leonardcohenforum.com

My apologies, I should not have suggested a new topic prematurely!

Alan did a thoughtful (and I'll bet time-consuming) job in interpreting Avalanche's lyrics in the context of a (love?) relationship. I liked the "you are smothering me, back off" and "I think/hope I am still in control of myself/the situation, but I'm not convinced" translations.

Then I read Vickie's post and something hit me, about what her husband said, "he chose the words that he did because not only did they rhyme and sound awesome together, but they hinted at his anguish..." Actually, two things hit me, one humorous and one serious:

First the humorous, I had a mental image of Vickie's husband, the poor guy is just trying to get some work done outside or in the barn, maybe working on a piece of equipment, and Vickie comes up and asks him, "What does Avalanche mean?"

More seriously, "he chose the words he did because not only did they rhyme..." returned me to the very basic reality that LC was a poet...an artist, a student, a thinker...someone who made a decision to devote his life to trying to understand that which cannot be understood and to help others do the same. Maybe the relationship that Alan was uncovering was the relationship between LC and his work.

The writer/singer is LC, and the avalanche he stepped into was choosing to be a poet, a man of words, a field that is rife with frustration. Anyone who writes a lot will tell you how frustrating it is, how long it sometimes takes to create a paragraph, a page. And of course, we all know that LC demanded perfection, so for him the process would have been more exasperating. The hunchback's deformity is also a symbol for his chosen craft, the cross he has to bear.

The one he speaks to in the song is a symbol for those he is expected to please through his work (readers, audience, agents, critics, and yes, women), but so far the results have been mixed. And no one really appreciates how hard it is! LC is where he is (on a pedestal) because that was his choice, and he will pursue his craft as he sees fit, not for popularity; he is, or wants to be, in control.

The "I have begun to long for you" and "Do not dress in those rags for me" verses that conclude the song might be interpreted as LC mentally arguing with himself as to the importance of his being accepted in his field. First, he admits to desiring such acceptance, then he recovers and adopts the tough guy attitude.

After the end of such a long and remarkable career, it is easy to lose sight of how difficult things were in LC's earlier life, and how many bumps were in that long road. Consider that, roughly through the time that Avalanche was written, (1) LC probably received little or no support for his career path from close family; (2) despite critical acclaim, there was only sparse acceptance of his early poetry work; (3) his novels, especially Beautiful Losers, were not much respected; (4) earnings were hard to come by and he often had to rely on literary awards and perhaps family help; and (5) his early albums were not popular in the biggest (US) market and worse, were sometimes denigrated.

So it seems at least plausible that the avalanche LC stepped into was his career choice.

4

First off, the video 4 posted the link for...

its4inthemorning wrote:The video is not a song or interview, it is Leonard's Prince of Asturias Award acceptance speech given in Spain in 2011. There is not much more I can say, it speaks for itself. The mother of all acceptance speeches.

Wow. Yes, the mother of acceptance speeches indeed. I liked his thoughts on Lorca and the voice and locating your voice and speaking with dignity and beauty. And I loved the story of how he got his 'song'... the story about his guitar teacher. Thank you for the link 4!

Back to Avalanche...

its4inthemorning wrote: Alan did a thoughtful (and I'll bet time-consuming) job in interpreting Avalanche's lyrics in the context of a (love?) relationship. I liked the "you are smothering me, back off" and "I think/hope I am still in control of myself/the situation, but I'm not convinced" translations."

These lyrics are so enigmatic that attempting to translate or interpret them takes a leap of faith, and Alan did great work with them! I have yet to be successful in sustaining a line by line interpretation in following my thoughts. It seems the best I can do is get a general idea-- like the flavor of the song. I also liked Alan's idea in the translation "you are smothering me, back off" and like 4 suggests, that could be seen either as a romantic statement or a career statement.

its4inthemorning wrote:I had a mental image of Vickie's husband, the poor guy is just trying to get some work done outside or in the barn, maybe working on a piece of equipment, and Vickie comes up and asks him, "What does Avalanche mean?"

