Leonard Cohen and Ticketmaster

[bridger15]

Just curious if people who are upset about not getting good seats are usual ticketbuyers? Judging from the frequency of repetitive questions regarding how to buy tickets, how to enter passwords, etc., I feel I can assume the answer to that question is no.

This is my first time in the trenches battling Ticketmaster. However, with the specific instructions from Jarkko and good tips by some forum posters, I found the Pre-sales a smooth process for both San Diego and Los Angeles. Having said that, I would have preferred it resulted in better seats. That didn't happen. The ones I did get are "satisfactory" and so I am happy - I will get to see the Maestro twice.

[Reno]

Just curious if people who are upset about not getting good seats are usual ticketbuyers? Judging from the frequency of repetitive questions regarding how to buy tickets, how to enter passwords, etc., I feel I can assume the answer to that question is no.

That's not a correct assumption, I think. I, for example, have bought tickets for concerts going back to the halcyon 60s. Although I've tended to shy away from big venues, The Ticketmaster can't be avoided. What caught me by surprise were so-called presales. How many restricted sales before the public sales were there for Leonard Cohen tickets? Six? How long has this type of multi-tiered ticket sales been available? I saw Tom Waits in Chicago a couple of years ago, and I don't recall having this sort of ticket scheme for his appearance here.

I realize that many of you probably think, duh, this guy deserves to be skunked for tickets, since he didn't know this basic fact of concert-going life. However, this forum seems able to grant Leonard Cohen considerable slack for not knowing or not caring about the dirty business of the promoters because he devotes his attention to his work. That's fair enough, but should folks who care about Cohen's music be expected to learn about the ever-changing nuances of ticket-buying rather than focus on their own work, whatever that may be? When there is an announcement that tickets will go on sale at a specific time and date, why should further investigation about "presales" be needed? I know that I shouldn't trust The Ticketmaster, but I wouldn't have expected that there was a need to question when tickets actually go on sale.

By the way, I have reservations about having become someone who has invaded your forum in order to buy tickets for a musician I've dug for decades, and I apologize for having done so. I also wish that there were no presales for any tickets because it simply isn't fair, but then I doubt that jarkko is motivated by anything other than altruism for seeing that followers of Cohen have the chance to buy tickets. That's great, but I also feel a bit dirty for engaging with a presale system that is not terribly fair to all...and that's meant as no criticism of what jarkoo has done or of any you who bought the tickets. Hell, I bought presale tickets and I'm deeply grateful for having the chance to do so, even while I know that my ability to do so likely caused folks who don't know about the presale system to have lost out on a chance to see Cohen.

In any case, I regret having excoriated Cohen on this forum with the improbable claim that he was directly involved in the ticket fiasco. That's was a mistake, and I should have known better than to rant. What I think is a more reasonable claim, though, is that the context for these concerts now has a thread of ugliness in it--that of the slimy business schemes of promoters and the high price of tickets that exclude deserving folks from attending these concerts.

[denalynn2001]

I would say there's no question I'm one of those people who has minimal experience trying to attend a show with this level of demand. I've never bought tickets for The Rolling Stones, Radiohead, or any number of artists that were named in this context, and I've also never thought of Leonard Cohen as belonging in the same category of demand. I think it's great for him that these concerts have been so successful, but it does hurt my heart that there's so much speculation going on, regardless of whether or not this is the norm. I expect it for Britney Spears and Madonna, not Leonard Cohen.

It's hard for people who get shut out specifically because it's not a damn hockey game and it's a rare and unexpected opportunity, so people have strong emotions about it. As for folks "invading" the forum to get tickets, I would argue there's no one right reason to participate in a fan forum. Inevitably a new influx of people and a tour like this will cause disruptions to the status quo. In no way does that negate the genuine investment of those folks who have opted to enjoy LC's work without choosing to join the forum before this.

[hmur4356]

Forgive me for asking, but are people complaining because they actually were able to get tickets? The process may suck for some of us older folks and the more technically challenged, but it seems to me that it beats the hell out of waiting in line all night outside of Scotti's Record Shop! That option is still available to folks, as Ticketmaster still sells tickets in these type of outlets. I can't understand how people can complain that they are actually getting tickets though. Sure we'd all like to be in the front row with comps, if possible, but jees.

[denalynn2001]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm certainly not complaining that I got tickets. I'm not even complaining about the price, as I gladly passed up seats in the pit that were for someone who could afford them, not me. My big issue is that lots of people who would like to see the show may miss out on getting tickets due to the fact that speculation is so profitable. That Ticketmaster benefits from this speculation via their TicketsNow outlet is even worse.

