AAAAAARRRRRUUUUGH vern.silver,
I am happy you do not believe in the Theory. I asked the question of Byron and you because you are British. I wanted to know is this what the British think. And because no one would say No! This is not true. Only the eeey.
Thank you for the reply.
Godzilla
hell bent on war
AAAAAARRRRRRUUUUUGH Lizzytysh,
Thank you for the reply to me. You have said many things about President Bush in your posts. I do not see it that way. If I were American I would vote for him with or without pencil.
The jobs you speak of, are they only for Americans? May the United States employ people from other countries, Japan?
Thank you for the reply to me. You have said many things about President Bush in your posts. I do not see it that way. If I were American I would vote for him with or without pencil.
The jobs you speak of, are they only for Americans? May the United States employ people from other countries, Japan?-
tom.d.stiller
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TIMEOUT
Linda,
I have thought a lot about your last posting and I agree. Somehow this thread is getting out of control. And I fear I might have to take some part of the blame. Though I'm not that young anymore, I sometimes still feel inclined to rush in like a young dog; my wording is in many cases harsher than necessary; though I never intended to insult anybody, reviewing some of my previous postings, I could understand that some might have felt hurt.
I had a long conversation with Elazar the other day, and from what has been said before in this thread, you will know that he and I disagree on a lot of details where this war is concerned, but after we had discussed for a while, I distinctly felt we were converging at last to a considerable degree of mutual understanding. Finally, I daresay, we agreed on some basics about this war - and some other issues - we thought we could share. (This describes my own impression, I won't speak for you, Elazar, but maybe you will describe our conversation from your point of view sometime.)
Exactly this convergence on at least some basics, or at least the readiness for it, is somehow getting lost. I myself tried to replace this disposition with a rather abstract willingness to accept our disagreements as what they are, while all the while trying to convice those who disagree with me that they are wrong. Added to all this a wording that must have insulted some... (To give an example: talking about President Bush we needn't agree, but I don't have to call him names, or loudly voice the doubts I have, or make rather poor jokes about him... After all, there are some, including you, Linda, who are on his side, and it might unnecessarily hurt feelings.)
All this, of course, doesn't mean that I intend to "back down". On the contrary, I will try to discuss some of the issues at hand more thoroughly than before. But I seriously intend to venture my position rather in the way of a Gentleman, who, as defined by the late Cardinal Newman, "is someone who never inflicts pain".
This isn't a trick, Linda, nor is it in any way planned to seem somewhat maudlin. We really should try not to create a garbage bin out of what could be a wonderful place to come to (and, despite some lapses, still is.)
Tom
PS: And, Nan, I hope things are really settled. Where are you, Coco? Did we scare you off? Hopefully not. And, Linda, I will reply to your last posting maybe once again, and that response will be more in the line of the discussed topics, but this isn't the right posting to do so.
I have thought a lot about your last posting and I agree. Somehow this thread is getting out of control. And I fear I might have to take some part of the blame. Though I'm not that young anymore, I sometimes still feel inclined to rush in like a young dog; my wording is in many cases harsher than necessary; though I never intended to insult anybody, reviewing some of my previous postings, I could understand that some might have felt hurt.
I had a long conversation with Elazar the other day, and from what has been said before in this thread, you will know that he and I disagree on a lot of details where this war is concerned, but after we had discussed for a while, I distinctly felt we were converging at last to a considerable degree of mutual understanding. Finally, I daresay, we agreed on some basics about this war - and some other issues - we thought we could share. (This describes my own impression, I won't speak for you, Elazar, but maybe you will describe our conversation from your point of view sometime.)
Exactly this convergence on at least some basics, or at least the readiness for it, is somehow getting lost. I myself tried to replace this disposition with a rather abstract willingness to accept our disagreements as what they are, while all the while trying to convice those who disagree with me that they are wrong. Added to all this a wording that must have insulted some... (To give an example: talking about President Bush we needn't agree, but I don't have to call him names, or loudly voice the doubts I have, or make rather poor jokes about him... After all, there are some, including you, Linda, who are on his side, and it might unnecessarily hurt feelings.)
All this, of course, doesn't mean that I intend to "back down". On the contrary, I will try to discuss some of the issues at hand more thoroughly than before. But I seriously intend to venture my position rather in the way of a Gentleman, who, as defined by the late Cardinal Newman, "is someone who never inflicts pain".
This isn't a trick, Linda, nor is it in any way planned to seem somewhat maudlin. We really should try not to create a garbage bin out of what could be a wonderful place to come to (and, despite some lapses, still is.)
Tom
PS: And, Nan, I hope things are really settled. Where are you, Coco? Did we scare you off? Hopefully not. And, Linda, I will reply to your last posting maybe once again, and that response will be more in the line of the discussed topics, but this isn't the right posting to do so.
-
Byron
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Godzillla, there is no proof to even take Mr Bush to a court of law in any country, whatever their particular judicial system.
Whether I believe he is guilty or not is therefore irrelevant until you are chosen to join a jury in a court of law and see and hear all validated and positive evidence.
