her as well. I had been
practicing celibacy for a number of years at the time.  The body that
I felt pressing against me which I  felt in my hands seemed to be the
most desireable thing that I had ever known in my life.

It became even harder to pray.  I seemed to be placed in a conflict that
threatened to tear me apart.  It seemed like I had to choose between
the soul and the body but I also had to do it quickly before they both
dissappeared.  There didn't seem to be any end to how large the
conflict could become.  

I did something that night that I knew would be forever counted
against me as my shame and if it wasn't I knew that it would be my
duty to make the case that it should: I didn't push her away.

I did something else that I knew for certain would make me someone to
be laughed at for my remaining days: I didn't stop praying.

The only way to end the conflict that seemed to be tearing me apart
was to come apart.

It seemed to me that she wanted me to love her in a way that I
couldn't love her and it also seemed that God wanted me to love Him in
a way I couldn't love and so I found myself trying to find a place in
the middle.  Love was out of my control. I could only love her to the
extent that God allowed and I could only approach God to the extent
that she allowed.  You might say that ever since I have been trying to
find a way to be part of the two sides of something getting back
together.

That is what I wrote a way back and I added a couple of quotes to the post:

There is nothing more taxing than facing a task that holds no mystery,
no fascination, no passion. --- Jonathan Lazear

I'm living so far beyond my income that we may almost be said to be
living apart.  E.E.Cummings

It was about 33 years ago that I experienced this divide and much to my amazement it seems to me that I am now finally experiencing that two sides of something getting back together.

Anyone else want to talk about their prayers, or should we just stick to Leonards

Jack

"Threnody" is scrumptious, as always, your poetry, Mat.


~ Lizzy

Tom Sakic wrote:Because in many talks I and my friends here had about that album, that was one of lines on which everybody jumped, praising it. That's why Dylan can impress me, in just two lines, hardly pronounced thru teets, he defines state of complete theory, philosophy, world of research nowadays. Anyhow, in all that talking it appeared that is probably one of best couplets in Modern Times.

Thanks, I asked because I thought you might have thought it to be a useful tool to consider in how we approach Leonard's poems?

Jack

I've never had an experience such as yours, Jack... an, at once, intensely erotic and divisive experience in the presence and midst of prayer... I've had the 'normal' sexual conflict, where I've prayed for 'strength in resisting' my passion, but this seems to have been such a clear test of your original intention. It's an amazing passage that seems to belong in a book. The lifelong journey you describe seems to be coming together for you in a way that's mysterious, as well.

Thank you for sharing this profound experience. Highly memorable and impacting.


~ Lizzy

DBCohen wrote:Tom,

about this she-angel being chained to her nakedness, the image reminded me of the picture on the back of LC’s first album, but no one commented on that. What do you think?

I thought of that picture a lot when I was looking at the CD cover of Anjani's "Blue Alert". I remembered reading somewhere Leonard saying that the picture of the chained woman he felt was a picture of his soul. I thought that things seemed to have improved for him.

Jack