. However, couldn't find a better joke .What's happening to this board?
Tony ~
~ Lizzy
I don't think or feel it's about this, at all, but rather the wanting of the satisfaction of authentic communication. Anyone can go to a bar and b-s all night long and then go home feeling empty, simply because nothing authentic occurred. This may not be my best way of describing the distinction I'm trying to make here, but it's not about anyone's 'importance.'Are any of us really so important that any of this matters?
~ Lizzy
Hi friends,
I generally stay away from contentious discussions. It is in my nature to avoid conflict and not something of which I am particularly proud.
I just want to tell my story of my entrance into the newsgroup. Jarkko had emailed me its existence and I went in during a very lengthy discussion of one of the members public exit from the group due to the contentiousness. I was eager to discuss some genuine Leonard topics and I posted a question formed to generate some discussion (I thought) about the nature of Leonard's ideas of repentance. No one replied to my post for several days. All the while there was an enormous number of posts concerning the exit of this public member.
Frustrated, I posted in the middle of this discussion. "Do any of you ever talk about Leonard Cohen?"
This generated another discussion about whether or not I was a troll.
I really have to laugh about this now as when we went to Brooklyn for the Wilner show, Jim Rotondo and I recalled it with great glee.
So for whatever it's worth. Take this all with a grain of salt. I hope that we all meet in person someday as it is much easier to understand good will, humor and the art of graciousness in the flesh.
Best regards to you all.
Joe
P. S. Just for clarification-I only post as myself as I'm not imaginative enough to have more than one identity.
I generally stay away from contentious discussions. It is in my nature to avoid conflict and not something of which I am particularly proud.
I just want to tell my story of my entrance into the newsgroup. Jarkko had emailed me its existence and I went in during a very lengthy discussion of one of the members public exit from the group due to the contentiousness. I was eager to discuss some genuine Leonard topics and I posted a question formed to generate some discussion (I thought) about the nature of Leonard's ideas of repentance. No one replied to my post for several days. All the while there was an enormous number of posts concerning the exit of this public member.
Frustrated, I posted in the middle of this discussion. "Do any of you ever talk about Leonard Cohen?"
This generated another discussion about whether or not I was a troll.
I really have to laugh about this now as when we went to Brooklyn for the Wilner show, Jim Rotondo and I recalled it with great glee.
So for whatever it's worth. Take this all with a grain of salt. I hope that we all meet in person someday as it is much easier to understand good will, humor and the art of graciousness in the flesh.
Best regards to you all.
Joe
P. S. Just for clarification-I only post as myself as I'm not imaginative enough to have more than one identity.
"Say a prayer for the cowboy..."
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linda_lakeside
- Posts: 3857
- Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:08 pm
- Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea..
Dear Joe ~
I appreciate what you're saying, and I've had the pleasure of meeting and working with you in person. However, if we must rely on in-person meetings for all the goodness that comes with maintaining one identity to prevail, it would become a 'club' of only people who have actually met, or will meet. There are some who ~ regardless of anything ~ will never have that opportunity. Again, it's not the 'nature of disagreement' that Tom was objecting to, but the continual promotion of new identities, in order to spew destructive vitriol and distracting, non-productive comments in general. My tack is to ignore it. To others, it's destructive and interfering.
You know I respect your opinion, and it seems the best thing would be to merely return to discussions relating to Leonard, but the areas where this occurs most is in areas not directly relating to him, yet is having a destructive impact, regardless. It leaves the possibility that people, whose 'value' we already know, or yet don't know ~ and maybe never will ~ stop coming, and never get to the point of going somewhere, where we can meet in person, and better judge all those elements of communication.
What an interesting clue to your possibly being a troll, your question regarding whether people ever talk about Leonard .
~ Elizabeth
I appreciate what you're saying, and I've had the pleasure of meeting and working with you in person. However, if we must rely on in-person meetings for all the goodness that comes with maintaining one identity to prevail, it would become a 'club' of only people who have actually met, or will meet. There are some who ~ regardless of anything ~ will never have that opportunity. Again, it's not the 'nature of disagreement' that Tom was objecting to, but the continual promotion of new identities, in order to spew destructive vitriol and distracting, non-productive comments in general. My tack is to ignore it. To others, it's destructive and interfering.
You know I respect your opinion, and it seems the best thing would be to merely return to discussions relating to Leonard, but the areas where this occurs most is in areas not directly relating to him, yet is having a destructive impact, regardless. It leaves the possibility that people, whose 'value' we already know, or yet don't know ~ and maybe never will ~ stop coming, and never get to the point of going somewhere, where we can meet in person, and better judge all those elements of communication.