Should you join the jury, I as a British citizen, would hope that no media frenzy surrounded your deliberations, which must be taken and discussed between you and your fellow jury members on our behalf.
So, to be brief. There is no evidence. Where evidence to be produced, from whatever quarter, then I will leave it to you to study that evidence on my behalf. Until such a time I do not believe he was involved.
Linda, I know nobody at all who took any delight in those dreadful pictures. I need say no more on that matter.
I am still grieving for the British troops and airmen who died in situations which were not as a result of 'combat' with the enemy. (A gentle British understatement, which those in my country will understand with a particular pain in their hearts and memories of times past)
I am proud of our service men and women. No greater love is there than when man lays down his life for his fellow man. I grieve for all the deceased and pray that my grieving will not increase. I fear that we all will continue to face terrible pain in the weeks ahead.
I note that to the east, Iranian troops are massing at the border. (British troops are reported to have come under machine gun fire from the Iranian army)
I note that to the north, Turkish troops are massing at the border. (Kurdish militia are becoming ever more agitated as a result of this, because of their historical experiences under the 'control' of Turkish forces)
I take no delight in mentioning these two unrelated matters, which may become completely related.
A brief look at the unfolding events of the early days of The First World War in 1914, will be chillingly reminiscent of these current international activities.
Any war does not take place in a vacuum, but it does 'suck in' far more than most people had originally believed, expected, were told and imagined.
Europeans have learned very hard lessons indeed, (and in fact) about warfare and know that one has to take 'the long view' when considering international relations. Experience has been learned at a terrible price in many cases.
We know that experience is achieved in our daily lives as we get older, and one friend of mine, said that the people who have the most experience are those who have had the longest time to make more mistakes than the younger ones.
I know that this particular argument cuts both ways about how to deal with dictators, but the argument does not apply exclusively to either side of that argument.
When 'neighbouring' countries of a conflict start to beat their 'war drums' we should all have a serious look at 'the long view.'
I trust that our leaders are weighing everything in the balance as this war continues. We were told it would be quick. We are now being told it won't.
I am fully behind our troops and wish them G-d speed and a quick victory.
G-d bless.
Whether I believe he is guilty or not is therefore irrelevant until you are chosen to join a jury in a court of law and see and hear all validated and positive evidence.
Should you join the jury, I as a British citizen, would hope that no media frenzy surrounded your deliberations, which must be taken and discussed between you and your fellow jury members on our behalf.
So, to be brief. There is no evidence. Where evidence to be produced, from whatever quarter, then I will leave it to you to study that evidence on my behalf. Until such a time I do not believe he was involved.
Linda, I know nobody at all who took any delight in those dreadful pictures. I need say no more on that matter.
I am still grieving for the British troops and airmen who died in situations which were not as a result of 'combat' with the enemy. (A gentle British understatement, which those in my country will understand with a particular pain in their hearts and memories of times past)
I am proud of our service men and women. No greater love is there than when man lays down his life for his fellow man. I grieve for all the deceased and pray that my grieving will not increase. I fear that we all will continue to face terrible pain in the weeks ahead.
I note that to the east, Iranian troops are massing at the border. (British troops are reported to have come under machine gun fire from the Iranian army)
I note that to the north, Turkish troops are massing at the border. (Kurdish militia are becoming ever more agitated as a result of this, because of their historical experiences under the 'control' of Turkish forces)
I take no delight in mentioning these two unrelated matters, which may become completely related.
A brief look at the unfolding events of the early days of The First World War in 1914, will be chillingly reminiscent of these current international activities.
Any war does not take place in a vacuum, but it does 'suck in' far more than most people had originally believed, expected, were told and imagined.
Europeans have learned very hard lessons indeed, (and in fact) about warfare and know that one has to take 'the long view' when considering international relations. Experience has been learned at a terrible price in many cases.
We know that experience is achieved in our daily lives as we get older, and one friend of mine, said that the people who have the most experience are those who have had the longest time to make more mistakes than the younger ones.
I know that this particular argument cuts both ways about how to deal with dictators, but the argument does not apply exclusively to either side of that argument.
When 'neighbouring' countries of a conflict start to beat their 'war drums' we should all have a serious look at 'the long view.'
I trust that our leaders are weighing everything in the balance as this war continues. We were told it would be quick. We are now being told it won't.
I am fully behind our troops and wish them G-d speed and a quick victory.
G-d bless.
-
tom.d.stiller
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Linda, Byron
Needs it saying that I did not take delight in seeing the POW's on TV? I hope not.
Needs it saying that part of me dies and hardens with every single victim of the casualties, be it a soldier or a civilian, be it by "friendly fire", "collateral damage" (I hate these words, they are so euphemistic) or regular fights, be it by accident? I hope not.
Godzilla, Byron
in dubio pro reo. There is no proof, and though one might doubt innocence, it should still be a clear "not guilty".
