eey
i don't want to even think about involment of your country in this little lousy part of the world, you know. take care of you,
tom
Spector's Defense
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
i am little oput of order right now... sorry everybody.
kush, thanks:-)
eey: many wise people said that US would came to Bosnia earlier if there was oil there
Anyway, I think that we here solve our problems mostly alone, you know. And the fact that we lived thru the war and attack by one crazy man called Slobodan Milosevic gives me an oportunity to tell you about it is, the actual war. Believe, you don't want that. About democracy, what do you think, what's that song about? Believe me, not Croatia, Charlie Manson's are out there right now. And the man which wife's was killed by Manson has a beautiful movie in cinema, The Pianist.
Also, do some of you really thinks that your country is in danger? I think that a weapon must go over Croatia and the whole Europe to get UK e.g. This is only one man looking for reason to have war and whatever he wants. I don't see what Saddam did and he did not do that last year, or year before, to be dangerous right now. Who is the enemy? From 9-11 US is looking for some kind of virtual enemy.
Anyway, thanks, dear friend, I'm going out of this thread. Look in your own garbage, then in your neighbour's, it's an old saying
kush, thanks:-)
eey: many wise people said that US would came to Bosnia earlier if there was oil there
Anyway, I think that we here solve our problems mostly alone, you know. And the fact that we lived thru the war and attack by one crazy man called Slobodan Milosevic gives me an oportunity to tell you about it is, the actual war. Believe, you don't want that. About democracy, what do you think, what's that song about? Believe me, not Croatia, Charlie Manson's are out there right now. And the man which wife's was killed by Manson has a beautiful movie in cinema, The Pianist. Also, do some of you really thinks that your country is in danger? I think that a weapon must go over Croatia and the whole Europe to get UK e.g. This is only one man looking for reason to have war and whatever he wants. I don't see what Saddam did and he did not do that last year, or year before, to be dangerous right now. Who is the enemy? From 9-11 US is looking for some kind of virtual enemy.
Anyway, thanks, dear friend, I'm going out of this thread. Look in your own garbage, then in your neighbour's, it's an old saying
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
Tom, I just want to tell you I have always had the greatest respect for you since I first came to this board, and still have great respect for you. You are a knowledgeable young man . Therefore your opinion of the US troubles me much more than anyone else's opinion.
We have had and still do have a lot of bad government policies. But that is not the people of this country.
Like I said before, right now I would not travel outside the US as an American the risk would be to great. However, I think I am safe in saying anyone from any other country in the world could travel, practice their faith, protest, whatever in this country without fear from the people, or our govenment. Have we not done some good in the world also?
We have had and still do have a lot of bad government policies. But that is not the people of this country.
Like I said before, right now I would not travel outside the US as an American the risk would be to great. However, I think I am safe in saying anyone from any other country in the world could travel, practice their faith, protest, whatever in this country without fear from the people, or our govenment. Have we not done some good in the world also?
Linda
Dear Linda,
I've decided not to say another word about this whole mess, but you sort of touched me with..."Have we not done some good in the world also?"
You see... To determine which action is good and which is bad you'd have to be a God. When you decide on a career you are going to persute, you have only one chance, and you can't be sure if your decision was right or wrong.
For example: US bombed Japan with nuclear power. Many people there still hate you for that. You whiped out two of the biggest cities in that country; millions of completelly inocent people. BUT if it wasn't the case, as A. Einstain and his contemporary scientist expected, Germany would develop the same technology. But even if that was not the case, Japan would never surrender. It's their nature. They would fight to the last man. Perhaps more people would get killed. But then again, maybe not...
HOW CAN A MAN DECIDE ON SUCH MATTERS?
The war in Irak is very much alike.
Saddam is a bad man. But he was a bad man when your govermant gave him support already.
If you attack Irak, maybe they would accept democraty... But maybe they'll elect another dictator. Democrasy is not God-given form of rule!