My main issue when I arrived here with steam coming out of my ears was that there were no tickets available within 5 minutes of the start of the public sale for Chicago and I attributed that largely to the speculation. A second show was added, which allows a lot more fans to go, and I am grateful to be one of them.

[micropup2008]

On another page someone complained that after the April 13 Oakland show sold out, they decided to have a second show on the 14th, and that before the second show was even announced, they were selling tickets at inflated prices to the 14th show on CraigsList. I followed the link and it led right to TicketsNow. So how could they be selling tickets to a show that was just announced. Taking a look at TicketsNow's policies, it states that they don't do this. But they did do it. I wrote them a complaint and got a bullshit answer that prior to February this practice was allowed, but not allowed since February. However, this is March and they are still doing it. I wrote a complaint to the California Attorney Generals office and wonder if I will ever hear back from them. I suggest you all write to the Attorney General as well; perhaps then there might be some action taken.

[honeyrose]

I think people are confusing a number of issues here.

For a popular artists tour there will always be a off market demand for tickets from those organisations offering a special deal to their members - like Amex etc - on concert tix. These third parties need their own allocation which takes some tickets out of general distribution. Then some venues do have season ticket holders as well. The promoter, AEG here, will also have an allocation for resale on privileged terms, depending on their negotiations with the theatre and ticket agencies selling the shows. Then there are the firms which run special scalping software to buy up blocks of tickets when they are announced. So for a sold out tour there are competing demands for special allocations which take tickets off general sale before they are even released.

Then there is Ticketmaster. Is Ticketmaster a rip-off merchant? Yes, clearly with all the extra charges it imposes over and above the face value of the ticket. Do they care? No. Pearl Jam took them on at a time when they were one of the top selling acts and it went to the courts in the US and they found in favour of Ticketmaster - reasons are unclear except that Ticketmaster has a very powerful lobby in the US, but a contributing reason why they get away with it is that as an agency, and not the actual promoter or theatre owner, they fall through various loopholes in the legislation.

So Ticketmaster does not give a stuff about fans, only about making money and looks for ever more ways to do this.

Over the years Ticketmaster has done deals with venues to have exclusive handling rights to sell tickets at their venues, and with the linkup with Live Nation, makes it the only game in town in many places. This has given it a stranglehold on most of the larger venues. Recently TM has got into hospitality packages and, also being annoyed at being scalped by software specialists, it has indeed moved into the secondary market itself and is scalping its own punters by shunting top end tickets for sell out shows, into the hospitality packages or into its own secondary market.The only place where there are some legal restraints on Ticketmaster and its methods seems to be in some Canadian states who have legislation against scalping.

The temptation must be for the artists management, if TM is going to do this anyway, why not negotiate a percentage of the secondary revenue? It was stated in the press that Madonna was getting a percentage of TMs secondary market sales, as part of the deal for her recent tour. The question is does the artist know about this? And can they stop it? To some extent yes. Kylie Mingoue recently insisted on an auction for her tickets but of course there is still a perception that TM can manipulate that as well.

I imagine even if Leonard's management did not start out to price the tickets out of reach of fans, they will have been persuaded into some of these deals by AEG and Ticketmaster simply because it offers more money at the end of the day. So I would guess that his management has a deal with AEG to get a percentage of the extra charges that Ticketmaster add by various means - and that Leonard will see some of the proceeds of these in his share of the take.

Does Leonard know?. I should think so although he may choose not to address it. Some artists chose to turn a blind eye to the arrangements so they can claim to the fans they don't know how their tickets are sold, but you can be pretty sure that they are getting a share of the extra profit at the end of the day.

You can say Leonard deserves it, that he is not directly involved, but what you cannot say is that all the extra money is going to Ticketmaster and the scalpers, I guarantee some will be going to Leonard via the contract agreed with his management.

[bridger15]

...The promoter, AEG here, will also have an allocation for resale on privileged terms, depending on their negotiations with the theatre and ticket agencies selling the shows...

My compliments to "honeyrose" for a very well written description of the process.
The current ticket selling environment was explained to me recently by someone in the "biz" who described it the same way. After that chat, I concluded:

1/ LC Forum Fans are very fortunate, that AEG negotiated an allocation of tickets for us on Presales.

2/ I was very lucky to get second price seats for two concerts at regular prices.

[honeyrose]

Just to add, there are now four class actions being brought against Ticketmaster in Canada - where ticket scalping is illegal in most states.

Also following the row with Bruce Springsteen over TM shunting buyers for his tour to TicketsNow their secondary market site, this news item appeared on FoxNews in early February 2009:

"Sen. Charles Schumer wants to show Ticketmaster who's boss, after Bruce Springsteen fans complained they were ripped off by the ticket seller's Web site. Fans reported that when they tried to buy tickets for Springsteen's upcoming tour last Monday, they were redirected from the Ticketmaster site to a subsidiary, TicketsNow, which specializes in reselling tickets above face value. Schumer, D-N.Y., on Sunday joined Rep. Bill Pascrell, D-N.J., in calling for the Federal Trade Commission to investigate.

