hell bent on war

This is for your own works!!!
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Byron
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Post by Byron »

Paula, thank you for your kind words.

I really do hope that eeey's response to you in which you were addressed as "Pula" was and is a genuine typing error.

For those of you in the forum who are not aware of the word 'pula' and its grammatical meaning, I refer to my trusty Concise Oxford Dictionary.

A pula is someone who cries querulously or weakly, and whines and whimpers.

Some of you might expect an unambiguous, unequivocal, plain and unmistakable clarification from eeey to Paula.

As for myself, I hear you ask, well, I still live in hope. My door remains open.
eeey
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Post by eeey »

Byron,

Here is an unambiguous, unequivocal, plain and unmistakeable clarification for YOU.

There is no such word as Pula. The word is Pule. To chirp, whine, to cry weakly, whimper.

And you are right, "Pula" was and is a typo...in the same way that Paula's typing of eeey as "Eeny" was and is a geniune typing error.


eeey
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Post by Byron »

eeey. Paula is correct when she says that we share the same language.

However, we do not use the same words.

In my country a pula is someone who pules. That is a fact. It is British usage. My grandmother used to use the word when describing babies who cried a lot. It was a very derogatory remark. That is why I noticed it in your response to Paula.

To prove my point and use your own words to explain my point, the British people have no idea what 'dissing' someone means.
That word does not appear in my trusty Concise Oxford Dictionary.

However it does in appear in your previous postings.

I really do despair at the continuing attitude which you display when I have gone far more than the extra mile to make amends. G-d knows I've tried my best but you are just not worth any more of the heartfelt effort I have publicly put in, to show you and the rest of this forum, that I do not bare you any grudge or malice.

I hope for all our sakes that you are just a person who gets their kicks out of stirring up trouble in forums such as this. Otherwise, you are well on the way to shattering any faith I have in the goodness and kindness of gentle human beings.
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Post by George.Wright »

Well said Byron................you have gone a few miles.............
Georges
I am a right bad ass, dankish prince and I love my Violet to bits.
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Post by Byron »

G-d bless George and thank you. If anyone in this forum understands the problems caused by intransigence when people are doing their best to help, it is someone from your neck of the woods over there.
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Post by lizzytysh »

Byron ~

The word "dissing" means to disrespect another via your words or behaviour. To the best of my knowledge, it was popularized out of the black culture, where it is commonly used. My first contact with it was with the black street culture, with whom I often worked in the course of my job. It then showed up in black sitcoms a lot, for whatever reason, generally used by the black women more than by the black men....both on the street and in the sitcoms.

I can easily believe your explanation of the usage of pula, as I thought it could certainly be employed in that fashion, as people do with words, altering them just a tad, with a pula being one who pules.

~ Elizabeth
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Post by Byron »

Point of order. My dictionary does use the word Diss but it is hidden away in dis (also diss) US slang. meaning to put a person down or bad mouth them. I profer my apology for not scouring the dictionary to the Nth degree. None of my other dictionaries have diss in them.
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Post by Byron »

Can someone be good enough to count how many times I've apologised now?
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Post by Byron »

Churchill said we are the same people seperated by the same language. How right that is here in this thread. But I think an apology means the same thing on either side of the 'pond' ??
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Post by George.Wright »

You have no need to apologise for you have taken a moral and principled stance.
Forget it, Byron.
Georges
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Post by lizzytysh »

Yes, Byron....apology.....that's one word with a common meaning between us all. I'm not counting.....does the heart do such things, in cases such as yours?

I just got the below e-mailed to me from a Sufi woman in Gainesville [who also attended the peace rally]. Thought I'd share it as, again, I like what it says and it felt good to read it.

"PRAYER ING FOR PEACE

Pray to whoever you kneel down to:
Jesus nailed to his wooden or marble or plastic cross, his suffering face bent to kiss you,
Buddha still under the Bo tree in scorching heat, Yahweh, Allah, raise your arms to Mary that she may lay her palm on our brows, to Shekinhah, Queen of Heaven and Earth, to Inanna in her stripped descent.

Hawk or Wolf, or the Great Whale, Record Keeper of time before, time now, time ahead, pray. Bow down
to terriers and shepherds and Siamese cats. Fields of artichokes and elegant strawberries.

