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Yes, Oil is part of the issue here.

Particularly for the French. The French government cut a sweetheart deal with Iraq (for oil) six years ago. No wonder the French are so intent on keeping Hussein in power. It's so,...so Vichy of them.

Seeing all the protesters in Europe on "World Anger Day" made many of us Americans want to retch. You don't like us? No problem. I say just bring all the American troops home. We'll clear the field for you. Happily.

Europe can then take care of the problems in Serbia and Bosnia. Perhaps France will take the lead on that one? Germany gets the job of ensuring that the Middle East doesn't explode. And China and Japan can rein in North Korea. Oh, and don't forget Africa. I suggest you Europeans might want to straighten out the mess you made there.

And the whole lot of you can play patty-cake with Saddam.


eeey

With peace, there is no enemy.

hmm,
when people come together en mass,its an amazing mural and
im very fond of unity.i think the anti-war faction in america is to be praised for bringing people together,regardless of their rants and chants.

i think many of them have good intentions.who really wants war?if we do start a war wont all hell break loose?what will happen to our cuddly illusion that we are safe and invincable?will we have to relearn where the fallout shelters are? and the kids,learn how to crouch under a desk in school?if we love saddam,he will love us back!

to add fuel to this,lets turn our leaders into devil incarnates,and show saddam we mean him no harm.lets further the notion that america,if she goes to war,will devour the blood and oil like a sick beast.wont this pacify
saddam?

the european countrys,the leaders of the u.n.,wont admit that their attempts to clip saddams claws have failed.sadly,they dont want to join
a unit which will attempt to get the job done,before its too late.

so demonstrater,demonstrate,for that is the beauty in this country and in all democracys,the freedom of expression,and we obviosly cant take that for granted.and the crowds are beautiful,sans the propaganda.

nay-sayers,and utopian day dreamers,to deny a threat,or deam it a farse,is to err on the wrong side of safety.we are hated and wanted dead,and to realize that is very painful.to do nothing will hurt alot worse.

saddam is no idiot,that he is alive now is a feat of pure genius.he will wait to be attacked,and have much support on his side,before he acts.this does not need elaborate theorizing to conclude.as he postures and poses with his hands in the air one minute and a shoulder mounted ground to air rocket the next,he must be on the floor paralized by racks of uncontrolable laughter.

salutê
elazar

Good speech elazar....

U.S. unhappy about use of Veto by other members.
In the last 30 years guess which country used the veto more than any other, with a total of 64 times?
Do I hear the words, "Double Standards"?
I think not.
It could be argued that those who accuse others of being blind, show a lack of understanding of the others' perspective.
When we agreed with you over the earlier Gulf War we were good guys.
We are yet to be convinced about this war.
Are we now bad guys?
Are we not the same people who supported you then?
Do we not have the same families and friends as we had then?
Do we not have the same brains and reasoning powers which we had then?
You scorn our views.
Do we not have eyes?
Do we not have hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions?
We eat the same food.
We are hurt by the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as an American is?
If you prick us, do we not bleed?
If you tickle us, do we not laugh?
If you poison us, do we not die?
We are the same now as we were then.
We are the same as you.
When you throw scorn on us, you do yourself no favours.
These are my last words concerning this thread.

Freedom of speech. It is great isn't it?
You know eeey I think patty-cake will go fine as long as no one speaks out against him and then there will be no hands to do patty-cake with.

With peace there is no enemy brought to mind Isaiah 11:6
In that day the wolf and lamb will lie down together, and leopard and goats will be at peace. Calves and fat cattle will be safe among lions, and a little child shall lead them all.
Hmmm, I wonder are we there yet. It may be just around the corner.

I have been following recent developments and comments with growing concern. Has everyone forgotten so soon the lengthy conflict in South East Asia where America started manipulating events from as long ago as the 1820's, often in secret, events culminating in the Vietnam war? It is sad that thousands of U S soldiers lost their lives in this war. It is even worse that millions of innocent people of Laos and Vietnam who had never even seen a plane let alone heard of the U S A or the Soviet Union suffered and died in the name of" freedom" and "democracy". Their country had millions of tons of bombs and poisonous chemicals dropped on it every week for years. after America changed its mind about supporting their struggle against the French colonists who had oppressed them previously.

Not only were tons of bombs dropped wiping out whole villages, familly graveyards, all crops and animals, but dreadful chemicals such as agent orange, which have left some areas with soil which is still poisoned and unfit to grow anything to this day.

I travelled all over Vietnam only last year and the effects are still apparent. Hundreds of children are still being born every year with horrific deformities and country people are still being maimed and killed in Laos Vietnam and Cambodia by unexploded cluster bombs and other devices left behind from 30 years ago. As the land can no longer support traditional agriculture people are being forced to the cities where women and young children now work over 12 hours a day in sweat shop factories for a few dollars a month, lining the pockets of capitalist entrepreneurs from USA, Australia and Europe. It seems the western idea of capitalist freedom has triumphed after all, though not for the benefit of the native population.

I really don't agree with the idea that our leaders always know best. History is full of misguided leaders, all of whom feel that right is on their side. Let us not forget who was using chemicals and weapons of mass destruction in times not so long past.

I don't claim to know how to solve the present conflict, but is starting another war, which is bound to escalate, drawing in other countries and killing many innocent civilians really the answer?

Margaret,

Stop reading Marxist propaganda.

The United States was manipulating events in South-East Asia as long ago as the 1820's? Considering that most Americans were living in log cabins in 1820 it is thrilling to discover that we were actually in charge of world events.

If you want to talk manipulation, check out the history of your country. Your boys were everywhere. Subjugating the tar out of everyone. For centuries.