Byron,
I share the deep anxiety that comes from your reminiscences of 1914. Wars may leave a vacuum, but they never take place in one. Always there are things that happen besides those that had been planned, intended, foreseen, propagated, imagined. Side-effects, results in the second and third degree, back-coupled, reflexive, constituting more often than not a nexus beyond planning, beyond control. (Her one part of my opposition against this war has it's roots.)
"In the long run," John Maynard Keynes once said about economic theories, but it might as well apply to the strategies followed by "our leaders", "in the long run they might be right; but in the long run we're all dead."
I don't want to finish on this sombre thought, though.
Still there is hope, especially if this war will be a short one, and not too many banners will be planned in the backyards of Araby.
Those who believe in G-d may pray. I lost whatever faith I had a couple of wars and massacres earlier.
Tom
Needs it saying that I did not take delight in seeing the POW's on TV? I hope not.
Needs it saying that part of me dies and hardens with every single victim of the casualties, be it a soldier or a civilian, be it by "friendly fire", "collateral damage" (I hate these words, they are so euphemistic) or regular fights, be it by accident? I hope not.
Godzilla, Byron
in dubio pro reo. There is no proof, and though one might doubt innocence, it should still be a clear "not guilty".
Byron,
I share the deep anxiety that comes from your reminiscences of 1914. Wars may leave a vacuum, but they never take place in one. Always there are things that happen besides those that had been planned, intended, foreseen, propagated, imagined. Side-effects, results in the second and third degree, back-coupled, reflexive, constituting more often than not a nexus beyond planning, beyond control. (Her one part of my opposition against this war has it's roots.)
"In the long run," John Maynard Keynes once said about economic theories, but it might as well apply to the strategies followed by "our leaders", "in the long run they might be right; but in the long run we're all dead."
I don't want to finish on this sombre thought, though.
Still there is hope, especially if this war will be a short one, and not too many banners will be planned in the backyards of Araby.
Those who believe in G-d may pray. I lost whatever faith I had a couple of wars and massacres earlier.
Tom
-
Byron
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- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
Tom, I understand what you say about losing your faith.
We are all going through personal turmoil at the moment and to each one of us, our humanity is being seriously questioned. I think I got that bit right?
What I'm trying to do in my own personal way is to pray that there is an even bigger 'long view' which none of us is privy to, except by trusting that when our time is up, we will finally see what our existence has been about.
Some would call that 'wishful thinking,' while others would call it 'hope out of despair' and I know that whatever 'label' we put on it, we are not in control of our time here on Earth.
I think I envy those who have true faith and who accept their place in the scheme of things.
I see that you have lost all possibility in any such scheme and I understand why.
The real horrors of war are about to unfold as the two parties engage head to head.
It will not be pretty. (more British understatement for those reading from afar)
Best regards from Byron.
We are all going through personal turmoil at the moment and to each one of us, our humanity is being seriously questioned. I think I got that bit right?
What I'm trying to do in my own personal way is to pray that there is an even bigger 'long view' which none of us is privy to, except by trusting that when our time is up, we will finally see what our existence has been about.
Some would call that 'wishful thinking,' while others would call it 'hope out of despair' and I know that whatever 'label' we put on it, we are not in control of our time here on Earth.
I think I envy those who have true faith and who accept their place in the scheme of things.
I see that you have lost all possibility in any such scheme and I understand why.
The real horrors of war are about to unfold as the two parties engage head to head.
It will not be pretty. (more British understatement for those reading from afar)
Best regards from Byron.
I'm getting ready for work, so don't have long.
Godzilla ~ I'm sure Japanese workers would be welcome with these jobs, whereas others would obviously be "screened out."
Linda ~ I have no idea who you might be referring to that would be cheering here. I've seen no one so sadistic. That's hyperbole. As for me, if/when I come across them, I carry spiders and moths outside, where I can release them to safety. I have with consistency said that I don't want anyone to die. I have also said that I suppport our troops, just as I did in Viet Nam, another war I didn't support, and Desert Storm. Might one suggest that I say, "I told you so" regarding DEATHS of Allied troops? Nothing could be more predictable in a war. War is about killing. I recall, though I can't recall verbatim, making a comment awhile back that when the ugly things [death of our troops] begin to occur and the body bags start piling up, I hope no one starts acting shocked or surprized. When they say, "All's fair in love and war....," the manner of killing, unfortunately, gets sucked into that....and rationalized later. Has there been a war yet that was absent war crimes? POWs have NEVER been treated fairly. I am grieved to see the individuals, and their lives, being sacrificed in this. They will live in terror, if they live at all....and their deaths cannot be presumed to be pleasant. These people hate us and consider every soldier symbolic of the source for that hatred. I would have had these soldiers remain in their own homes, thousands of miles from the sands and oil of Iraq.
The length of this war has been predictable, as well. The U.S. knows that if they presented it with, "We are going to go over to Iraq and fight for 10 years and maintain a continuous supply of our young men and women to do it," that the citizenry would not say, "Yes! Let's do it!" However, to take over and maintain [American occupation] of a country for one's own purposes will take that time and those people. As it is, Bush will need to keep "reframing" this war as the election nears.