"It was a classic bait-and-switch," Schumer said. "'We don't have the tickets at $75, but maybe this site has them at $200.' Guess what? The same people owned both sites." Ticketmaster CEO Irving Azoff apologized for the company's actions, saying it would no longer direct fans to the subsidiary. But in a press conference laced with Boss references, Schumer accused Ticketmaster of shutting out Springsteen's loyal fans. "Fans who thought they were going to the promised land of regular-priced tickets, found themselves in the badlands of ticket scalpers."

Springsteen also published a letter to fans on his Web site condemning the practice of redirecting buyers to TicketsNow. "The abuse of our fans and our trust by Ticketmaster has made us as furious as it has made many of you. We will continue to do our utmost now and in the future to make sure that these practices are permanently curtailed on our tours," the letter said."

TicketMaster posted this apology on Springsteen's blog:

"Fans are confused and angry, which is the opposite of what we hoped to accomplish. We sincerely apologize to Bruce, his organization and, above all, his fans.

We recognize that we need to change our course. We have committed to Bruce and state publicly here that we have taken down all links for Bruce’s shows directing fans from Ticketmaster to TicketsNow. This redirection only occurred as a choice when we could not satisfy fans’ specific search request for primary ticket inventory, but to make sure there is no misunderstanding in the future, we also publicly state that we will never again link to TicketsNow in a manner that can possibly create any confusion during a high-demand on-sale. Specifically, we will not present an option to go to TicketsNow from Ticketmaster without the consent of the artist and the venue, both of whom work together to bring the joy of live entertainment to millions of fans.

If any fans inadvertently purchased tickets in the resale marketplace believing in error they were purchasing from the initial on-sale, we will refund the difference between the actual purchase price and the face price of the ticket. (Please don’t abuse this good faith gesture - we did not give brokers any preferential access to tickets.)"

So if anyone out there has found themselves automatically redirected to TicketsNow for Leonard's North American tickets, it must be with the blessing of the man himself or at least with that of his management who should have consulted him about it.

[mirka]

So if anyone out there has found themselves automatically redirected to TicketsNow for Leonard's North American tickets, it must be with the blessing of the man himself or at least with that of his management who should have consulted him about it.

This is what I've pointed out on this Forum on several occasions: Bruce Springsteen published letter to his fans condemning TicketMaster's, so far we didn't hear from LC or his management.

mirka
--

[denalynn2001]

I have a problem with Ticketmaster owning and operating TicketsNow in the first place. By providing this marketplace, they are able to profit from absurdly inflated prices whilst throwing up their hands and denying responsibility.

In this case, they may very well not be doing anything legally wrong but I think they are doing something ethically and morally wrong. Does this surprise me? Hellz, no!!

D

[alucasny]

subrosa, I had the same experience, re logging on on the dot of 10 for the supposed "presale" on Saturday, and then again this morning for the public sale. What a sham -- I really can't believe that all of Radio City, whether allocated to Amex, fan club, or other pre-sale, or to the rest of us mere mortals, was sold out within two minutes, or that two adjacent seats couldn't be found among all those not yet sold. (We're not talking "inadequate" seats, we're talking no seats available at all!) I've been going to concerts since the '60s, but this was the most sickening rip-off yet. If Leonard Cohen is, in fact, profiting from Ticketmaster's piggishness then it's a real betrayal of all of us who've grown up with/to him over all these years and, more importantly, to the ethics and basic tenets of both halves of his spiritual practice; if not, he should use some of his eloquence to attack this scam (a la Springsteen) and join with other ethical artists in developing alternate marketing pathways.

[micropup2008]

The apology from Ticketmaster is baloney. As I stated previously, with respect to the 4/14 Oakland concert, even though they may not have redirected people to Ticketsnow, they were certainly selling tickets on Ticketsnow (via Craigslist) prior to this second concert even having been announced to the public, or the fan club for that matter.

Just to add, there are now four class actions being brought against Ticketmaster in Canada - where ticket scalping is illegal in most states.

Also following the row with Bruce Springsteen over TM shunting buyers for his tour to TicketsNow their secondary market site, this news item appeared on FoxNews in early February 2009:

"Sen. Charles Schumer wants to show Ticketmaster who's boss, after Bruce Springsteen fans complained they were ripped off by the ticket seller's Web site. Fans reported that when they tried to buy tickets for Springsteen's upcoming tour last Monday, they were redirected from the Ticketmaster site to a subsidiary, TicketsNow, which specializes in reselling tickets above face value. Schumer, D-N.Y., on Sunday joined Rep. Bill Pascrell, D-N.J., in calling for the Federal Trade Commission to investigate.