When first Europeans (to become Americans) came to your continent, they whiped our indians etc. Many people feel that was a bad thing to do.
I don't!
Indians were civilisation which had little chance of prosper. Was it Aztecs or Maye that died out for no reason?
We are not blaming you for all the bad things happening in the world.
In Croatia we have bad govermant too. Very bad, I fear.
But make your govermant stay out of the rest of the world. Let the rest of us collect our own garbage. And don't tell me it is not you but your govermant doing these things... You ellected and support them!
You are not GODs. Do not act that way. We had culture before you were born as a nation.
sincerily,
JURICA
I've decided not to say another word about this whole mess, but you sort of touched me with..."Have we not done some good in the world also?"
You see... To determine which action is good and which is bad you'd have to be a God. When you decide on a career you are going to persute, you have only one chance, and you can't be sure if your decision was right or wrong.
For example: US bombed Japan with nuclear power. Many people there still hate you for that. You whiped out two of the biggest cities in that country; millions of completelly inocent people. BUT if it wasn't the case, as A. Einstain and his contemporary scientist expected, Germany would develop the same technology. But even if that was not the case, Japan would never surrender. It's their nature. They would fight to the last man. Perhaps more people would get killed. But then again, maybe not...
HOW CAN A MAN DECIDE ON SUCH MATTERS?
The war in Irak is very much alike.
Saddam is a bad man. But he was a bad man when your govermant gave him support already.
If you attack Irak, maybe they would accept democraty... But maybe they'll elect another dictator. Democrasy is not God-given form of rule!
When first Europeans (to become Americans) came to your continent, they whiped our indians etc. Many people feel that was a bad thing to do.
I don't!
Indians were civilisation which had little chance of prosper. Was it Aztecs or Maye that died out for no reason?
We are not blaming you for all the bad things happening in the world.
In Croatia we have bad govermant too. Very bad, I fear.
But make your govermant stay out of the rest of the world. Let the rest of us collect our own garbage. And don't tell me it is not you but your govermant doing these things... You ellected and support them!
You are not GODs. Do not act that way. We had culture before you were born as a nation.
sincerily,
JURICA
With the greatest respect Tom I am not worried about anything falling on my head. I meant the people of Iraq. I am also 100% certain that Britian will in some way shape or form be attacked by terrorists on the back of this war.
I am not suggesting we will be bombed from the sky but we are on alert for other means of attack.
I would not presume to insult anyones homeland. America has done a lot of good in the world as has the UK. I appreciate you have had first hand knowledge of war you can therefore speak from that perspective. I also agree if oil was involved in your war outside forces would have been in the fray. This subject is highly emotive and tempers are getting a little frayed.
I am not suggesting we will be bombed from the sky but we are on alert for other means of attack.
I would not presume to insult anyones homeland. America has done a lot of good in the world as has the UK. I appreciate you have had first hand knowledge of war you can therefore speak from that perspective. I also agree if oil was involved in your war outside forces would have been in the fray. This subject is highly emotive and tempers are getting a little frayed.
There are to many rogue states in the world. USA and Bush want do something about them. Bush wants to do the moral thing. Goverments believe they are supposed to lead the people. People have said that diplomacy is what happens between wars. With a moral crusade Bush can go anywhere and sort out the other countries. The USA must know what to do to stop being attacked because they sold the weapons to the rogue countries and will know how to defend their army. Bush has the chance to finish what his dad did. Sadam is evil and must be defeated. Some Americans say they know the rest of the world owes the USA a big thank you. A smoking gun means it has already been fired. Bush wants to get his retaliation in first. Armies used to fight each other but now the USA army can attack Iraq and not be attacked by the Iraq army. The american soldiers will be more safe than the people in Iraq. The morning news has justsaid that Turkey is not happy about US army in Turkey, but Bush must use Turkey to attack Iraq from the north and the south. Bush must pay Turkey more money so that he can do it. America is very rich and so Bush will be able to buy Turkey's OK for his army. I am thankful that I do not live near Iraq and the people in America must be happy that they do not live near it as well. I am not a politician and they say they know a lot more than me. America wants to fight evil and can take the war to other people to defend itself. Bush knows it is a lucky coincidence that oil is in Iraq. I have been reading what some Americans have said in the forum and I agree with them. People should listen to what they are saying. Not all americans are stupid. They have listened to what Bush has told them.