4, you are funny! Although my husband working outside in the barn or on a piece of equipment isn't far from reality on some days, it was more me greeting him at the door when he came home from work talking nonstop about Leonard Cohen and dragging him to the computer to read Alan's interpretation and then discuss my own. When he was in the Coast Guard, there was a yearly tradition of honoring the military spouse for their support and understanding. Perhaps there should be something similar for the spouses of Leonard Cohen fans! My husband is certainly earning it.

its4inthemorning wrote: Consider that, roughly through the time that Avalanche was written, (1) LC probably received little or no support for his career path from close family; (2) despite critical acclaim, there was only sparse acceptance of his early poetry work; (3) his novels, especially Beautiful Losers, were not much respected; (4) earnings were hard to come by and he often had to rely on literary awards and perhaps family help; and (5) his early albums were not popular in the biggest (US) market and worse, were sometimes denigrated.

This is exactly what my husband wanted to know when I suggested it might be about his passion (his talent)! He asked me, "Well, what was happening to him at this particular time in his life?" and assumed the answer would be a troubled relationship. I told him that he might be right, but I still thought it sounded more that he was talking about his all-engulfing passion for creating his work and the effects that was having on his life.

its4inthemorning wrote: So it seems at least plausible that the avalanche LC stepped into was his career choice.

I like this theory.
Vickie

At the beginning of my analysis I agreed with the metaphorical/allegorical assessment that 4 had stated, and then gave my interpretation of the relationship aspect, which in itself is mysterious, never mind (good song title!) digging out the underlying meaning.
Before I started this reply I checked Wikipedia to see if there is a way of defining the obvious and the hidden aspects of allegory. There doesn't seem to be, but I did encounter a word new to me:
Since meaningful stories are nearly always applicable to larger issues, allegories may be read into many stories which the author may not have recognised. This is allegoresis, or the act of reading a story as an allegory.
So is this allegory or allegoresis?
The book I hope that will never be published: My Songs and Their Meanings by Leonard Cohen.
I think it is much more fun to speculate and to read the opinions of others.
I'm a little surprised that there has been no recent comment from Lady Lyrics (Bev). Gathering data perhaps?

A few/some/many/most/all of Leonard Cohen's lyrics are biographical/autobiographical/allegorical/mysterious/uplifting/amusing/reassuring. Discuss with examples both for and against.
How about that for an Eng Lit exam question?
I'd move on to the next one on the paper, I think. My answer could take a lifetime.

Next song for discussion: Famous Blue Raincoat. I'll let you lead off 4, fo(u)r obvious reasons!

Alan

AlanM post wrote:So is this allegory or allegoresis?

I vote allegoresis- but to be honest I had to look up the definition of both to decide. I need to confess that due to over 19 moves before my 16th year, my childhood didn't offer much in the way of education and my personal choices as a young adult did little to remedy that. However now that I am getting old, I find it fun to try. I think allegoresis is a fine picture of what Leonard brings out in his fans. As for your Eng Lit exam question, I would sign up for that, but like you, only if I had a lifetime left.

AlanM post wrote:Next song for discussion: Famous Blue Raincoat. I'll let you lead off 4, fo(u)r obvious reasons!

Yes!
And by the way, thank you for adding your thoughts to this discussion, Alan!
Vickie

So is this allegory or allegoresis?

I have thought a bit more on this dilemma and was going to change the question to: So is Avalanche allegory or allegoresis? I've changed my mind and now I would change it to So are some or all of Leonard Cohen's lyrics allegory or allegoresis?
Alan

AlanM wrote: So are some or all of Leonard Cohen's lyrics allegory or allegoresis?

I was going to say, since you put it that way, his lyrics are allegories. But then I realized that since he uses allegories (myths, common allegorical images) in many of his lyrics to create the "something" that aligns with his vision to get his point across, then some (but not necessarily all) of his lyrics are allegoresis.
Maybe?
Vickie

Result of pondering the real meaning of Avalanche:

https://youtu.be/MrCPIrs90eg

4

4 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdjOdMx2j1g

You two!

‘bout those last few posts - I laughed so much my sides were aching and I got the hiccups!!