Byron, Vern, and Godzilla ~ The drawing in of other nations in this is also predictable. Those countries who have talked [prior to its onset] about this war's impact as being destabilizing to the area, and raising many questions of a holy war against Islam, and the serious questions regarding U.S.'s motives, and that the U.S. may well find they've bitten off more than they can chew, have known how this is going to be perceived in the long run. Even this morning, they're talking about the surprizing resistance that's being met in the southern areas of Iraq, with people expected to be supportive of Saddam being ousted are still trying to protect their homeland, as they have serious questions as to the motives behind this war and are feeling it's more about oil than Saddam.
The "axis of Evil" comment was a predictive one to prepare us for the eventualities. If one remembers Bush saying not that long ago, and after September 11, that we weren't going to go to war, and how almost daily the posturing began to change, and how bin Laden has been metamorphosed into Saddam in terms of terrorism, and how the U.S. has clearly had its own timetable for supposed negotiations to be given a chance, the surety of this war, as well as what will be "required," "after" it, has in my mind been very clear.
~ Elizabeth
Godzilla ~ I'm sure Japanese workers would be welcome with these jobs, whereas others would obviously be "screened out."
Linda ~ I have no idea who you might be referring to that would be cheering here. I've seen no one so sadistic. That's hyperbole. As for me, if/when I come across them, I carry spiders and moths outside, where I can release them to safety. I have with consistency said that I don't want anyone to die. I have also said that I suppport our troops, just as I did in Viet Nam, another war I didn't support, and Desert Storm. Might one suggest that I say, "I told you so" regarding DEATHS of Allied troops? Nothing could be more predictable in a war. War is about killing. I recall, though I can't recall verbatim, making a comment awhile back that when the ugly things [death of our troops] begin to occur and the body bags start piling up, I hope no one starts acting shocked or surprized. When they say, "All's fair in love and war....," the manner of killing, unfortunately, gets sucked into that....and rationalized later. Has there been a war yet that was absent war crimes? POWs have NEVER been treated fairly. I am grieved to see the individuals, and their lives, being sacrificed in this. They will live in terror, if they live at all....and their deaths cannot be presumed to be pleasant. These people hate us and consider every soldier symbolic of the source for that hatred. I would have had these soldiers remain in their own homes, thousands of miles from the sands and oil of Iraq.
The length of this war has been predictable, as well. The U.S. knows that if they presented it with, "We are going to go over to Iraq and fight for 10 years and maintain a continuous supply of our young men and women to do it," that the citizenry would not say, "Yes! Let's do it!" However, to take over and maintain [American occupation] of a country for one's own purposes will take that time and those people. As it is, Bush will need to keep "reframing" this war as the election nears.
Byron, Vern, and Godzilla ~ The drawing in of other nations in this is also predictable. Those countries who have talked [prior to its onset] about this war's impact as being destabilizing to the area, and raising many questions of a holy war against Islam, and the serious questions regarding U.S.'s motives, and that the U.S. may well find they've bitten off more than they can chew, have known how this is going to be perceived in the long run. Even this morning, they're talking about the surprizing resistance that's being met in the southern areas of Iraq, with people expected to be supportive of Saddam being ousted are still trying to protect their homeland, as they have serious questions as to the motives behind this war and are feeling it's more about oil than Saddam.
The "axis of Evil" comment was a predictive one to prepare us for the eventualities. If one remembers Bush saying not that long ago, and after September 11, that we weren't going to go to war, and how almost daily the posturing began to change, and how bin Laden has been metamorphosed into Saddam in terms of terrorism, and how the U.S. has clearly had its own timetable for supposed negotiations to be given a chance, the surety of this war, as well as what will be "required," "after" it, has in my mind been very clear.
~ Elizabeth
Who said this would be a quick war?
Lizzytysh once again I have a communication misunderstanding with you and I have to clear up what I have said. I said " No where else have I heard a comment lke that, I guess I did and it" and I should have added so you would understand, "it was from and Iraqi and they were also cheering." Also what you add once again I could not disagree with more, no one believes in war that no one is going to die. But the humane treatment of prisoners in another matter. I don't think parading them, executing them, should be tolerated. Ever -anywhere.
After Sept. 11, I don't think you can say George Bush or any of our leaders said "there will be no war." war was to be a last resort and it was. If evidence was found as I believe it was that Saddam Hussein is backing terrorists, what more should have been done. George Bush went before the UN last fall, how long should we wait before we do something, I believe we would and possible will be attacked again just like Sept 11. We have the right to defend our country. How much time did we have? Do you believe Saddam is capable of terrorism or funding it?
As far as I told you so, yes you did Lizzytysh
Lizzytysh once again I have a communication misunderstanding with you and I have to clear up what I have said. I said " No where else have I heard a comment lke that, I guess I did and it" and I should have added so you would understand, "it was from and Iraqi and they were also cheering." Also what you add once again I could not disagree with more, no one believes in war that no one is going to die. But the humane treatment of prisoners in another matter. I don't think parading them, executing them, should be tolerated. Ever -anywhere.