Thanks Linda, I will never think that people are like that. It's always government, it's the same anywhere. And of course, when you count everything, I think US make more good things than bad, we're talking about one government or oner period... Thats' all what I have to say. Listen Democracy and Diamonds In The Mine No 2 (I thought I told you all in the days of Vietnam...)
Take care
Take care
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
I wanted to put some thoughts of the late Dr. Carl Sagan (formerly of Cornell Univ.) here. His writings have a universality, vitality and immense optimism for the future of man - perhaps even naively so, i don't know. Still, they have been the biggest influence in the development of my own thinking. Not really sure if it is relevant or even appropriate here but please skip it if you think it is too long or too boring.
"But for us, it's different. Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader,"every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there - on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors, so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.
Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves."
"Human history can be viewed as a slowly dawning awareness that we are members of a larger group. Initially our loyalties were to ourselves and our immediate family, next, to bands of wandering hunter-gatherers, then to tribes, small settlements, city-states, nations. We have broadened the circle of those we love. We have now organized what are modestly described as super-powers, which include groups of people from divergent ethnic and cultural backgrounds working in some sense together--surely a humanizing and character building experience. If we are to survive, our loyalties must be broadened further, to include the whole human community, the entire planet Earth. Many of those who run the nations will find this idea unpleasant. They will fear the loss of power. We will hear much about treason and disloyalty. Rich nation-states will have to share their wealth with poor ones. But the choice, as H. G. Wells once said in a different context, is clearly the universe or nothing."
"The entire evolutionary record on our planet, particularly the record contained in fossil endocasts, illustrates a progressive tendency toward intelligence. There is nothing mysterious about this: smart organisms by and large survive better and leave more offspring than stupid ones.... Once intelligent beings achieve technology and the capacity for self-destruction of their species, the selective advantage of intelligence becomes more uncertain."
"When permitted to listen to alternative opinions and engage in substantive debate, people have been known to change their minds. It can happen. For example, Hugo Black, in his youth, was a member of the Ku Klux Klan; he later became a Supreme Court justice and was one of the leaders in the historic Supreme Court decisions, partly based on the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, that affirmed the civil rights of all Americans: It was said that when he was a young man he dressed up in white robes and scared black folks; when he got older, he dressed up in black robes and scared white folks."
"But for us, it's different. Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader,"every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there - on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors, so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.
Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves."
"Human history can be viewed as a slowly dawning awareness that we are members of a larger group. Initially our loyalties were to ourselves and our immediate family, next, to bands of wandering hunter-gatherers, then to tribes, small settlements, city-states, nations. We have broadened the circle of those we love. We have now organized what are modestly described as super-powers, which include groups of people from divergent ethnic and cultural backgrounds working in some sense together--surely a humanizing and character building experience. If we are to survive, our loyalties must be broadened further, to include the whole human community, the entire planet Earth. Many of those who run the nations will find this idea unpleasant. They will fear the loss of power. We will hear much about treason and disloyalty. Rich nation-states will have to share their wealth with poor ones. But the choice, as H. G. Wells once said in a different context, is clearly the universe or nothing."
"The entire evolutionary record on our planet, particularly the record contained in fossil endocasts, illustrates a progressive tendency toward intelligence. There is nothing mysterious about this: smart organisms by and large survive better and leave more offspring than stupid ones.... Once intelligent beings achieve technology and the capacity for self-destruction of their species, the selective advantage of intelligence becomes more uncertain."
