leonardcohenforum.com

Thanks Geoffrey but if she can't give the money back (most likely)
won't she have to go to jail?

You don't go to jail in the US for theft?

Dem

Dem wrote:
>Thanks Geoffrey but if she can't give the money back (most likely)
won't she have to go to jail? You don't go to jail in the US for theft?


Not if you're Caucasian.

Geoffrey wrote:Dem wrote:
>Thanks Geoffrey but if she can't give the money back (most likely)
won't she have to go to jail? You don't go to jail in the US for theft?


Not if you're Caucasian.

First. Geoffrey, Thanks for all the great thoughts about the peculiarities of this case and the causes of it, etc.

Second. If a blighted tree should bear fruit, let none say the blight was the cause of the fruit.

Third. I will take the joke of the above statement as a joke and guffaw but am somewhat upset by it because some may believe this literally, it casts general, mostly undeserved dispersions upon my country and because it doesn't pertain directly to the case at hand. Perhaps the truth that we have proportionally many more of color who live in economic slavery in the USA is even worse that what you intimate, but I don't believe the situation is quite as bad in our courts as you intimate.

Fourth. If Kelley were successfully prosecuted for criminal malfeasance or fruad -- not some civil action -- then she 'could' go to jail. However, we do not have a debtors' prison in the USA for Caucasian, African American, Mexican or Native American citizens of the USA; Mexicans, Orientals, Arabs or others who are not citizens; or even French or British. (Part of this is also a joke.)

Fifth. I am listening to a long medley of BB King, Eric Clapton and others playing the blues at its best and my mind is a bit cloudy. But if I could and you lived nearer I would invite you over for a few shots of Glen Livvet or Glenfiddish to listen with me to this wonderful music and some of Leonard's also and discuss many more interesting topics. {Of course, after I got you appropriately drunk and you drove away, I would call the local gendarme and have them jail you for being a drunk British (at least I think you are??) marauder.......... -- There is a joke in that somewhere.}

Perhaps if anyone agrees that the above "joke" casts unfair aspersions on our racist justice system, he or she hasn't listened to the Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll and the story of her alleged murderer William Zantzinger, whom I just learned from reading Wicked Messinger, a new Dylan bio, really did exist. He or she is not acquainted with the Stolen Lives Project which addresses the overwhelming proportions of blacks murdered by the police. He or she does not know the breakdown, by race, or the percentage of people in US prisons ( I forget the number, but remember it is overwhelmingly black.) No, we don't have a debtor's prison is the US and you can't get blood out of a stone, as they say, but we do mete out punishment for fraud, embezzlement, and whatever else the system of "organized vengeance called justice" wants to call it.

I still don't understand this.

How can somebosy steal 5m $ from someone
and not been prosecuted for criminal malfeasance or fruad.

If somebody has the patience to explain to me the US legal
system on this subject I'd be grateful.

Dem

All this free (and dangerous) advice and diagnoses flying around!

And there's many other people of color who's communities average in the highest income bracket in the nation. literally so. They work hard, educate their kids and prosper. If you really want to break it down by color that is

All this free (and dangerous) advice and diagnoses flying around!

yep thats why its called the internet junkway.

Contrary to the Horatio Alger story presented here, most fortunes are not built by labor, either mental or physical. They are inherited and built on the exploitation of the labor of others. I can't give you an exact source for this, maybe it was Marx.

from wikipedia...

according to the U.S. Census Indian Americans have the highest median income of any ethnic group in the U.S. ($60,093). In addition, Merrill Lynch recently revealed that there are nearly 200,000 Indian American millionaires.

Regarding Kelly Lynch going to prison:

The reason that she would not go if she doesn't pay LC back is because he won a civil lawsuit against her. It was not a "criminal" case. As was pointed out by someone a few posts ago, the USA does not have a debtors prison. Kelly was found "liable", not "guilty". May seem like a technicality, but it is not.

Only people who are found guilty in a criminal case can be sent to prison. LC and his lawyers can turn over their evidence to the appropriate district attorney, who can choose to press charges.

John K. thank you for helping me understand the US law.

If I am not wrong (but I have to check this) in Greece it would
be "by deufault" also a criminal case and she would end up in jail.