After Sept. 11, I don't think you can say George Bush or any of our leaders said "there will be no war." war was to be a last resort and it was. If evidence was found as I believe it was that Saddam Hussein is backing terrorists, what more should have been done. George Bush went before the UN last fall, how long should we wait before we do something, I believe we would and possible will be attacked again just like Sept 11. We have the right to defend our country. How much time did we have? Do you believe Saddam is capable of terrorism or funding it?
As far as I told you so, yes you did Lizzytysh
Linda
Linda ~
Even though you seem to want to focus on me as being the one who "once again" have misinterpreted what you said, it seems rather obvious to me that I was not alone in that. You didn't have to clear it up with just me, Linda. You had to clear it up with everyone. I'll be interested to see the day if/when you stop trying to demonize me.
Who said that we would not be going to war? Bush. I heard it myself. Not long after September 11, when people feared that very thing. He also postured that early on with the negotiation process, allegedly presuming it would preclude it.
Who said it would be a quick war, after it was finally being spoken out that there would be one? Bush.
Oh really? I said that? Where? I said it was predictable. That is not the same, though it may be close. I told you so is generally reserved for something not as obvious, i.e. something where there is greater possibility for something to go either way, and one [or both] party[ies] being determined on one side or the other. Where one of the sides might respond with, "Well, I guess you were right." However, to predict that if the sun goes down, it will get dark.....and then when that occurs, say "I told you so" is as appropriate there as it is with deaths/POWS/torture occurring. Please don't be misled to think that the same does not occur with U.S. and their POWS. We just don't see it. Torture occurs on the road and in police departments all over the U.S. People in lower economic areas have begun to keep video cameras close at hand as a result.
I grieve over the Allied deaths and POWS already taken. For the black woman who was a cook, the mechanics on the road who simply made a wrong turn, the helicopters that crashed, and the helicopters shot down. I have nothing less than dread fear over what awaits the troops when they reach Baghdad and go into hand-to-hand combat, the old honourary way of fighting battles. I don't believe that Saddam's words regarding what awaits are necessarily hype on his part to keep his troops from becoming demoralizing. I believe we will see a sharp rise in casualties when they get there.
I also grieve when I hear the reports of damage and "collateral" deaths of innocent people, i.e. 27 in a bus; and when I saw a photo yesterday on one of the news sites of an Iraqi girl, guessing 7 years old, being held in the arms of a man, with her foot barely attached above the ankle, demolished, with the muscle and bones fully exposed....and the caption is to the effect of "a freed Iraqi." And when I hear of the multitudes of Iraqis rushing to the killing fields to gather and bury their dead, and vehicles are seen with crumpled arms and legs sticking out of trunks....and their anger is seen as they begin shouting obscenities at Allied [American in this case, I believe?] soldiers, to the extent that for security reasons, they had to let people go pick up their dead "one at a time."
Now, with all you've said about Saddam, you would somehow expect humane treatment of prisoners? You can't have it both ways, Linda.
The defending our country is a ruse. We've had a relative zillion nuclear weapons for years, and we expect him to have none. We are on his land and in his air space trying to kill him and "his" people. He is not here, and he has been in possession of nuclear weapons [that we gave him, when he had the "sense" to be on our side against Iran].
Our being attacked again has been predicted right along, all the way around.
~ Lizzytysh
Even though you seem to want to focus on me as being the one who "once again" have misinterpreted what you said, it seems rather obvious to me that I was not alone in that. You didn't have to clear it up with just me, Linda. You had to clear it up with everyone. I'll be interested to see the day if/when you stop trying to demonize me.
Who said that we would not be going to war? Bush. I heard it myself. Not long after September 11, when people feared that very thing. He also postured that early on with the negotiation process, allegedly presuming it would preclude it.
Who said it would be a quick war, after it was finally being spoken out that there would be one? Bush.
Oh really? I said that? Where? I said it was predictable. That is not the same, though it may be close. I told you so is generally reserved for something not as obvious, i.e. something where there is greater possibility for something to go either way, and one [or both] party[ies] being determined on one side or the other. Where one of the sides might respond with, "Well, I guess you were right." However, to predict that if the sun goes down, it will get dark.....and then when that occurs, say "I told you so" is as appropriate there as it is with deaths/POWS/torture occurring. Please don't be misled to think that the same does not occur with U.S. and their POWS. We just don't see it. Torture occurs on the road and in police departments all over the U.S. People in lower economic areas have begun to keep video cameras close at hand as a result.
I grieve over the Allied deaths and POWS already taken. For the black woman who was a cook, the mechanics on the road who simply made a wrong turn, the helicopters that crashed, and the helicopters shot down. I have nothing less than dread fear over what awaits the troops when they reach Baghdad and go into hand-to-hand combat, the old honourary way of fighting battles. I don't believe that Saddam's words regarding what awaits are necessarily hype on his part to keep his troops from becoming demoralizing. I believe we will see a sharp rise in casualties when they get there.