Pray to the bus driver who takes you to work, pray on the bus, pray for everyone riding that bus and for everyone riding buses all over the world. If you haven't been on a bus in a long time, climb the few steps, drop some silver, and pray.

Waiting in line for the movies, for the ATM, for your lattÈ and croissant, offer your plea. Make your eating and drinking a supplication.
Make your slicing of carrots a holy act, each translucent layer of the onion, a deeper prayer.

Make the brushing of your hair
a prayer, every strand its own voice,
singing in the choir on your head.
As you wash your face, the water slipping through your fingers, a prayer: Water, softest thing on earth, gentleness that wears away rock.

Making love, of course, is already a prayer. Skin and open mouths worshipping that skin, the fragile case we are poured into,
each caress a season of peace.

If you're hungry, pray. If you're tired.
Pray to Gandhi and Dorothy Day.
Shakespeare. Sappho. Sojourner Truth.
Pray to the angels and the ghost of your grandfather.

When you walk to your car, to the mailbox, to the video store, let each step be a prayer that we all keep our legs, that we do not blow off anyone else's legs. Or crush their skulls.

And if you are riding on a bicycle
or a skateboard, in a wheel chair, each revolution of the wheels a prayer that as the earth revolves
we will do less harm, less harm, less harm.

And as you work, typing with a new manicure, a tiny palm tree painted on one pearlescent nail or delivering soda or drawing good blood into rubber-capped vials, writing on a blackboard with yellow chalk, twirling pizzas, pray for peace.

With each breath in, take in the faith of those who have believed when belief seemed foolish, who persevered. With each breath out, cherish.

Pull weeds for peace, turn over in your sleep for peace,
feed the birds for peace, each shiny seed that spills onto the earth, another second of peace. Wash your dishes, call your mother, drink wine.

Shovel leaves or snow or trash from your sidewalk. Make a path. Fold a photo of a dead child around your VISA card. Gnaw your crust of prayer, scoop your prayer water from the gutter. Mumble along like a crazy person, stumbling your prayer through the streets.

Ellen Bass"
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Post by Byron »

As you know I recently spent some time in Laos.
98% of the population are Buddhists.
They live their lives like your friend's prayer.
In the midst of their military's overwhelming 'persuasive' tactics we saw real fear and terror.
At all other times we felt more at peace and in the most safest place on this Earth.
We have never been with people who were so genuinely pleased to be with us, total strangers, but all of us, children before our G-d.
He has many names and the simple people of Laos who strive to live off their land, as their ancestors have succeeded in doing for centuries, are more 'at one' with G-d and their fellow man than any collection of people I have ever encountered.
And I speak here as a Roman Catholic by convertion.
I was truly impressed by their Buddhist faith and way of life.
I find great difficulty in calling our way of life 'civilised,' after such a wonderful encounter.
Thank your friend for me, Elizabeth, for sharing and reinforcing my view of this G-d given world.
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Post by lizzytysh »

Dear Byron ~

Yes, I will relay your entire post to my friend as your way of thanking her yourself.

When I say "peace be with you" and "peace," I am saying it as an adult, over a quarter of a century beyond the Viet Nam War. With that time expanse, I have come to appreciate even more all that these words mean. I have, so fortunately, not had to personally witness the horrors of war in my land. My heart is with every soul who has.

The beauty and peace you have described that prevails in the Laotian people and their way of life, if they are left alone to just be aligns to perfection with what I have been told by a dear friend, whose three choices of countries to go, to live out his retirement years, when that occurs, were Laos, Mexico, and Canada. He remains in love with the Laotian people and their land. The dynamic of love that you describe is so simply powerful.

I am copying here an article posted on the Sony Discussion Board by a regular there. I am doing so because of the truths the writer brings to the realities of war, from the inside-out. It's intense, and very powerful in a different way, making it clear that by no means are all Americans in favour of what the government is doing in Iraq. Power and greed are the most phenomenal of corrupters. Much has been mowed down in their path and wake.