Vickie, I’m not trying to make you buy any of these live albums but this one is excellent!
Cohen Live 1994
01. Dance Me To The End Of Love 6:10 (Toronto 17 June 1993)
02. Bird On The Wire 6:53 (Toronto 17 June 1993)
03. Everybody Knows 6:06 (Vancouver 29 July 1993)
04. Joan Of Arc 6:13 (Toronto 17 June 1993)
05. There Is A War 4:46 (Toronto 17 June 1993)
06. Sisters Of Mercy 6:15 (Toronto 18 June 1993)
07. Hallelujah 6:54 (Austin 31 October 1988)
08. I’m Your Man 5:29 (Toronto 17 June 1993)
09. Who By Fire 5:09 (Austin 31 October 1988)
10. One Of Us Cannot Be Wrong 5:20 (San Sebastian 20 May 1988)
11. If It Be Your Will 3:16 (Austin 31 October 1988)
12. Heart With No Companion 4:50 (Amsterdam 19 April 1988)
13. Suzanne 4:18 (Vancouver 29 July 1993)

And you know this next one is my favourite live album
Field Commander Cohen tour of (1979) 2001
01. Field Commander Cohen 4:25
02. The Window 5:51 (violin solo by Raffi Hakopian)
03. The Smokey Life 5:34 (duet with Jennifer Warnes)
04. The Gypsy’s Wife 5:20 (violin solo by Raffi Hakopian)
05. Lover, Lover, Lover 6:31 (includes two long oud solos by John Bilezikjian)
06. Hey, That’s No Way To Say Goodbye 4:04 (violin solo by Raffi Hakopian)
07. The Stranger Song 4:55
08. The Guests 6:05 (violin solo by Raffi Hakopian)
09. Memories 4:38 (sax solo by Paul Ostermayer)
10. Why Don’t You Try 3:43 (duet with Sharon Robinson, solo by Paul Ostermayer)
11. Bird On The Wire 5:10 (guitar solo by Mitch Watkins)
12. So Long, Marianne 6:44

You already have the next three live albums.

Then there is an extended play from the very first night of the “come back” tour.
Live In Fredericton EP (2008) 2012
01. Dance Me To The End of Love
02. In My Secret Life
03. Heart With No Companion
04. Bird On The Wire
05. Who By Fire

This next one was put out for people to enjoy a “night out” at a Leonard Cohen concert.
As it turns out it is the last official live concert.....so far
Live In Dublin (2013) 2014
Set 1
01. Dance Me to the End of Love
02. The Future
03. Bird on the Wire
04. Everybody Knows
05. Who By Fire
06. The Gypsy's Wife
07. Darkness
08. Amen
09. Come Healing
10. Lover Lover Lover
11. Anthem
Set 2
12. Tower of Song
13. Suzanne
14. Chelsea Hotel #2
15. Waiting for the Miracle
16. The Partisan
17. In My Secret Life
18. Alexandra Leaving (Sharon Robinson)
19. I'm Your Man
20. A Thousand Kisses Deep (Recitation)
21. Hallelujah
22. Take this Waltz
Encore
23. So Long, Marianne
24. Going Home
25. First We Take Manhattan
26. Famous Blue Raincoat
27. If It Be Your Will (Webb Sisters)
28. Closing Time
29. I Tried to Leave You
30. Save the Last Dance for Me
DVD/BluRay Bonus songs:
01. Show Me The Place (Halifax Metro Centre, Halifax, NS, Canada – April 13, 2013)
02. Anyhow (Mile One Centre, St. John's, NL, Canada – April 20, 2013)
03. Different Sides (Harbour Station, St. John, NB, Canada – April 15, 2013)

And the very last live album –
Can’t Forget – A Souvenir Of The Grand Tour 2015
01. Field Commander Cohen 4:26 (soundcheck - Denver, First Bank Center - Nov. 3, 2012)
02. I Can’t Forget 4:19 (show - Copenhagen, Rosenborg Castle - Aug. 25, 2012)
03. Light as a (?the) Breeze 6:35 (show - Dublin, IMMA - Sept. 11, 2012)
04. La Manic 4:16 (show - Quebec City, Colisée Pepsi - Dec 2, 2012)
05. Night Comes On 5:57 (show - Mönchengladbach, Warsteiner Hockey Park - Sept. 6, 2012)
06. Never Gave Nobody Trouble 4:53 (soundcheck - Odense, King’s Garden - Aug. 17, 2013)
07. Joan of Arc 6:32 (soundcheck, Quebec City, Colisée Pepsi - Dec. 2, 2012)
08. Got a Little Secret 4:37 (soundcheck - Auckland, Vector Arena - Dec. 21, 2013)
09. Choices 3:33 (soundcheck - Christchurch, CBS Arena - Dec. 14, 2013)
10. Stages 3:42 (show - Sydney, Opera House - Dec 2, 2013 & soundcheck - Hamburg, O2 World - July 14, 2013)