I also grieve when I hear the reports of damage and "collateral" deaths of innocent people, i.e. 27 in a bus; and when I saw a photo yesterday on one of the news sites of an Iraqi girl, guessing 7 years old, being held in the arms of a man, with her foot barely attached above the ankle, demolished, with the muscle and bones fully exposed....and the caption is to the effect of "a freed Iraqi." And when I hear of the multitudes of Iraqis rushing to the killing fields to gather and bury their dead, and vehicles are seen with crumpled arms and legs sticking out of trunks....and their anger is seen as they begin shouting obscenities at Allied [American in this case, I believe?] soldiers, to the extent that for security reasons, they had to let people go pick up their dead "one at a time."
Now, with all you've said about Saddam, you would somehow expect humane treatment of prisoners? You can't have it both ways, Linda.
The defending our country is a ruse. We've had a relative zillion nuclear weapons for years, and we expect him to have none. We are on his land and in his air space trying to kill him and "his" people. He is not here, and he has been in possession of nuclear weapons [that we gave him, when he had the "sense" to be on our side against Iran].
Our being attacked again has been predicted right along, all the way around.
~ Lizzytysh
The reason I focused on you Lizzytysh is that you picked out a sentence that I wrote and turned it into something it was not meant as, and I should have said Iraqis were cheering. I hope not "everyone" read it the same way as you, but if they did I am sorry, and I hope they come back and read exactly how I meant it.
I also heard President Bush say we were not going to war time and time again. War was a last resort. A last resort.
On Sunday Tim Russert asked point blank of Donald Rumsfield if he had said that this war would be a piece of cake, and he said no he had never said that, and he knew of no one who had said that. I know our leaders and our people are smarter than to say that.
Give our leaders credit they will put them selves in front of reporters, from all over the world, answering questions. And I have to say I am impressed with the way they conduct themselves and their answers. I suppose I am bias, yes. There are reporters with all our military companies that are in Iraq, everything is being documented, reported. No I don't expect humane treatment by Saddam of prisoners, does that mean that we should not be there, our soldiers are always trained what to do if they are taken prisoner of war, that is a reality of being a soldier. I can not think of any country that would be worse to be a prisoner of war in than under his Saddams regime.
The defending of our country is a ruse? Just now? or has this always been true?
I also heard President Bush say we were not going to war time and time again. War was a last resort. A last resort.
On Sunday Tim Russert asked point blank of Donald Rumsfield if he had said that this war would be a piece of cake, and he said no he had never said that, and he knew of no one who had said that. I know our leaders and our people are smarter than to say that.
Give our leaders credit they will put them selves in front of reporters, from all over the world, answering questions. And I have to say I am impressed with the way they conduct themselves and their answers. I suppose I am bias, yes. There are reporters with all our military companies that are in Iraq, everything is being documented, reported. No I don't expect humane treatment by Saddam of prisoners, does that mean that we should not be there, our soldiers are always trained what to do if they are taken prisoner of war, that is a reality of being a soldier. I can not think of any country that would be worse to be a prisoner of war in than under his Saddams regime.
The defending of our country is a ruse? Just now? or has this always been true?
Linda
The best way to get clarification on or to refute or question anything is to be specific about what it is you're talking about. I "picked out" the sentence in question and did not "turn it into anything." I addressed it, per my interpretation, given the inadequacy of detail within it to possibly do otherwise. Yes, you should have said Iraqis were cheering, if that's what you meant.
"...what do I read on here about it when elazar mentioned it. No where else have I heard a comment like that, well come to think of it I did and I guess they were also cheering watching them being shot."
As I reread your sentence, I still do not get where it's the Iraqis you're referring to. The comment you're referring to appears to have been Elazar's and his comment would have been on behalf of those shot, and "on here" is presumably the Forum.....the implication being the insensitivity to the issue of the shootings. The "well come to think of it" has a certain tone to it as well. However, I'll take it at face value that that's not what you meant....as the others have, since your explanation to me.
Excuse me, Linda, but what you say does confuse me. This was your comment: "After Sept. 11, I don't think you can say George Bush or any of our leaders said 'there will be no war'." Now your comment is: "I also heard President Bush say we were not going to war time and time again."
Defending our country is a necessity when it's called for. Defending our country as being a reason for going to war with Iraq is a ruse. As far as their parading their POWS in front of the cameras, they are simply taking advantage of a photo-op, that we are more than happy to utilize with mega-bombing of their country and people.
~ Lizzytysh
"...what do I read on here about it when elazar mentioned it. No where else have I heard a comment like that, well come to think of it I did and I guess they were also cheering watching them being shot."
As I reread your sentence, I still do not get where it's the Iraqis you're referring to. The comment you're referring to appears to have been Elazar's and his comment would have been on behalf of those shot, and "on here" is presumably the Forum.....the implication being the insensitivity to the issue of the shootings. The "well come to think of it" has a certain tone to it as well. However, I'll take it at face value that that's not what you meant....as the others have, since your explanation to me.
Excuse me, Linda, but what you say does confuse me. This was your comment: "After Sept. 11, I don't think you can say George Bush or any of our leaders said 'there will be no war'." Now your comment is: "I also heard President Bush say we were not going to war time and time again."