As I mentioned earlier, none of the veterans, who my friend spoke with at the V.A. Hospital the day she went to visit them before the peace rally, felt we should go to war in Iraq. Perhaps that's the difference between being under government care for war-related injuries, and being in the politicians' deep velvet seats. This is the article, written less than two weeks ago, about another American ~ a soldier ~ wanting peace:

"The Wall
By Alfred A. Hambidge, Jr
3-9-3

The snow was coming down pretty heavy as I walked towards the National Mall. I've always liked walking during a snowstorm; everything seems so quiet, every noise is muffled, even here in D.C. And this storm was a doozy, hammering much of the East Coast.
I don't know why, but I started heading for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. There weren't many people there; few visit during weather like this. As I walked by the panels, relishing the stillness, I came upon a man in fatigues. Though one of those floppy green hats covered his head, he seemed under dressed considering the cold.
The area around him was devoid of wind and snow, as if the Wall created a sheltered harbor from the storm. He was staring at one panel, at a spot about chest high. Upon my approach, he said to no one in particular, "Goddamn bastards are doing it again." The sound of his voice startled me; I flinched, and stopped. He turned to look at me.
"We never learn, do we?" he asked. My quizzical look made him chuckle, and he continued as he turned back toward the Wall: "It never ceases to amaze me what we let ourselves be turned into cannon fodder for. We let ourselves get talked into all sorts of horror, and only after the body bags start piling up do we begin to wonder why."
We both knew he had my attention now. "Know how many names are here?" he asked. "Something like 50,000," I replied. "You make it sound like a goddamn statistic" he said, "There's Fifty Eight Thousand Two Hundred And Twenty Nine names on this Wall." He said the words slowly, enunciating each one.
"Fifty Eight Thousand Two Hundred And Twenty Nine. Every one of them a son; a brother, or a father, a husband, a cousin, a lover, a neighbor, a friend. Fifty Eight Thousand Two Hundred And Twenty Nine boys brought home in boxes. For what? For fuckin' nothing. And now the bastards are gonna do it again."
"You mean Iraq ?" I asked. "That isn't gonna be for nothing. Saddam is dangerous, he has to be stopped."
The man could barely conceal his contempt. "Give me a break. A danger to who? Us here in the U.S. of A.? Is his navy off our coast? Is his air force flying over our cities? The only danger he poses is to his neighbors, maybe, and they're so worried about it that they're willing to let us die for them, but won't fight him themselves. And they want us to pay them for the privilege. With friends like that...." His voice trailed off. "Maybe you're right," he finally said, "this isn't for nothing. It's for oil."
My raised eyebrows made him shake his head, and he went on: "I don't know what's worse. Killing people over political philosophy, like in my time, or for oil. Hey, at least this time we might get something for our blood. Like ol' Tecumseh Sherman said, 'Nations go to war when there is something to be got by it'. Now oil can be got by it. After a great start, we're gonna be no different than any other empire that came down the historical pike.
"And I know what you're gonna say next. 'He sponsors terrorism'. Where's the proof? I thought we were going after bin Laden for that. But wait, Afghanistan ain't got any oil. So we need another monster, who's got something worth taking. And Saddam is so damn convenient. Yeah, he's an evil sonovabitch who deserves to be taken out, but are we the ones who should do it? Are our kids the ones who should die for it? Is he worth another Wall like this?
"And what the hell is terrorism, anyway? It's not a thing; it's not a place; it's not a person. It is a political and military strategy, that's all. Having a 'War On Terrorism' is as ridiculous as having a 'War on Flanking Maneuvers'. You'll end terrorism when there's no longer anything for anybody to get pissed off about."
"As for now, maybe if we looked at why people are pissed at us, we'd begin to understand. Hell, it doesn't matter whether they're right or wrong; it's what they perceive that motivates them. What you have to address is why they perceive things as they do. Only then will you start to get a clue. And spare me the bullshit about them hating us because of our freedom. We haven't been truly free in a long time. And now we're letting all this demagoguery convince us to give up what little liberty we have left. Big Brother Lives!