Please explain one more thing if you don't mind:

If I am let's say a bank manager and I steal $5m from my bank isn't a "criminal case"?
If I get cought and pay back the money I don't have to
go to jail?

Dem

I'm not a lawyer but I think someone has to press charges to initiate a criminal case. That would have to be Leonard or his attorney. What good would it do to put Kelley in jail? Teach her not to do it again and dissuade others from doing likewise? You would think that someone so deep into Buddhism would have had a strong idea of the workings of karma as her restrainer. Her involvemnet in "fringe religion" might also get her "off" as a psycho which would mean she spends time in a mental hospital and that's it. We'll see if Leonard believes in "an eye for an eye" or "love your enemy, do good to those that spitefully use you."

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

I don't suggest that Leonard should initiate a criminal case.

I am only trying to understand the US law on the subject
because I think in the Greek law a case like this is "by default"
also a criminal case and if that had happened here Kelley would
go to jail no matter if Leonard asked that or not.

And more generally I am trying to understand what is the
difference (if there is any) under the US law
between stealing a bank and stealing an individual.

You see I am planing "something" with Chase Manhattan!

Dem

lightning wrote:Contrary to the Horatio Alger story presented here, most fortunes are not built by labor, either mental or physical. They are inherited and built on the exploitation of the labor of others. I can't give you an exact source for this, maybe it was Marx.

Several people have written about this over the centuries. In the USA what you say above is most often the case indeed. It is a shame, IMO! However, there are a few who get very, very lucky with an idea and some perspiration, ala Bill Gates. Then we have our instant sports millionaires by the scores each year, a few lottery winners who often squander what they get, some who accidentally become land rich, some stock traders, etc. Capitalism is not a kind system anywhere in the world and does exploit the under privileged mercilessly. In the USA this exploitation is even aided by laws. It just seems that it has been successful in making the USA a military and economic powerhouse.

Yes, there are disproportionate numbers of people of color that are victimized and incarcerated in the USA but, surprise, because they are by and large less educated, very poor and commit more crimes and this is a natural result. The lower socio-economic groups within any society are usually victimized (and this does not make it correct -- it is a sad comment on Homo sapiens). Look anywhere in the world and you will see this. Although in a large part of the world this causes civil wars, international conflicts and genocidal activity instead of incarciration. I cut my social awareness teeth on the ballad of Hatti ( a very old song and case) and the perverse social conditions that I have seen with my own eyes in many parts of the world and do not agree with any of this. A true measure of a society's success is the respect and aid it gives to its most disadvantaged members. The USA is a failure when judged by this standard due to greed, avarice and adamance of its government, its officials and its affluent citizens. But I don't see any shining examples of better systems that have worked in other countries either. Perhaps if the USA pulled all of its troops home, quit selling arms, ceased providing protection for the rest of the world, stopped helping any countries rebuild or be safer and used its resources only within our country we could improve life for some of our citizens? I don't know and do not have 'the answer'. Do you?

A person does not need to file a complaint in most criminal cases because the state or federal government recognises that some law has been broken, investigates and files criminal charges. But in cases like this one it may not be apparent that a criminal act has occurred and therefor an individual would need to convince some authority to file criminal charges by submitting appropriate evidence.

Kush wrote:And there's many other people of color who's communities average in the highest income bracket in the nation. literally so. They work hard, educate their kids and prosper. If you really want to break it down by color that is

All this free (and dangerous) advice and diagnoses flying around!

yep thats why its called the internet junkway.

Those persons exist! And I am very happy that more and more of them by percentage within their racial heritage groups are being created. Those who have 'made it' are now often several generations deep. My children's dentist is a person of color coincidentally whose father was a doctor and whose grandfather was an educator. He is not the only one I know more than passingly either. But those who show the outer tatters of success aren't the only 'good' ones in any race. Most races have mostly very decent people.

But poverty kills any chance they have to acheive excellence. It is just very difficult (and getting more difficult every year) to change socio-economic status in the USA if some accident of fate does not help you. Hard honest work will not guarantee success, inspiration will not, education alone will not. And that is the shame. This lack of a chance for success is what turns many to the life styles that cause them to wind up in jail.