What an interesting clue to your possibly being a troll, your question regarding whether people ever talk about Leonard
. ~ Elizabeth
Lizz~
I could not have said this any better. I think this is exactly what Tom's initial post was speaking of. And my stance when i posted about the MPD phenomenon.
I have lots of respect for Joe but his interpretation of the 'problem' was off the mark from what has really been happening.
Whether due to this discussion or coincidental, the destructive mpd's in the poetry forum do seem to have toned down. Time will tell if this lovely lull continues.
L
it's not the 'nature of disagreement' that Tom was objecting to, but the continual promotion of new identities, in order to spew destructive vitriol and distracting, non-productive comments in general. My tack is to ignore it. To others, it's destructive and interfering.
I could not have said this any better. I think this is exactly what Tom's initial post was speaking of. And my stance when i posted about the MPD phenomenon.
I have lots of respect for Joe but his interpretation of the 'problem' was off the mark from what has really been happening.
Whether due to this discussion or coincidental, the destructive mpd's in the poetry forum do seem to have toned down. Time will tell if this lovely lull continues.
L
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tom.d.stiller
- Posts: 1213
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:18 am
- Location: ... between the lines ...
- Contact:
Dear Elizabeth -lizzytysh wrote:I just want to clarify that [...] I wasn't saying that you were whining or lamenting, via that [implied] question. I just used that as an example, ...
I knew you weren't implying that. I just picked up the question you mentioned in order to clarify my stance. Probably I should've made this clearer in the original post. But better late than never...
Cheers
tom
PS:
"lovely lull" - a lovely phrase, Laurie. Hope is always aboard.
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Young dr. Freud
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:41 am
This has been a most enlightening thread. As an authority on this particular psychosis please allow me to make a few points.
We mustn't be shy about who it is we are talking about. The problem with the MPD psychosis on the poetry thread can be attributable to one person. I refer of course to Critic2 aka Michael. By my own count he has at least thirty egos. That is an incredible amount for a grown adult male. The problem with Michael's aliases is that they are not different enough one from the other. Their unfortunate sameness is due to the fact that they are created to either attack someone else or to defend or praise the main ego (Critic2). Or with his latest one...because he was jealous of several entries praising another man's writing ability. So he created an alias and began an attempt to write in that man's style. But without much success.
It is not easy to create another identity that is believeable. It takes real talent...or the mindset of a novelist. Most people cannot subdue their own personality long enough to create an authentic separate identity. The ego keeps breaking through. That is why it is so easy to tell when Michael is playing games. He wants to fool people but his ego keeps breaking through shouting, "Look at me....Look at me." So I look. And it ain't pretty.
YdF
We mustn't be shy about who it is we are talking about. The problem with the MPD psychosis on the poetry thread can be attributable to one person. I refer of course to Critic2 aka Michael. By my own count he has at least thirty egos. That is an incredible amount for a grown adult male. The problem with Michael's aliases is that they are not different enough one from the other. Their unfortunate sameness is due to the fact that they are created to either attack someone else or to defend or praise the main ego (Critic2). Or with his latest one...because he was jealous of several entries praising another man's writing ability. So he created an alias and began an attempt to write in that man's style. But without much success.
It is not easy to create another identity that is believeable. It takes real talent...or the mindset of a novelist. Most people cannot subdue their own personality long enough to create an authentic separate identity. The ego keeps breaking through. That is why it is so easy to tell when Michael is playing games. He wants to fool people but his ego keeps breaking through shouting, "Look at me....Look at me." So I look. And it ain't pretty.
YdF
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Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
Elisabeth, I never made the mistake of underestimate your capacity of mastering your Google Search Engine, I will not begin today. 
Anybody who may have take my joke seriously is the best exemple of the numerous misunderstandings that can lead to endless useless argumentations, and witches chasing.
For the rest, Tom, you had your answer, all the posts are pointing in the same direction : this is not a troll problem this is most an ego problem. One can even be more a troll than a troll without changing identify at all. So what are you doing with this? That does not count because you can identify for sure the poster?
As YdF said, it is very easy to identify a person by its post. As long as one it taking care of what it is said and how in the post. Now I have the feeling that you are not very good at this, at least concerning mine. I often have the feeling that you are trolling me in your answers, i.e., that your ego is wants to climb over my posts instead of "listening" what I am saying.
What can one do for the ego problem now? Should you ask.
Just keep silence for a while about the excitation of your ego. Observation of the emotions. Then most of the time, the level of being in ego is left behind and the real Self of the person has a chance to appear. It is a wiser level of being, in any case, to have the ego not to be the master of the situation.
Excuse me in advance, if I sound to teach. I do not want, I just want to answer your questionning as I do when myself was confronted with this questionning.