Defending our country is a necessity when it's called for. Defending our country as being a reason for going to war with Iraq is a ruse. As far as their parading their POWS in front of the cameras, they are simply taking advantage of a photo-op, that we are more than happy to utilize with mega-bombing of their country and people.
~ Lizzytysh
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Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
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Point of order people.
Can I draw your attention to the matter raised by Linda and responded to by several others.
Namely, the use by the Iraqi authorities of the opportunity to show POWs on global TV. The civilised world finds such behaviour abhorrent and I'm sure that you would agree with that point. To sit in our homes and to watch that aspect of war is not pleasant.
Here comes the 'However'.
However, (I said it was coming), when the US military announced that "A" day had finally arrived, how many of you rushed to your TV screens to watch, (and I know some of you counted), the hundreds of missiles rain down on the city of Baghdad?
Don't attack me for raising this point. Have a look at your own conscience. I suspect that you did indeed struggle with your conscience, but you won. Just have a think about that for a second or two. And answer yourself honestly. Not me. But yourself.
I really do mean that you should ask yourself how you responded. I'm not in the least bit bothered about replies to me on this point. It's one for you alone as you sit in front of your computer screen.
Can I draw your attention to the matter raised by Linda and responded to by several others.
Namely, the use by the Iraqi authorities of the opportunity to show POWs on global TV. The civilised world finds such behaviour abhorrent and I'm sure that you would agree with that point. To sit in our homes and to watch that aspect of war is not pleasant.
Here comes the 'However'.
However, (I said it was coming), when the US military announced that "A" day had finally arrived, how many of you rushed to your TV screens to watch, (and I know some of you counted), the hundreds of missiles rain down on the city of Baghdad?
Don't attack me for raising this point. Have a look at your own conscience. I suspect that you did indeed struggle with your conscience, but you won. Just have a think about that for a second or two. And answer yourself honestly. Not me. But yourself.
I really do mean that you should ask yourself how you responded. I'm not in the least bit bothered about replies to me on this point. It's one for you alone as you sit in front of your computer screen.
This thread has got too messy I have no idea about the contents of it. It is all over the place.
It is a war. People die in wars. The amount of people who have been killed in this one so far is minimal. It is a war for public consumption via the media.
I know I am being simplistic but get the deaths in context. Godzilla I think Byron was succinct in his characterising the British people. I am extremely proud of my country and my countrymen. We are a small island and we have contributed much to the world. We have lost a disproportate amount of men in this war. Britain is the size of a small state in the USA but we have a courageous fighting force. I am so proud of all the men and women who are fighting for us. And I think this childish in-fighting is pathetic.
It is a war. People die in wars. The amount of people who have been killed in this one so far is minimal. It is a war for public consumption via the media.
I know I am being simplistic but get the deaths in context. Godzilla I think Byron was succinct in his characterising the British people. I am extremely proud of my country and my countrymen. We are a small island and we have contributed much to the world. We have lost a disproportate amount of men in this war. Britain is the size of a small state in the USA but we have a courageous fighting force. I am so proud of all the men and women who are fighting for us. And I think this childish in-fighting is pathetic.
Lizzytysh, "If thats what you meant"? interesting way of putting it. Yes that is what I meant!
I am horrified at all it. Does that mean we shouldn't be fighting this war? I don't believe so. This is not the only suffering that has or is going on in the world or yet to come. I cry many times watching t.v, reading newspapers hearing what is going on in the world. Does that mean we do nothing. I cried when I watched an example of a partial birth abortion, when I see starving children in the world, watching holocaust movies, the first night that bombs were dropped on bunkers, with hopes Saddam was inside gave me a sinking feeling that he may be dying right now however I did not shed tears, I could go on and on with a list of where tears are shed. How can anyone think we would be watching this war on television and feel anything but horror. What have we felt hearing of what Saddam has done to hundreds of thousands of people over the years, horror. My conscience is telling me that the suffering has to end, but for the last week now I have not believed it could have been done peacefully. This was up to Saddam, he was given an ultimatum, whether you believe that or not, I do. He had a choice and one was to comply.
I don't recall him saying there will never be a war, how could anyone say that? Yes, when asked by the press if we are going to war I heard him say countless times "we are not going to war, it is a last resort" over and over to reporters earlier on in the year. What else would he say. He tried every possible avenue other than war.
I guess it must be my way of phrasing that is the problem here.
I am horrified at all it. Does that mean we shouldn't be fighting this war? I don't believe so. This is not the only suffering that has or is going on in the world or yet to come. I cry many times watching t.v, reading newspapers hearing what is going on in the world. Does that mean we do nothing. I cried when I watched an example of a partial birth abortion, when I see starving children in the world, watching holocaust movies, the first night that bombs were dropped on bunkers, with hopes Saddam was inside gave me a sinking feeling that he may be dying right now however I did not shed tears, I could go on and on with a list of where tears are shed. How can anyone think we would be watching this war on television and feel anything but horror. What have we felt hearing of what Saddam has done to hundreds of thousands of people over the years, horror. My conscience is telling me that the suffering has to end, but for the last week now I have not believed it could have been done peacefully. This was up to Saddam, he was given an ultimatum, whether you believe that or not, I do. He had a choice and one was to comply.
