leonardcohenforum.com

Oasis nicked the name of their album "Standing on the Shoulders of Giants" from the £2 coin. Everything that can be said has already been said everything said now is just variations of a theme.

For some reason, I don't agree with the "everything that can be said, has been said," as I watch new words be invented for newly discovered concepts or insights. At what point on the continuum of time did this 'finality' occur? Can't really defend my position with lots of examples, but it's simply the way I feel. However, this has nothing to do with the legitimacy of "standing on the shoulders of giants" or reworkings of ideas and concepts, and means of expressing them.

Back to Joni. Now I love Joni's stuff but she's getting to be a right sourpuss in her dotage. She doesn't feel she's had the recognition and attention she deserves as someone with artistic integrity, and on the whole, I agree with her. However, she thinks the best way to draw attention to this fact is to diss everyone else! She already dissed Tracy Chapman and Suzanne Vega wayback ... more recently she's dissed Rufus Wainwright and now she's taken to dissing Dylan & Cohen. Seems nobody lives up to her exacting standards these days. She reminds me of Nina Simone who dissed everyone except Dylan & Cohen ... she was part of the Holy Trinity with them! I'm surprised Joni mistakes inspiration for plagarism .... what about

"in flames our prophet witches" or "Anima rising, rising in me tonight/She's a vengeful little goodess" .... Don't Interrupt The Sorrow seems to owe a great debt to Sylvia Plath there. And you can hear echoes of Dylan in almost all her work.... Oh hum.

"If you're feeling contempt, well then you tell it.
If youre tired of the silent night, Jesus, well then you yell it"
"Judgement of the Moon and Stars (Ludvigs's Tune) Joni Mitchell

I agree completely and think no one is too good for criticism. But this dismissal of Leonard based on external influence is much too hasty.

Many moons ago Dylan wrote, "open your eyes and ears and you're influenced" .....

What you say about criticism is true, Lightning. Great quote by Dylan, Jonnie. No one is immune, beginning with our being raised by our parents.

It always seemed to me that JM`s Muse left her after "Hejira" whereas LC is obviously still in vigorous communion with his. So this little snub of hers may be sour grapes; or perhaps she still smarts over some element of their long-ago affair. (Recall that her "Rainy Night House" was about Leonard). It`s all irrelevant revisionism now anyway. Let those who still care read Joni`s memoirs.

It seems to me that when someone uses so many cultural references in a short time she tries to show off intellectually, and if, also, she dares to despise someone as Cohen turns in pedantic.

We all have our "teachers" who have influenced us. Cohen always has mentioned Lorca as the poet who marked him. We all know it, too JM.

Dylan also said: "I build my own castles with the sand of the others"

What I like so much about Leonard is that he will continue to show Joni the utmost respect.

Rainy Night House is beautiful song; he titled him "you was holy man on the radio"...
Speaking of her Muse; she just released third compilation of her back catalogue, Songs of a Prairie Girl.

What I like so much about Leonard is that he will continue to show Joni the utmost respect

- exactly.

Don't you think that the bitching about JC should end now? This is funny when it is a joke, a game, light and without real intention and short in time. Now this is beginning to look durty and ugly.

I feel like some are taking pleasure to roll themselves again and again in the pool of mud they condemn this person for rolling herself, maybe thinking that they are well hide behind the "bad girl", that they could all blame it on her, their own durt. Sorry, that stinks too much.

So, you married her off to Leonard, eh, Tchoc ? That oughta put an end to her quibbling .
[Or, did we move on to religion when I wasn't looking ?]

I dunno if Joni's muse deserted her, but it certainly sent her off in another direction... far away from folk and far away from commerciality. She's been as consistent in her way as Leonard's been in his..... I know that a lot of people don't know the more recent stuff, but to my mind Night Ride Home, Turbulent Indigo & Taming The Tiger are great albums musically and lyrically. Night Ride Home especially is awesome.... I'm sad there'll be no more from the pen of Joni, but happy for everything she's done that's gonna last and last.

Maybe she could open or Leonard on the next world Golden Geezer Folk tour.