"It was a classic bait-and-switch," Schumer said. "'We don't have the tickets at $75, but maybe this site has them at $200.' Guess what? The same people owned both sites." Ticketmaster CEO Irving Azoff apologized for the company's actions, saying it would no longer direct fans to the subsidiary. But in a press conference laced with Boss references, Schumer accused Ticketmaster of shutting out Springsteen's loyal fans. "Fans who thought they were going to the promised land of regular-priced tickets, found themselves in the badlands of ticket scalpers."

Springsteen also published a letter to fans on his Web site condemning the practice of redirecting buyers to TicketsNow. "The abuse of our fans and our trust by Ticketmaster has made us as furious as it has made many of you. We will continue to do our utmost now and in the future to make sure that these practices are permanently curtailed on our tours," the letter said."

TicketMaster posted this apology on Springsteen's blog:

"Fans are confused and angry, which is the opposite of what we hoped to accomplish. We sincerely apologize to Bruce, his organization and, above all, his fans.

We recognize that we need to change our course. We have committed to Bruce and state publicly here that we have taken down all links for Bruce’s shows directing fans from Ticketmaster to TicketsNow. This redirection only occurred as a choice when we could not satisfy fans’ specific search request for primary ticket inventory, but to make sure there is no misunderstanding in the future, we also publicly state that we will never again link to TicketsNow in a manner that can possibly create any confusion during a high-demand on-sale. Specifically, we will not present an option to go to TicketsNow from Ticketmaster without the consent of the artist and the venue, both of whom work together to bring the joy of live entertainment to millions of fans.

If any fans inadvertently purchased tickets in the resale marketplace believing in error they were purchasing from the initial on-sale, we will refund the difference between the actual purchase price and the face price of the ticket. (Please don’t abuse this good faith gesture - we did not give brokers any preferential access to tickets.)"

So if anyone out there has found themselves automatically redirected to TicketsNow for Leonard's North American tickets, it must be with the blessing of the man himself or at least with that of his management who should have consulted him about it.

[AmeliaBedelia]

What is the difference between Ticketmaster's Marketplace and Ticketsnow?

[A Brick in the Wall]

Just curious if people who are upset about not getting good seats are usual ticketbuyers? Judging from the frequency of repetitive questions regarding how to buy tickets, how to enter passwords, etc., I feel I can assume the answer to that question is no.

That's not a correct assumption, I think. I, for example, have bought tickets for concerts going back to the halcyon 60s. Although I've tended to shy away from big venues, The Ticketmaster can't be avoided. What caught me by surprise were so-called presales. How many restricted sales before the public sales were there for Leonard Cohen tickets? Six? How long has this type of multi-tiered ticket sales been available? I saw Tom Waits in Chicago a couple of years ago, and I don't recall having this sort of ticket scheme for his appearance here.

I realize that many of you probably think, duh, this guy deserves to be skunked for tickets, since he didn't know this basic fact of concert-going life. However, this forum seems able to grant Leonard Cohen considerable slack for not knowing or not caring about the dirty business of the promoters because he devotes his attention to his work. That's fair enough, but should folks who care about Cohen's music be expected to learn about the ever-changing nuances of ticket-buying rather than focus on their own work, whatever that may be? When there is an announcement that tickets will go on sale at a specific time and date, why should further investigation about "presales" be needed? I know that I shouldn't trust The Ticketmaster, but I wouldn't have expected that there was a need to question when tickets actually go on sale.

By the way, I have reservations about having become someone who has invaded your forum in order to buy tickets for a musician I've dug for decades, and I apologize for having done so. I also wish that there were no presales for any tickets because it simply isn't fair, but then I doubt that jarkko is motivated by anything other than altruism for seeing that followers of Cohen have the chance to buy tickets. That's great, but I also feel a bit dirty for engaging with a presale system that is not terribly fair to all...and that's meant as no criticism of what jarkoo has done or of any you who bought the tickets. Hell, I bought presale tickets and I'm deeply grateful for having the chance to do so, even while I know that my ability to do so likely caused folks who don't know about the presale system to have lost out on a chance to see Cohen.

In any case, I regret having excoriated Cohen on this forum with the improbable claim that he was directly involved in the ticket fiasco. That's was a mistake, and I should have known better than to rant. What I think is a more reasonable claim, though, is that the context for these concerts now has a thread of ugliness in it--that of the slimy business schemes of promoters and the high price of tickets that exclude deserving folks from attending these concerts.

Waits had a pre-sale for fans on that tour --- that's how I saw him.