"Look at history, man. The Romans began with a republic, just like we did. The freedom and prosperity that followed made them complacent, apathetic. They became fat and happy, and mistakenly figured that government was responsible. Since their government was such a Good Thing, it didn't need watching, so few paid it any attention. Those with a knack for politics took advantage of that to increase their power, and also their stash. Eventually the republic degraded into an empire, and suffered the fate of all empires. They go broke trying to keep control of every place they've conquered.
"We're heading down the same road. Only this time, it's happening faster. It took three, four centuries for Rome to decline and fall. We might do it in three or four decades. Hell, maybe three or four years. Or months! Who the hell knows?"
He paused for a moment; I could see him trying to calm his breathing. He began to slowly read from the Wall, his eyes moving randomly over the panel. "David T. Hilton. William C. Langham. John A. Gibson. Richard Galan. Danny Lee Frye. Cecil D. Lamm. All these boys blown off the face of the Earth, because we just can't keep our noses out of what's happening on the other side of the world. Ever read George Washington's Farewell Address?"
I shook my head. "He told us not to concern ourselves with what other countries are doing to and amongst themselves. He said it would just get us mired in a big mess. But did we listen? Nooooo. He warned us! Jefferson warned us! Most all of the Founders warned us! John Quincy Adams, about thirty years later, said 'America does not go out in search of monsters to destroy.' Well, now we do, John Q.
"You know what I finally figured out? People don't start wars. Countries don't start wars. It's governments that start wars. Fuckin' governments. And we go along with it. Whenever you see a problem, social or economic or political, and think that government should do something about the problem, do a little homework and you'll probably find that government is the source of the problem. And war is just the epitome of government problem solving. So what if a majority thinks that this coming war is right. The majority is just something that government manufactures and manipulates to give the appearance of legitimacy to what government does.
"And as for those government bozos who say that those who question their plans and motives is unpatriotic and aiding the enemy, well, they can just kiss my ass."
I stared at the ground. Thirty years of fear, of doubt, of anger, of hurt, of rage, was coming out of him in a rush. It made me uncomfortable, but I couldn't move from that spot; I wanted him to continue. He seemed to sense this.
"You know what really galls me? How those that seem to yell loudest for war have never seen one. They've never seen a buddy disappear from the waist up after a shell hit, then see his legs stand there for a moment before falling over. They never saw a friend all psyched up about going home tomorrow after finishing his tour get hit in the belly with shrapnel, see his guts spill out, then watch him try to gather up his intestines lying in the dirt.
"They never saw what napalm does do a little girl's skin. They never saw a 19-year-old from Iowa screaming and writhing on the ground because a mine blew his legs off. They never saw a man take a bullet through the brain, then watch his body flop around on the ground for a minute or so because it doesn't realize he's dead. They never put pieces of someone into a bag, not knowing who it was until you read the tags, because there wasn't any face left to go along with the other parts. They haven't seen the shit I've seen, and they want to do it all over again. Those bastards!
"But what really makes me mad is how those who should know better seem to have forgotten. All those vets in Congress, POW's even, who know what I'm talking about, but will go along with the calls for war because it's politically expedient. Don't they remember? Do they really want another generation of kids to experience that shit? Have they gotten so accustomed to the trappings of power that people are just pawns, tools, mere things to be manipulated for their own ends? DO THEY KNOW WHAT THE FUCK THEY'RE DOING?
"But it doesn't matter. We'll let them do it anyway."
He began walking away, head up but eyes looking down. As he receded into the swirling snow, I saw him raise his face to the storm, toward Capitol Hill. "DAMN YOU BASTARDS!" was the last thing I heard as he disappeared into the white.
I turned to the panel next to me. The wind and snow came heavier now; I hunched my shoulders and lowered my face. My gaze fell upon names near the bottom. William R. Hunt. David F. Bowman. Hector L. Sanchez. David W. Wooden. Gary B. Jones. Oscar L. Thomas. Ramon Hernandez Torres. Thomas C. Mays. Woodrow D. Adler. Jonathan Blue Jr.
I wept."
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Post by tom.d.stiller »

