Sun King

[lizzytysh]

I'm a little baffled here, Tchoc......I agree with what you've said to Bee regarding Beautiful Losers; however, in my non-Internet-savvy ignorance, what constitutes an "official" site vs. an "unofficial" one? Is it an issue of Leonard's having granted permission, or his endorsing of it, or his contributing to it, or is it a Sony-granted status [hmmm......I'd think not, since I suspect they'd consider only themselves that ?], or what? Thanks.

~ Lizzy

[Tchocolatl]

Lz, in the culture of internet, there is a big difference.

The difference is like giving a true and false information in real life.

It is a lie if you prefer.

Does a lie have always such an importance?

A "white lie". No.

This kind of lie, yes.

1) The difference is like telling a lie to your audience.

2) If you consider ALSO that, in my case, this lie could be done after I have posted a friendly (G_d I hope I won't have to bring this evidence here, as I still have it - it dated of the beginning of this year) information about the wikipedia page on which he could put the address of their site. IN ANY CASE I WANTED THAT THIS INFO BE USED TO DISCLOSE FALSE INFORMATION. Therefore, I am mad about this. If it is false.

Yes, I repeat in the culture of internet this has importance to be an official or a not official website, because official websites are considered more serious, and often the only reliable source of information, because there is a lot of false informations out there. This is why, however, like the wine, this label can not be put out on a fantasy. Please, people do not disturb the order of the net by adding false information where should stand only objective and real ones. I don't have time to loose so don't have the readers of wikipedia.

OK?

This site may be official, it may be not. I don't read Croatian. I repeat. So this is why I ask the question. I would like to have an answer.

Now, I am more shocked about the lack of respect it is in my regard, to use a friendly info to put false info on the net, (if it is false) and in regard of Leonard Cohen - to put false info on a page about him on the net (if it is false) - and even to Jarkko which never claimed he maintains an official site, despite the fact that it is the most important.

He does not have to do this because his site speaks for himself throughout the years.

Now, in regard of disclosing what I think is false info on wikipédia, I said nothing until now - I just have a complete new opinion about Jurica and Tom - because they are harming themselves and their site by their own behavior. How reliable information on such a site could be? I wonder and audience will wonder also.

So if one wants to play the vierge offensée about whatever Snow can do here with Leonard Cohen's stuff, one must be all virtuous IN THE BEGINNING. It was pushing my natural good nature a little too much.

So please, I would like to know if the Croatian site is official or not?

I hope everything is clear and to your entire satisfaction.

[Tchocolatl]

Bee et al.

Have a look at this, it gives an idea of what I meant :

"This book is a masterpiece, in every sense of the word. Mr. Cohen creates an ambiance of truly desperate and lonely people, where the only person who makes any sense is completely insane."

and more there :

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookse ... 253&itm=10

Enjoy!


Take care, Love (if you permet me, of course !

[John the Shorts]

As I think I said - I don't know who wrote it I find it offensive (and the whole subject repugnant)

I think I will now retire from the forum for a while.

Wela chi, pawb

[lizzytysh]

Thanks, Tchoc. However, unfortunately, we only went a step up from sludge to mud, or mud to murky water, if you prefer. The way I've read it is that it's the "Official Croatian site," which to me means its purpose is officially for Croatian speakers, who are unable to read English, to get their "official" and "accurate" info elsewhere. That's as opposed to [the difference that a comma makes] the "Official, Croatian site" ~ which would be the "Official" site, which also happens to be written in "Croatian."

Since there already exists an Official site in English, it would seem more problematical for Jarkko to make such a claim. Imagining Tom or Jurica posting inaccurate info on their site is an idea that's off the charts for me, as they are in such close communication with Jarkko ~ and, I'm certain obtain a whole lot of info from him, or possibly some even from Leonard [directly or indirectly via Jarkko].

I guess, as I've already noted, I'm not Internet savvy enough to understand why all the alarms went off with this. There may be some other Croatian sites to come along that don't have the privied relationship with Jarkko/hence, Leonard, that Tom and Jurica do.

I also stress and repeat that I barely have a clue about the Internet ~ I do know how to get here, though .

The other thing I'm wondering about, Tchoc, is whether your complaint also extends to the other one you've listed here, as it uses the term "Official," as well ~ "* Official French Leonard Cohen site."

Thanks.