Cheers

eeey

On crossfire on CNN last night a commentator made a comment that I really have to question. His comment was of all the protestors, he saw none carrying a sign saying Saddam Hussein stop this war by honoring the UN resolution 1441 or Saddam comply with the inspectors What really is the protest about, it is quite obvious, it is not the people of Iraq. I am one of these poeple eeey refers to that wants to retch and there are a number of us also, the silent majority. We are not marching or protesting in the streets, we do not want war, we are not all Bush or any one else's supportor, unless they have proven themselves worthy of support.

I have never liked protesting or protest marches I feel that it only
generates hatred.

I will not comment futher on this topic either, because it just seems opposite of what LC and his music stands for. At least for me

Exactly what is he saying when he says Democracy is coming to the USA?

eeey
I feel you have completely missed the point of what I was trying to say, which was more to do with the scale of human suffering when such conflicts get out of hand. I am not interested in arguments about what has been done by "our boys", "your boys" or anybody else's "boys" in the past. We should learn from past experiences and try to find solutions by a combination of intelligence, diplomacy, and whatever other means are available.

If you look for books written by an Australian scholar and foreign correspondent Martin Stuart-Fox such as his "History of Laos" and "The Lao Kingdom of Lan Xang" he describes the power struggles between Siamese (Thai), Burmese, Annamese (Vietnamese), and Khmer (cambodian) peoples in the 18th and 19th centuries. In 1826 a ruler named Anuvong tried to establish an independant kingdom of Laos. In 1827 the Lao town of Vientiane was totally destroyed by Siamese soldiers, equipped with weapons sold to their King Rama III by U S arms traders. No doubt most Americans were living in log cabins, but others were, even then, profiting from the arms trade, and by doing so, influencing the balance of power on the other side of the world.

Emotions are running very high on this thread and it is impossible to reason for peace in the present climate. I've said my piece and I won't be commenting again.

Linda wrote:
Exactly what is he saying when he says Democracy is coming to the USA?

I'm not sure what Leonard is saying in 'Democracy', but there's another song that's much less ambiguous.

"You who build the altars now and sacrifice these children
You must not do it any more."

Quite apart from the rights and wrongs of this particular war-in-the-making, I find it infinitely depressing that humankind collectively does not seem to be able to learn from the past. We pay lip service to the notion of peaceful coexistence, then as soon as a major problem arises we find all sorts of justification for meeting force with superior force. I understand the concerns of those who feel that Saddam must be curbed before he is in a position to commit further atrocities, but I hope that this time we will find a better way than brute force.

Linmag (the other Linda)

I read a poem today and it struck me as appropriate for this string; well, it did at the time. Who will guess the author?

Learning To Play Chess

1. To wear away the time, we learn to play chess.
In thousands horses and infantry chase each other,
move quickly into action, in attack or retreat.
Talent and swift feet gives us the upper hand.

2. Eyes must look far ahead, and thoughts be deeply pondered.
Be bold and unremitting in attack.
Give the wrong command, and two chariots are rendered useless.
Come the right moment, a pawn can bring you victory.

3. The forces on both sides are equally balanced.
But victory will come to only one side.
Attack, retreat, with unerring strategy:
then you will merit the title of great commander.

I'm not in the habit of posting poetry by others; indeed, I've lost the habit of posting my own scribblings, but I offer this as a contribution.
One clue to the identity of the author...dead.
Yours, Andrew.

Someone from here wrote something that is very moving for me. It speaks its own simple truth.

We have certainly come a long way from the non-violent principles of Gandhi, MLK and Mandela to "smart bombs", "pre-emptive strikes" and "collateral damage", haven't we ?

Uh, Margaret

I did not miss your point. And I am not surprised that you do not want to discuss what "your boys" have done in the past.

Your post was not about the "scale of human suffering when such conflicts get out of hand". It was a sanctimonious five paragraph condemnation of the United States.

Now regarding the 1826-1827 Siam-Laos War: It's crazy to blame that war on Americans. Especially considering Great Britain's gunboat diplomancy in that region of the world. Have you ever heard of the Anglo-Burma War of 1826? Did you know that the reason Chao Anouvong marched on Siam (Yeah, Laos attacked Siam, not the other way around) was that Chao believed a rumour that the British were attacking Siam?

Chao Anouvong decided it would be the perfect opportunity to declare independence from Rama III. He led his armies toward Bangkok, and managed to get within three days of the Siamese capital. Siam counterattacked and crushed Chao. The Siamese then razed Vientiane. Precisely the fate that Chao intended to inflict on Bangkok.

It's silly to believe that people who had been slaughtering each other since the 11th century were driven to war by anyone, much less mythical arms dealers.

Now, would you like to discuss the Opium War?


eeey

I would just like to big it up for the Belgians and their veto, whoever would have thought it?!
I don't like the way some people seem to think in terms of either-or on this board. I personally thought the demonstration in London was brilliant because it didn't turn into a call for Intifada, as most of them seem to do around my way.
Don't imagine that the British and French (not to mention the Dutch) don't realise the consequences of our colonialism, or that we blame America for all the wrongs in the world. It is exactly this type of polarised thinking which causes these problems. What is needed is sensitivity to large and subtle differences between and within nations. Obviously, I'm not offering an answer to the problems in the Middle East as these will take decades to resolve, and it certainly won't be the western world and our 'democracy' that manages to do this.
My main argument against this war was brilliantly summed up by the German foreign minister Joschka Fischer: 'excuse me, but I'm not convinced.' And as for this war being called 'pre-emptive' (someone wrote this somewhere), so were the first and second world wars; and look how ridiculous that sounds now.