never say never again...
I had decided to keep myself out of this thread, but I simply cannot let things go by quietly.
Paula, Elizabeth, George, Byron, I thank you for heartfelt contributions that deeply moved me. It would be far beyond my capacity to touch all the details that should be mentioned, so be it a mere generalization this time.
To those who keep throwing dirt instead of venturing arguments (you will recognize yourself, so i don't have to put up another list): In the end you might find that those you tried to stain will stand as immaculate as before, while your hands clearly show the mud you have been playing with.

This is by Dylan Thomas:

Was There A Time

Was there a time when dancers with their fiddles
In children's circuses could stay their troubles?
There was a time they could cry over books,
But time has set its maggot on their track.
Under the arc of the sky they are unsafe.
What's never known is safest in this life.
Under the skysigns they who have no arms
Have cleanest hands, and, as the heartless ghost
Alone's unhurt, so the blind man sees best.

With all my Love to all of you
Tom
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Post by vern.silver »

When I was young it was common for my family to sit around the table and debate world events, religion, politics after supper. At the age of eleven, there was more then one evening when we had resolved the worlds problems. :roll: My parents encouraged this, though these discussions could get quite heated at times.

Debate is a healthy thing. The discussion of issues and the presentation of arguments is how we learn. Not only about the world, but about each other, and ourselves.

Is it appropriate to have discussions such as this on this forum? Why not? It is, after all, a community of sorts, (though I'm a relatively new member of this online 'neighbourhood.') These discussions aren't only happening here. I did check out the Charlie Daniels site. Of course there's the Toby Keith site and the Dixie Chicks site where things are also quite heated.

I'm not really fans of either of them, though I don't mind Charlie Daniels.

I personnaly know very few people who post on this group except those whom I met on Hydra. And very few on this site know me well enough to judge who or what I am, or what I am about.

Yes, I do not believe that the US and it coalition of the willing are justfied at this time to be waging war against Iraq. They did not make their case. Regardless of the fact Germany, France, and Russia stated they would exercise their veto rights, many other countries involved in the security council did believe there was still time to try to make diplomacy work. Although the Us talks about the 40 or so countries now included in the 'coalition,' this is not even half of the countries that make up this world. And in many of these 40 countries it is their governments/leaders, and not the people who support it ( Turkey as an example.)

Much of the evidence presented by Powell a few weeks back as proof against Iraq has been proven to be false/forgeries. If they truley had proof they should have presented it to the security council rather than hide behind their need to protect their information sources. People are dying now. In a court of law, if you don't present your evidence, you don't get a conviction.

Don't think I am a Pacifist. I spent twenty years of my life as a reservist in Canada in an infantry unit. I did two brief tours in Europe with NATO. I supported the Gulf war in 1991. War is sometiimes necessary. I just don't believe that their is justification for this particular war at this particular time.

Their has been much comment on the usefulness of the United Nations and the Security Council. Yes, they are basically a cake with no icing. Why? Because it's not really an organization of united nations when 5 or 6 countries have permanent status/veto powers simply because of how powerful/wealthy they are. If it was truly a United Nations, all would be equal. This can only happen if these 5 or 6 stronger nation take a real leadership role - governed by the reasons the UN was borne from rather than self interest and power. And the US is not the only one guilty here! Even the smaller countries who waste their terms on the security council taint its posibilities.

I am quite disturbed by the way this discussion has taken such a poor turn by some of the participants. I know I'm opening myself up for vitriol here, but I went back and reread the whole thread to see where it began to take its down turn. As much as a few here seem to like to go after Lizzytish, in my rereading of this thread, the down turn came on the second page of the thread with this comment"

It is so sad American soldiers have to die and for what? Freedom for people like you. I would like to see all our troops called home, protect our own shores and let the rest of the world deal with their own problems and we with ours. - Linda
Then eeey joined in, attacking the people who posted rather than offering arguments to their views. In fact, I could not find any return barbs towards these two until page 11 when it seems Lizzytish seems to have had enough.

Comments like these in response to my recent posts :
vern.silver

Nice to hear from the CBC. Whose motto is: "Damn Americans...We hate the bastards!"

eeey
And
eeey, I was going to add something to that effect about the CBC but forgot in my post, I was happy to see your response. My sentiments exactly isn't it strange that these are the sources that are so highly regarded as accurate by some and all others are war mongers and what did you call Charlie Daniels Lizzyth? That question was ligitimate about his connection with LC but never mind I did my own research.
_________________
Linda
do not add to the debate. Simply detract from it and show the shallowness of those would would resort to it.

By the way, I certainly plan to let the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation(our National Public broadcaster) know it's motto, and of course that it doesn't stand up to such great broadcasters as Rush Limbaugh (who, by the way, I used to watch all the time - I never liked getting my information from one source and never liked to blindly believe anything any media source provided.)

I like to add to the debate as I had done in my previous posts. If as Linda had said, she could have cut and pasted from other sources, I wish she had. That would have been moree useful. Convince me I'm wrong. Take part in the debate.

In fact, the one article presented from the CBC site was an overview of a larger one from the Atlanta Journal Constitution:

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opinio ... okman.html

Read it and check out the links yourself.

As a last point, regarding the discussion re LC's view. If you think speaking out against the war won't have repercussions, what about the Dixie Chicks. Yes, the USA - land of Free Speach and Democracy.

Vern
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