~ Lizzy

[bee]

Dear Tchoco- it was not my intention to put down LC and Beautiful Losers, even if there is plenty of porno. What was I objecting to-was Snow's repeated insistence, that LC should not regret anything, he's written, or something along these lines. Also, I am not saying, that he must or should regret. What I was saying, was-that every artist is changing and growing, things done in the past could seam most regrettable to most of the artists. They could make them feel miserable. It could work the opposite way too-one can achieve the best while young, later only repeating themselves.
But I guess, most of the times there is only a worship, coming from the fans. Without simple realization, that all hell of creativity comes and goes in cycles etc.
Love u right back

[lizzytysh]

Hi John ~

I think I will now retire from the forum for a while.

Wela chi, pawb

I've never understood [guess I never will] this kind of reasoning. Why not just retire from a particular thread?

Thanks.

~ Lizzy

[Tchocolatl]

John, whoever writes it, it was meant to be offensive, dear. Don't worry if you are. Nothing but normal. I just wonder about people who don't find some parts of the novel offensives! I wonder if they really read it, if yes, if they really understood what they have read, and if yes, if they are as crazy as the characters in BL.

Please stay. Maybe not around BL. I don't like every song of Leonard Cohen, but I don't feel the need to talk about those. May I suggest that you do the same about the books, dear?

Lz. The fooling around with comas don't change an iota about this.

Nor that if you want to join the lads in the lie (if it is) because they are friends of Jarkko.

Don't mind.

But playing vierge offensée in this situation is a little too much.

I even don't have the honour of an answer. This is real class.

[lizzytysh]

Hi Tchoco ~

It has nothing to do with alliances ~ it has to do with fairness and accusations. Have you momentarily forgotten that Tom comes and goes ~ and, of late, gone more often than being here ~ on the Forum. He's stated this fact, previously. He may easily have not even read your question, yet.

However, if you're going to accuse him of not having class because he hasn't answered you, what about you with regard to my repeated askings of you regarding what exactly constitutes "Official," when you obviously must have something specific in mind, which you suspect is being violated, and hence are so upset about it. You ~ I know for a fact ~ are here ! Yet, still no answer .

It's impossible for me to 'join' anyone in any lie. I haven't even located suitable definitions of terms, yet! Even then, when I do, I wasn't part of any development, so am, likewise, without culpability in same ~ if there has been any violation of something, to begin with ~ and what about the French site, before I forget to ask, again?

Thanks.

~ Lizzy

[Tchocolatl]

Dear Lz, I take note of your question. I thought I had answered, now I don't have the time to go into more details I feel necessary to go into if I was not clear enough the first time. Soory. I'll answer your post, though, but later. Time flies.

Bee, dearest, I understand what you mean. (btw, I too was not shocked by every porn scenes, it depends of the nature of it.) I don't know if Leonard Cohen regrets or not. Nobody knows, I think. What it is sure : Cohen does not experiment that way again. It second experimental work is DH, I think. Correct me if I am wrong. And it was received with the same feelings as BL, strangely enough.

I know also what you are talking about : an artist may be in the energy for something and years later, can not be in this energy at all, while some others are experimented it. For example, Jacques Brel said that Ne me quitte pas is a coward song. He may have been in this kind of desperate energy when he wrote it. It is a fabulous song. But when the first hellish sufferings of a separation are gone, the energy of despair is gone as well. Poor guy that had to sing it again and again for his public!!! At least Leonard Cohen when he finished the novel passed to something else,

[Tchocolatl]

this to say, Bee, that I know your style, I like to feed a thread with controversy. Shock of ideas is a good way to make the light come out of shadows!

You know, some writers described the pain, the despair, Leonard Cohen made us feel it, while reading BL, this is where the genius stands. This is why it is difficult to pin down, cause it is not just cerebral, intellectual qualities. But like some primitive who think their soul are stolen when somedody take a picture of them, some people seem not able to part the reality from fiction once they have began to read this book. Strong reactions to a stong book.



***

Lz, There is usually only one official website. For example, Leonard Cohen. Here is the official website of Leonard Cohen :

http://www.leonardcohen.com/

All the other sites non-cited on this official website are fan sites (or non-official sites).

Unless things have changed and the vitual does not reflect the reality, the information entered on wikipedia page is false.

Now what can I say to you? false information is false information and real information is real information. Serious reliable people are not suppose to spread false information on the net.

They can. But out is the serious and the reliable. The trust also.