"When permitted to listen to alternative opinions and engage in substantive debate, people have been known to change their minds. It can happen. For example, Hugo Black, in his youth, was a member of the Ku Klux Klan; he later became a Supreme Court justice and was one of the leaders in the historic Supreme Court decisions, partly based on the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, that affirmed the civil rights of all Americans: It was said that when he was a young man he dressed up in white robes and scared black folks; when he got older, he dressed up in black robes and scared white folks."
Well...
One hardly knows where to begin!
It seems I am the designated "twisted evil" on the Forum by acclamation.
I would say that this is my last word on Iraq but I've noticed that those members who do, invariably return to the Forum to fire another shot across someone's bow. Usually mine.
And so to work....
One hardly knows where to begin!
It seems I am the designated "twisted evil" on the Forum by acclamation.
I would say that this is my last word on Iraq but I've noticed that those members who do, invariably return to the Forum to fire another shot across someone's bow. Usually mine.
And so to work....
On to Jurica (obviously a Croatian)
So old red Norm Chomsky impresses you with his anti-American rhetoric does he?
I counter with the radical left-wing/socialist/marxist Christopher Hitchens. Hitchens, (a severe critic of the United States and the West) calls the war on Iraq a JUST war. And he has the advantage of being less boring than Norm (but, then again, who isn't).
And as far as "boots" (jack or otherwise) go, I believe Croatia's actions in World War II against the Jews trumps anything America could possibly do in the war against Iraq.
eeey
So old red Norm Chomsky impresses you with his anti-American rhetoric does he?
I counter with the radical left-wing/socialist/marxist Christopher Hitchens. Hitchens, (a severe critic of the United States and the West) calls the war on Iraq a JUST war. And he has the advantage of being less boring than Norm (but, then again, who isn't).
And as far as "boots" (jack or otherwise) go, I believe Croatia's actions in World War II against the Jews trumps anything America could possibly do in the war against Iraq.
eeey
Dear Kush ~
It wasn't too long at all and I could hear the voice of Carl Sagan saying it. It was a very revealing odyssey of the mind as I read and imagined the realities he described. The truth of Leonard's line that "Love is the only engine of survival" resonated the whole of the time that I read. I can see and understand how it has become a construct for your thinking. It seems so simple, so obvious, doesn't it.
~ Elizabeth
It wasn't too long at all and I could hear the voice of Carl Sagan saying it. It was a very revealing odyssey of the mind as I read and imagined the realities he described. The truth of Leonard's line that "Love is the only engine of survival" resonated the whole of the time that I read. I can see and understand how it has become a construct for your thinking. It seems so simple, so obvious, doesn't it.
~ Elizabeth
I am related to elazar. Elazar is a cousin of mine.
I heard a man on the radio say that I am a 9th cousin to elazar.
I did not know this.
Then the man on the radio said I am a 9th cousin to evryone else in the world.
I think this means that I am a 9th cousin to a mother and children in America as well?
He might have said 9th, or it might have been 10th, or 11th.
But he did say I was a cousin to all of you.
I think this means that I am related to eeey as well?
I did not know we are all related.
I think this means we are all related to a mother and her child in Iraq?
I have been thinking a lot more about things lately and I think I am worried about the war. It is not as easy as I thought it was. I know Sadam is evil. His people know he kills them. His people will be frightened about the war. I am glad I do not live in Iraq at the moment.
I heard a man on the radio say that I am a 9th cousin to elazar.
I did not know this.
Then the man on the radio said I am a 9th cousin to evryone else in the world.
I think this means that I am a 9th cousin to a mother and children in America as well?
He might have said 9th, or it might have been 10th, or 11th.
But he did say I was a cousin to all of you.
I think this means that I am related to eeey as well?
I did not know we are all related.
I think this means we are all related to a mother and her child in Iraq?
I have been thinking a lot more about things lately and I think I am worried about the war. It is not as easy as I thought it was. I know Sadam is evil. His people know he kills them. His people will be frightened about the war. I am glad I do not live in Iraq at the moment.