I’ll include the last two songs on this studio album just to show that they are new songs which aren’t on any other official album -
More Best Of Leonard Cohen 1997
12. Never Any Good (**) 5:04
13. The Great Event (**) 1:09
Songs marked with (**) previously unpublished

There are two other studio albums but the songs on them (and the rest of the album above) are already on previous albums.
The Best Of Leonard Cohen 1975
The Essential Leonard Cohen Limited Edition 3.0 2008

Like I say, this is just information for you to know what’s actually on the remaining albums so you can make an informed choice if you want to. I really don’t work for Leonard’s management or Sony

AlanM wrote: I'm a little surprised that there has been no recent comment from Lady Lyrics (Bev). Gathering data perhaps?

Ah Alan, I like "Lady Lyrics"
And I have been gathering data alright!....but it's on family history and it's getting much more unbelievable

Thank you B4! This will be an excellent resource for me as I go along. I have ordered getting Cohen Live 1994, Field Commander Cohen Tour, and Live in Dublin from Amazon. I think I will listen to Field Commander Cohen first and not just because it is your favorite, although that is a very good reason. I may have told you that I love this time of his career, and I see there are some of my very favorite songs on it!

I was just pondering Famous Blue Raincoat (hint, hint ...4), because they were just talking about the actual raincoat in the biography I am reading ("Various Positions"). Out of curiosity I googled "blue Burberry raincoat with epaulets" so see what they look like and if they make them anymore and what they go for and ..... So much for my desire to have one of my own!

Thanks again B4!
Vickie

4, I hope your head has stopped hurting and the remedy I provided has helped a wee tad and soothed you

And my pleasure to be of assistance, Vickie!

Seeing as you're talking about Famous Blue Raincoat I thought I’d give some insight as to what Leonard himself said and thought about this song - I haven't looked at any bio books yet so some quotes may be in there too:

I had a good raincoat then, a Burberry I got in London in 1959. Elizabeth thought I looked like a spider in it. That was probably why she wouldn't go to Greece with me. It hung more heroically when I took out the lining, and achieved glory when the frayed sleeves were repaired with a little leather. Things were clear. I knew how to dress in those days. It was stolen from Marianne's loft in NY sometime during the early seventies. I wasn't wearing it very much toward the end ~1976 Greatest Hits album back cover

This line is written in the prose of Death to This Book, “and me thin again in my blue raincoat” ~ 1978 Death of a Lady’s Man

I finished the lyric for that song in NY in a loft on Clinton St. I think I mention Clinton St. "There's music on Clinton St all through the evening". I began the melody for that song around 1968. I remember playing it for my mother in her kitchen before it had a lyric. She said she liked the tune. The lyric developed somewhat later. I think it was in the early 70's, maybe. I was living with Marianna in a loft on Stanton St and I remember the notebook, it was a blue covered notebook. And I began writing. In fact I have the notebook over there I think ~1979 Harry Rasky The Song Of LC

That was one I thought was never finished. And I thought that Jennifer Warnes’ version in a sense was better because I worked on a different version for her, and I thought it was somewhat more coherent. But I always thought that that was a song you could see the carpentry in a bit. Although there are some images in it that I am very pleased with. And the tune is real good. But I’m willing to defend it, saying it was impressionistic. It’s stylistically coherent. And I can defend it if I have to. But secretly I always felt that there was a certain incoherence that prevented it from being a great song ~1992 Songwriters on Songwriting

The trouble (problem) with that song is that I've forgotten the actual triangle. Whether it was my own...of course. I always felt that there was an invisible male seducing the woman I was with, now whether this one was incarnate or merely imaginary I don't remember, I've always had the sense that either I've been that figure in relation to another couple or there'd been a figure like that in relation to my marriage. I don't quite remember but I did have this feeling that there was always a third party, sometimes me, sometimes another man, sometimes another woman. It was a song I've never been satisfied with. It's not that I've resisted an impressionistic approach to songwriting, but I've never felt that this one, that I really nailed the lyric. I'm ready to concede something to the mystery, but secretly I've always felt that there was something about the song that was unclear. So I've been very happy with some of the imagery, but a lot of the imagery... The tune I think is good, I remember my mother approving of it, I remember playing the tune for her, in her kitchen, and her perking up her ears while she was doing something else and saying "that's a nice tune" ~1994 BBC Radio 1

B4real wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:15 am And I have been gathering data alright!....but it's on family history and it's getting much more unbelievable

And it seems Leonard is everywhere A couple of places caught my eye while collecting my family data - St Leonards On Sea and Sainte-Suzanne - and as it turns out both most relevant - very interesting indeed!