In my eyes, the French site is in the same case, of course, it is evident, but here, I do not discuss the case of the FLCS. I ask the question to Tom. (And Jurica, if he read something else than the news.)

This said non-official sites can be very serious, reliable and even better than the official one, in regard of the fans eyes. Hopefully, though, it is also trustable, and does not pretend to be official ones when they are not. What will be the next step? It does not look very good.

I hope Leonard Cohen could have trustable people around him. Not ones who profit of his kindness to do any sorts of things...

In a forum, it is not so important to do foolish things, but on a site....In my eyes a site should be very trustable.

[bee]

It second experimental work is DH, I think. Correct me if I am wrong. And it was received with the same feelings as BL, strangely enough.

Dear Tchoco I agree with you on this one very much, and pretty much with everything else you said above and below. I am glad we don't have any differences on the subject.
Also, I agree with Lizz, that perhaps Tom has not even read your posts yet. It is my impression, that he is very well mannered person. Just be a bit patient, everything will be clear soon. Obviously there is some sort of miscommunication going on.
Love,

[Tchocolatl]

Bee, darling, i feel dizzy about both of us being so tuned. No sting, no nothing? Maybe you keep it all for Snow. Or maybe I don't feel anything anymore, (in my huge naivety)? (sorry for the too many mistakes-typo, though, i.e. passing from the singular to plurial in the same sentence and everything - and more - horrible! This is fatigue... not an excuse, but, an explanation ).

For Tom being good mannered... well, i wonder if he could be more easily influenced than I am. I wonder. Actions speak louder than words. Wait and see.

[bee]

No nothing Tchoc!! You better get some rest, has been a gloomy day over here too, I feel like sleeping as well, is raining. Well, it's not like we don't need it, no rain has been since March, I guess. But makes you sleepy, a bit lazy. You asked about my costume- I made myself as an old Mexican soap opera star, with ridicules hear dress and flashy jewelry, that sort of thing. And I won in the lottery- I had 2 full tickets (I mean the lottery at the ball)- a nice leather attache, and a beautiful linen tablecloth. I was very lucky-out of 6 tickets, 2 were full.

[tomsakic]

Tom, really. BL not being a shocking book. Did you really read it. There is some parts that are so disgusting, I did through the book at the other end of my 6 feet coach and don't touch it since the nausea was over, wich was the day after. I did this many times while reading it. Usually I am the one who read a novel from cover to cover in one shot. And I tell you I am not easely chocked. I am the anti-thesis of petite-bourgeoise.

I don't know. I read the book, and I didn't felt disgusted. But I read many such books. I don't know. It seemed like great piece of postmodern and consciouslyshocking book when I read it few years ago at colegge.

Now maybe I have to say why I am so mad at you. It is because of this official Croatian site on wikipedia:


Foreign-language sites

* Official French Leonard Cohen site.
* A Thousand Kisses Deep, Official Croatian site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Cohen

I don't know nothing about this. When you told me about Wikipedia, I added many sites, incl. all semi-official sites made for albums and hosted by Marie. Some after me edited the list of the sites I wrote in; I remember (when I was there months ago) that it was added something like "Obviously these all sites are legs of Speaking Cohen site" (I think I added it to list also.) That was last what I saw. I certainly did not ever write we are an official site.

But, for the matter of fact, our status is at least the same as the French ones. We are or were authorised by Keley Lynch, Leonard's office, Leonard himself, his assistant Kateri, Jarkko's site (our Croatian parts are mostly translations or adaptations of his sections), Michelle Findlay, and - last but not the least - Menart, an exclusive Sony BMG dealer for Croatia and Slovenia. - But we aren't the offcial site nothing more than Jarkko's. We are official in the way that Leonard supports us (and The Files are Leonard's personally authorised site as he said), but we aren't offical because "official" doesn't mean you're auhorised by the artist, but by the label, which one sites (like leonardcohen.com) are mostly dead-ends, not updated for years, and concerned only about the latest release. So I'd say we're auhorised by Croatian Sony, but we don't wanna be "official".

I won't say this was unpolite. You seem so obsessed by my (or your) status on this forum or in this community. Someone's status is validated by his/hers work. We were asked by Marie/Jarkko for being in DH.com project after we launched our site (authorised by Leonard's Office and Croatian Sony). We stayed for real. That's all. I - as Jarkko and Marie - have no thoughts about leaving, and surely - and very soon - something new from us, regarding Anjani's album and Leonard's book, will appear online.