I don't recall him saying there will never be a war, how could anyone say that? Yes, when asked by the press if we are going to war I heard him say countless times "we are not going to war, it is a last resort" over and over to reporters earlier on in the year. What else would he say. He tried every possible avenue other than war.
I guess it must be my way of phrasing that is the problem here.
Linda
Linda ~
One option would have been for G.W.B. to say "We may go to war." Another option [once the world realized what was about to happen and once it started] would have been to say "This war may be a long one." Those phrasings at least approach honesty.
To add to what Byron has said, it seems it's OK knowing that people are dying/being captured, as long as we don't have to look at it happening to ours.
One perspective might be that if people see exactly what some of the realities of war are truly like, they might think about the diplomacy route [which nations worldwide feel had not be followed long enough] a little more ~ and also may not be so willing to send our forces over there to obtain and support Bush's territorial and economic gains. However, I don't hear the outcry when the photos are of Iraqi troops and our bombings of Iraq, which is just as obscene in my opinion. There are still people beneath all that, that are being mercilessly blown to pieces and maimed. The honourable battles are eye-to-ey and that level of battle is now being shown, at least somewhat, via the Iraqis, who don't have the advantage of the air power and bombs. Plus, the idea of peasant farmers bringing down a helicopter with rifles has to be very satisfying on a moral/ethical level with those who did it, considering the magnitude of the David and Goliath proportions in operation here.
It seems to be uncomfortable for U.S. audiences only when it's U.S. victims. It is noted on a CNN site that "U.S. forces allowed journalists with them to do the same with Iraqi POWs [the speaker noted]." Of course, we may whitewash what we film in order to continue making them be the only "bad guys."
I've never heard in any biblical or other spiritual references that G..d values one life over another. You could even go so far as to say that U.S. Army soldiers knew where they were headed and what they were trained to do, whereas the innocent Iraqi citizens had only been praying to survive until now, and now, to survive this, never having been trained opr planning to kill anyone.
Am I saying any of this because I don't care about our troops? If you're tempted to answer that I obviously don't, remind yourself that I'm one of those who has been pleading for peace [no killing] ~ not war [killing] ~ so I would not have to see and imagine accounts such as are now filling our screens, newspapers, and radios.
I am sickened to see and read about 19-year-old Jessica Lynch, missing amongst the mechanics who were ambushed. These stories will continue. Already a disproportionate number of 20-year-olds, as well as British, have died. I agree with Paula and Byron that they can be proud of their troops. They stand much less to gain economically through Bush's war. As I've said before, the worst is yet to come.
~ Lizzytysh
One option would have been for G.W.B. to say "We may go to war." Another option [once the world realized what was about to happen and once it started] would have been to say "This war may be a long one." Those phrasings at least approach honesty.
To add to what Byron has said, it seems it's OK knowing that people are dying/being captured, as long as we don't have to look at it happening to ours.
One perspective might be that if people see exactly what some of the realities of war are truly like, they might think about the diplomacy route [which nations worldwide feel had not be followed long enough] a little more ~ and also may not be so willing to send our forces over there to obtain and support Bush's territorial and economic gains. However, I don't hear the outcry when the photos are of Iraqi troops and our bombings of Iraq, which is just as obscene in my opinion. There are still people beneath all that, that are being mercilessly blown to pieces and maimed. The honourable battles are eye-to-ey and that level of battle is now being shown, at least somewhat, via the Iraqis, who don't have the advantage of the air power and bombs. Plus, the idea of peasant farmers bringing down a helicopter with rifles has to be very satisfying on a moral/ethical level with those who did it, considering the magnitude of the David and Goliath proportions in operation here.
It seems to be uncomfortable for U.S. audiences only when it's U.S. victims. It is noted on a CNN site that "U.S. forces allowed journalists with them to do the same with Iraqi POWs [the speaker noted]." Of course, we may whitewash what we film in order to continue making them be the only "bad guys."
I've never heard in any biblical or other spiritual references that G..d values one life over another. You could even go so far as to say that U.S. Army soldiers knew where they were headed and what they were trained to do, whereas the innocent Iraqi citizens had only been praying to survive until now, and now, to survive this, never having been trained opr planning to kill anyone.
Am I saying any of this because I don't care about our troops? If you're tempted to answer that I obviously don't, remind yourself that I'm one of those who has been pleading for peace [no killing] ~ not war [killing] ~ so I would not have to see and imagine accounts such as are now filling our screens, newspapers, and radios.
I am sickened to see and read about 19-year-old Jessica Lynch, missing amongst the mechanics who were ambushed. These stories will continue. Already a disproportionate number of 20-year-olds, as well as British, have died. I agree with Paula and Byron that they can be proud of their troops. They stand much less to gain economically through Bush's war. As I've said before, the worst is yet to come.
~ Lizzytysh