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I have one question. Why is it that men, who freak out at the very thought of a prostate exam, are always so eager to accessorize women in this manner? Just wondering.

I really did not like this.

I think you have written a poor man's "Celebration". I also think you have posted it purely for a reaction.

There is no soul in this poem it is schoolboy fantasy badly written and base. Still whatever rocks your world

Hi Peter,

If I'm connecting the sequence of events correctly, I believe you posted this in response to my suggesting you share it here, after you made a reference to it in another section, and not having been able to complete it onstage. My initial reaction was, "Good G..d....what have I done!?!" At this point, I can stand back and say, "Well....look at all the discussion/commentary you have generated."

As to the poem, in a private communication with someone, I very recently commented that I preferred Kush's image of a rose tattoo. Sore Loser's comment is not excluded from my reaction in that, nor of the somehow odd use of woman as a vase/an adornment herself. Though I don't personally happen to be into tattoos myself, that image seemed more appealing, less exploitive than the one you actually had in mind. Rose petals on the bed or wherever they lay, or even in the room or environment, would've accomplished the same thing in terms of "something truly sacred and something truly lustful" as they scented the air. Roses are, at once, both gentle and intense in their scent.

I had decided to possibly just drop from the discussion, yet after having come this far with my reactions, it sure seemed less than honest to not give this one.

~Lizzytysh

I would like to comment on the remark made about being shocked out of our complacency. Granted there are a lot of things today we need to be shocked out of our complacency in; but I seriously doubt that sex in one of them. Our society is the most sexually saturated society in history. Some one in the sixties and seventies felt that the people in the “Leave it to Beaver” era should to be shocked, and found out they could make money doing it. The pornography industry is big business. Can we be shocked by sex in this day and age I hardly think so. Which leads me to another point, why is the same old argument brought out that someone like myself that found that poem disgusting, thinks sex is dirty? That I am uncomfortable using the technically correct words, ( the f--- word is the correct word for what??? not in my dictionary) that I am embarrassed at the mention of sex. That argument might have worked twenty years ago. Fact is I am intelligent, educated and well adjusted enough to make my own decision as to what I will watch, read, gaze in amazement at regardless of whether it has been called art. I don’t criticize your choice. But I have to wonder who are the complacent ones.

Hi Linda,

I'm not sure whether or not it's my earlier posting[s] you're referring to exclusively here, or a blend of mine and Kush's. I recall referring to the "technically correct terms," one of which is NOT "f...," which is in fact another slang term, used in numerous ways, including explicitly profane. The terms I was referring to were in regard to specific body parts and that one would find in a medical book.

I agree, though I never entered this particular element of the discussion, that liking/not liking this poem is not the acid test for whether one likes sex.

I agree that our society is inundated with sexuality. The distinction I make has to do with the comfort level surrounding it. Much of the media sexuality is aggressive and, from my perspective, on the unhealthy end. It doesn't stem from a healthy integration of it in our lives.

The complacency argument, that I was [or felt I was] aligning myself with, was that, though shocking to see it in print, lustful and exploratory lovemaking are both natural and healthy. Depicting that in prose and poetry can be shocking [out of the complacency that comes with not seeing these graphically addressed in poetry/prose], yet still be okay, as it gives it legitimate expression and validation. The complacency is that we expect to not see or talk about these things in honest, realistic, open ways ~ but rather only in exploitive, vulgar fashion as the media so often loves to do, or in shame-based ways. The complacency is also the way we tend to just accept ourselves as fragmented beings, i.e. that certain aspects are "there," but not to be talked about openly.

I believe that Peter's intent was to not be those negative things. Whether or not he accomplished that, is a matter of argument. Some might say he shouldn't have "gone there" to begin with; others might say it was okay to go there, but he needed to do so in better taste; others might say it's fine the way it is.

All that said, I think you made your own points very well, Linda.

~Lizzytysh

Bravo, Linda!!!

Well said.

eeey

I was never bothered by the rose. Some people talk about it all the time. It fades, it blooms. They see it in visions, they have it, they miss it. I made some small efforts to worry about the rose but they never amounted to much. I don't think you should do those things to a flower. They don't exist anyhow. The garden doesnt't exist either. Believe me, these things stand in the way.....
....These are interering dreams. Don't trouble yourself to brush them aside. You wouldn't know how to do it anyway, and they would probably install themselves on the floor near your feet in theatrical attitudes of agony and neglect (Leonard Cohen from his text 'The Rose')

>>>>>>Our society is the most sexually saturated society in history.