Hi B4!

Thank you very, very much for your quotes from Leonard regarding the raincoat. I love reading any of his quotes, especially the ones, like these, that make him seem more human. That is one of the things I really like about the current bio I am on (Various Positions, Nadel)-- the author has chosen quotes and letters and such that really bring him to life for me. It seems that although the author admired him, he didn't deify him. Of course if anyone deserves to be deified it would be Leonard, but alas, he is all in all just a man.

I have to agree with what he himself said about the lyrics of Famous Blue Raincoat, "I don't quite remember but I did have this feeling that there was always a third party, sometimes me, sometimes another man, sometimes another woman...... I'm ready to concede something to the mystery, but secretly I've always felt that there was something about the song that was unclear." (from the BBC 1994 quote) I also agree with his mother when she said, "That's a nice tune". There is so much to love about this song in both lyrics and melody!

What juicy bits have you been uncovering in your genealogy? You can message me if you prefer, but you have my curiosity.
Vickie

I've been thinking of the aspects of FBR that originally drew me to the song:

First of course was the title of the song. I knew when I first listened to SOLAH that Leonard Cohen's music was avant garde (that is, per Dictionary.com, unorthodox, daring, radical), and choosing such a preposterous title for the song was a part of the mystique.

Then there was the overall concept, setting a written letter to music. This probably had been done by others, but not in such an obvious manner, and not such an intimate letter.

I grew up in the NJ suburbs of New York City, and the city was always an exciting place for teens to visit, a place where you could see live music and drink alcohol (at that time the drinking age in NJ was 21, but it was only 18 in NYC, and even for 16- or 17-year-olds it was never difficult to drink in NYC back then). The clear references to NYC ("New York is cold...there's music on Clinton Street) was another hook of FBR for me.

Adding to the allure of the song were certain references to things that were unfamiliar to me at the time, like going clear and Lili Marlene. It was not common back then for songs to include unfamiliar terms that might go over the heads of listeners; by doing so, LC was in effect saying, "It took me a long time to construct my lyrics, they portray exactly what I wanted them to, now it is your job to affix a meaning to them."

The imagery in FBR is just outstanding. As I listened back then, these clear images always appeared: A man writing a letter in his room in the dead of night. A street in Greenwich Village with people strolling late at night, with music leaking out from the bars and clubs. A man in his late 30's/early 40's--but still thinking he's in his 20's--wearing a frayed blue raincoat. The same man, with a rose in his teeth, trying to be the life of the party. A woman--Jane--lying on bed, sleepy-eyed, asking the writer what he is writing about so late at night. (I still see these images when I listen today.)

Aside from the lyrics, I loved LC's guitar work in FBR, it provided the perfect background to the plaintive lyrics.

As for the tune or melody, it always seemed a bit enigmatic to me for quite sometime--interesting and haunting, but seemingly disjointed. It actually took me quite some time to understand the structure and progression of the song, although now that seems obvious.

A final magnet that drew me to FBR was the ending, "Sincerely, L. Cohen." Once again, here was a songwriter unafraid to do something that hadn't been done before (at least that I know of).

One final comment: On the original recording of FBR, listen to how LC pronounces "flake." It is very distinct, almost emphasizing the "k" at the end. I realized many years back that LC almost always took great pains to make his sung words perfectly clear. I think this came from his poetry training, when poetry is read aloud the norm seems to be to use perfect diction.

4

4-
What a perfect portrayal of your thoughts on FBR! To be truthful, I am not so much interested in what anyone thinks the lyrics mean exactly, but how do the lyrics make you feel and what kinds of images and memories do they bring to mind, and what about the music? That, I am definitely interested in. So thank you for sharing. I am in a time crunch right now, so I will have to save further comments for this evening, when after our work is done. I just wanted to say that I really liked your post on this song!
Vickie