Anybody who may have take my joke seriously is the best exemple of the numerous misunderstandings that can lead to endless useless argumentations, and witches chasing.
For the rest, Tom, you had your answer, all the posts are pointing in the same direction : this is not a troll problem this is most an ego problem. One can even be more a troll than a troll without changing identify at all. So what are you doing with this? That does not count because you can identify for sure the poster?
As YdF said, it is very easy to identify a person by its post. As long as one it taking care of what it is said and how in the post. Now I have the feeling that you are not very good at this, at least concerning mine. I often have the feeling that you are trolling me in your answers, i.e., that your ego is wants to climb over my posts instead of "listening" what I am saying.
What can one do for the ego problem now? Should you ask.
Just keep silence for a while about the excitation of your ego. Observation of the emotions. Then most of the time, the level of being in ego is left behind and the real Self of the person has a chance to appear. It is a wiser level of being, in any case, to have the ego not to be the master of the situation.
Excuse me in advance, if I sound to teach. I do not want, I just want to answer your questionning as I do when myself was confronted with this questionning.
I didn't notice anything unusual about our forum to be so alarmed as tom was, I must say, but I never go to poets' section so I probably did miss something.
On the other hand, Joe is right, there are quite rare discussions about Leonard's work. But I hoped it's only temporary, and it's natural. When DH came out, we had so good threads that I wasn't able to follow them all.
Also, it's quite normal to talk about various things. I found it healthy. There are many other forums I visit someitmes; thery're mostly dead for weeks, and tpoics are very limited. This forum seems very wide and diverse, and it's healthy community. I know it's peculaira to say comminutity, but there are virtual communities online, and we are one, and all those dead forums aren't. And that's good I firmly believe.
Tom, or Joe, about good topic about man's work - we will have it if we done it. As everything, the job is done only if you did it. That was the case with Old Ideas. We are here, we are gathered, and we don't need to talk much when we can talk and do FAQ for instance. I learned only one thing - no one will make it if we don't make it by ourself. So, tom / Joe, there's quite things to do, if we want.
Joe, thanks for the Book of Mercy, appreciated. Great dvd also:-)
On the other hand, Joe is right, there are quite rare discussions about Leonard's work. But I hoped it's only temporary, and it's natural. When DH came out, we had so good threads that I wasn't able to follow them all.
Also, it's quite normal to talk about various things. I found it healthy. There are many other forums I visit someitmes; thery're mostly dead for weeks, and tpoics are very limited. This forum seems very wide and diverse, and it's healthy community. I know it's peculaira to say comminutity, but there are virtual communities online, and we are one, and all those dead forums aren't. And that's good I firmly believe.
Tom, or Joe, about good topic about man's work - we will have it if we done it. As everything, the job is done only if you did it. That was the case with Old Ideas. We are here, we are gathered, and we don't need to talk much when we can talk and do FAQ for instance. I learned only one thing - no one will make it if we don't make it by ourself. So, tom / Joe, there's quite things to do, if we want.
Joe, thanks for the Book of Mercy, appreciated. Great dvd also:-)
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
First, would somebody explain to me what a "troll" is (in this particular context, that is)? I'm new here, and my first post generated the same question, which discouraged me somewhat.Frustrated, I posted in the middle of this discussion. "Do any of you ever talk about Leonard Cohen?" This generated another discussion about whether or not I was a troll.
Second, I was once part of another forum, a women's forum, and ended up leaving it because I became annoyed by the in-fighting and what some of you report here as the sabotaging of the integrity of the forum through "multiple-personality" postings. In that other forum, this situation was allowed to develop because a strong clique of old-timers disallowed fresh opinions, new ideas, or anything that challenged their views. I happened to be one of the old-timers, but when some of the women began "shutting out" newcomers, I left, because the tone of the forum was souring, and we were no longer exchanging real information--we were merely bickering.
I too came here to discuss Leonard Cohen--his work, his influence, his legacy, his history. But whenever I look at the posts on this forum I feel lost in the ongoing conversations between people who already know each other and who talk about everything but Cohen.
a "troll" is a person who comes to the forum with one sole purpose: to annoy other people (he does that by using MP, insulting, acting that he's an extremist, pretending to ba a famous person, hacking somebody's username and writing in his name...)
we do, indeed, discuss Leonard's work from time to time. since you are new, a good idea is to find some analyses and esseys on his works trough the search engine. you can always resurect old threads with new ideas.
we do, indeed, discuss Leonard's work from time to time. since you are new, a good idea is to find some analyses and esseys on his works trough the search engine. you can always resurect old threads with new ideas.