That is again a very strong claim....History is a long time and a big place.
I disagree with other aspects of that posting too but am loath to continue with this argument any longer.

With the technology we have for distributing material today, I stand firm on that statement. I will give an example, my grandaughter, who is eleven, was trying to find information for a project on the computer. All at once she yells "mom come here!" there were these graphic porno pictures called "teenisex" flashing across the screen in front of her. You clicked one off and another would show up. Something is wrong, when there seems to be a need to throw pornography at you.

I feel we've about saturated this topic, as well.....however, I do want to make one comment to Peter [which remains, of course, open for reply]....the rose itself was not the issue.

Due to technology, as Linda has noted, I do feel that our society happens to be unhealthily sex-saturated [a number of other factors contributing to that particular focus].....and due to technology, again, probably moreso than at other times in history. "The rich [poor] have got their.... [cameras/scripts/consciousness].... in the bedrooms of the poor [rich]."

All of this is still not to say that an erotic poem cannot be well-written and appreciated for its eroticism, particularly when integrated with spirituality. I say a bed of rose petals.....

~Lizzytysh

I believe that the adult part of a culture should be saturated with sexuality, spirit and sense of humour.
To compare my tiny text with teenpornographie og even to suggest that is an example of how the sexindustry take advantage of the week with the only purpose of giving comfort to the stronger is so utterly far out that I don't know if can say anything to it that would make sense for you.

Hi Peter,

Even though it may have appeared that way, I believe the teen/sex industry examples given by Linda were not intended to draw a parallel with your poem at all, but rather to demonstrate the saturation level in our society....that which goes well beyond the adult segment.....and has not as its intent "giving comfort" to oneself [the adults who are doing it], but rather to predatorily victimize the vulnerable child/ren in a variety of ways. It was an excellent example of how widespread, pervasive, and insidious it is and has become in our society [not to say that it's not elsewhere, as I know it is]. It's not done with healthy motives. My view: In another culture [anthropologically speaking] it might not be considered "unhealthy," yet our values, mores, and norms do not give it a background for normalization and acceptance.

When one is already to the saturation point [even perceptively, if not literally] with something, it is easy to feel "enough is enough"......period. Willingness to explore further to find the/any value in something never becomes a consideration. The door already got shut.

Was there intended humour in your poem that I missed, or were you simply including humour along with sexuality and spirit as a desired element in the lives of adults? If so, I agree. Yet, as Leonard has said regarding religion, it seems to me that we take ourselves too seriously, and not seriously enough.

I'm sure Linda can answer better for you than I have what she did or didn't mean to do with what she said. From my perspective, I feel I understood what she said and meant. Whether that's right, or whether I can explain it, if it is, is another matter.

~Lizzytysh

Peter, I am not comparing your poem to teen pornography. If you read the previous posts, I made my decision about the poem and the last two posts are in defense of myself because of the remarks made about me and my choice. And also others who felt as I did.

Lizzytsh, I don't think I have shut the door and don't even consider further exploration, but quite often it doesn't take a lot of exploration to see there is no value. If I had shut the door I probably wouldn't have discovered LC I don't except all his poetry as wonderful either, what can I say.

Hi Linda,

I had a feeling you might take issue with that. What I was thinking of when I wrote it was your statement earlier on about being very opposed to the word "f...," and with that in mind, I didn't think that other four-letter words [or explicit sexual material] would fare much, if any, better in getting any positive or sustained attention from you. In fact, quite the opposite would be most likely. That's where the shut door came in. My friend, Ron, would've shut the door after the first 3 verses.....and had I not "known" Peter, it's highly likely I would've, too. We all have our own sensibilities, and out of the necessity for some efficiency in our decision-making [we can't fully explore everything we come across], we cut out at different points. My tolerance level is higher than yours, based on different kinds of exposure, etc. However, there's still a point where I'll cut out, too. Not everything is going to get full review. I am glad to see that you've continued to return to this thread to see what people were having to say and to engage in the discussion, at least to a point.

~Lizzytysh

Personally, I have no use for this sort of drivel. But for those who find it uplifting and challenging, may I suggest you pack up the family and maybe a picnic lunch, and go spend the afternoon reading the walls of a public toilet.